Am I the only one who found Genesis and Angeal completely...

[OneWingedDemon]

That's not really a good comparison.
Senor Bale is as much an integral part of Batman as Joker, although I will admit that much of it was pretty much written around him. Can't help it, he is the supporting dude and the main antagonist.

The same cannot be said for Genesis. He only gets away with his shitty characterization because his role is not as integral.

And I know what Genesis DID in the story, Mako. You can save the entire fucking world, but a developed, fleshed out character it makes you not.

I'm not saying he wasn't given enough dialogue - god knows I couldn't stand him saying anything else. I'm saying it was bad, bland and generic and offered no insight that would have redeemed him.

Oh and btw, I'm not a Gack-hater. I've nothing against the guy. He amuses me and therefore I'm not trying to blame anything on anyone. I would have loved Genesis being played by gackt if only he was a decent character.

Unless you can conclusively prove that Gackt ended up influencing and changing what Genesis would've become, aside from his appearance, you're kinda speaking from no base.

I don't need SE to hold a press conference for that. Genesis is a flat, generic character that was given what he was because his voice-actor/inspiration is a big star in Japan. You are naive if you think any company would come out and say "Yeah, dude, that's totally why we did it," or if you think that it's not at least a factor. Seriously?

And if they didn't, it sure as hell looks like it, in whcih case it's still a failure on their part.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He's a fair comparison because he's an actor playing a leading role. And Genesis is one of the leading characters in Crisis Core. In the end, it's an actor playing a part. He's not as integral as Zack, Cloud, Sephiroth, or Aerith, but he's still a driving force of the narrative.

If you know what he did in the story, how can you say that Genesis puppeting and leading Sephiroth to the awful truth of his existence, in a manner similar to what Sephiroth did to Cloud isn't offering anything to the plot? Genesis is the catalyst that shows us the deeper meaning behind the conflict and angst Sephiroth demonstrates before going mad. In FFVII it was just "LOL I got nuts now" but in Crisis Core, there's an actual history and characterization to Sephiroth's loss of sanity. Crisis Core let's us see that Sephiroth was on the other end of the strings once.

Genesis is the reason Zack questions what exactly the "pride of a SOLDIER" is and in the end Zack makes Genesis understand (through Angeal's own teachings) the answer. Genesis serves as the anti-thesis to Sephiroth, both as SOLDIERs and as characters. He may have needed more fleshing out in terms of his own character, but he does a lot in Crisis Core and serves the purpose of antagonist dutifully. He's not flat, especially not flatter than Angeal Hewley.

And if you're not going to believe the words and actions S-E have stated in regards to Gackt's role in the development, then you're just closing your ears to believe whatever you want. You can have flat characters without lead J-Rock stars lending their voice talents.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9881#msg9881 date=1232491641]In FFVII it was just "LOL I got nuts now" but in Crisis Core, there's an actual history and characterization to Sephiroth's loss of sanity. Crisis Core let's us see that Sephiroth was on the other end of the strings once.
[/quote]

Genesis is mostly pointless in that regard. Sephiroth freaked out because he knew he was always "different" then confirms at Nibelheim, Jenova instincts kick-in, and we have one screwed up individual.

Genesis playing Sephiroth like a fool feels like the character's been shoehorned into the story.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Agreed. I actually like Genesis and I liked the scene, but I felt it was really forced. It feels like they're just trying to give Genesis some importance to the main storyline. Frankly, I'd have much more enjoyed him being the monster that pops out of the casing, all gross and destoried, and try to take out Sephiroth, which makes Sephiroth think more about the concept of his friend becoming a monster, and therefore is he himself one too.

The whole apple thing was just...blah.

 

[Masamune]

Hehe, I know I've said it before but it cracks me up that the Mako monster just pops out dead in CC. Talk about an anti-climax.

Sephiroth: It's alive! It's alive! IT'S...

Mako monster: x_x

Sephiroth: ...Nevermind

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I really did feel that Genesis's presence in the storyline was pretty bad. Genesis clones, apples, and the G Project and all that nonsense? They integrated it in the story alright enough, but it was just dumb. They should have replaced the Genesis army shit with the old AVALANCHE or Wutai or something. What a waste.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Again, to think Sephiroth is an invulnerable god before he hits godhood is unreasonable. That's not human or real.

Sephiroth suddenly flipping out and rejecting his humanity and status at just looking at a mako monster in a window and questioning for the first time out of nowhere, "Am I like these things?" makes no sense. Why would he flip out at just one questioning of his existence? If his sanity was that fragile, why would the fact that he's stronger than everyone else, has no parents, was raised by a company, and has almost no peers, not set off the red flags that something is wrong with him?

Why would Sephiroth be sent to the location where the top secret notes and files of his birth are housed? Why no one else? Why did the reactor malfunction? Where were the people who manned the reactor? FFVII's telling was not perfect. At all.

The original FFVII has Sephiroth's sanity resting precariously on the edge of a cliff. Crisis Core gives us a much more believable scenario of him slowly losing it based on the experiences of his life, with Nibelheim being the final straw. It makes no sense for a public hero to be so batshit insane, with sanity as fragile as glass.

It's extremely unrealistic for someone to just flip out and lose it after one incident unless they're already suffering from some mental illness in the first place. ]

@Notorious M.O.G.

You don't get the added dynamic of Sephiroth being led around by having Genesis replaced with normal anti-shinra elements. That's not the point of Genesis. He's to offset Sephiroth and serve as his mirror.

You don't like Genesis, yeah, that's understood. But for Crisis Core to do what it wanted to do, you can't just replace him. You have to fix it. Genesis had an important role to fill that wasn't just slid right in for the reasons stated above.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You don't get the added dynamic of Sephiroth being led around by having Genesis replaced with normal anti-shinra elements. That's not the point of Genesis. He's to offset Sephiroth and serve as his mirror.

You don't like Genesis, yeah, that's understood. But for Crisis Core to do what it wanted to do, you can't just replace him. You have to fix it. Genesis had an important role to fill that wasn't just slid right in for the reasons stated above.

Oh, don't get me wrong! The concept of Genesis and even Angeal were great! I thought it was a good move for SE to write in additional 1st Classes to serve as peers, and in the case of Genesis, serve as a mirror to Sephiroth and whatnot.

However I did not like the execution. In theory it was great, but in practice Genesis turned out to be a flat poem ranting dude and I thought the whole Genesis clone army thing was just retarded. Genesis didn't have to be REPLACED by Wutai or old AVALANCHE, but it was certainly possible for SE to write in another adversary for Zack/Seph/etc to do their story AND have Genesis fill his role without the LOVELESS and clone army crap.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I thought Genesis was just a bit too poetic without a cause. Perhaps they needed to flesh him out more for me to think him a believable and a character worthy of such a significant point in the story.

I also lol @ the monster being dead. It was wasted potential.

I'm glad that CC fleshed Sephiroth out more, gave him friends, thoughts and motives, but I think they were a bit messy with some of this. I think Sephiroth has been missing a few screws for a very long time, being on the edge of disaster for years. All this that happens is just the straw that broke the camel's back and all that.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9905#msg9905 date=1232492887]
Again, to think Sephiroth is an invulnerable god before he hits godhood is unreasonable. That's not human or real.[/quote]

Genesis was unnecessary because Sephiroth already had deep unresolved issues. He was just hiding them until he found out the truth. The fact he says he always thought he was different drops the biggest hint of all. Nibelheim confirms everything he feared, and so loses his sense of self, and Jenova influences his personality with destructive and violent tendencies, all the while drawing him back to Jenova's whereabouts (Reunion).

So I don't know what your point is. You say Sephiroth already had emotional problems. Yes he did, FFVII confirmed that. All CC did is throw a needless character on top of it.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I thought Genesis was just a bit too poetic without a cause.

Thank you.

Whether you like the idea of genesis or not, the finished product does not work. I don't think Genesis adequately did what he was supposed to, as I previously said. I GET what they were trying to do, but that does not justify their poor execution and lack of characterization.

FFVII was not incomplete without CC. Things made sense before CC came around, so I don't get this "LOL he didn't make sense before"
It expanded on it. It did't radically change all preconceived notions, otherwise FF would have been a failure to begin with.

All CC did is throw a needless character on top of it.

I wonderz why

 

[Restless]

I guess I'm in the minority who didn't mind LOVELESS or find Genesis annoying. I mean, I could certainly see why he would be annoying. I just wasn't annoyed.

Maybe in the next compilation installment Genesis will be fleshed out more. I have ideas about why he might like LOVELESS--he had issues dealing with who he was and how everything just seemed so hopeless. In LOVELESS, the goddess is shown to be the one who can fix all of that. Therefore, Genesis, seeing it as a mirror of his life, clung to it and recited it when the words and scenes matched up. And maybe he just liked poetry a little too much ;D

As for why he was needed...He had a specific reason. He was Sephiroth's friend, and one of his only ones at that. Genesis betrays Shinra and, unlike Angeal, comes back to tell Sephiroth that they are both monsters. Friendship is important, especially to a guy who had no loving parents, any other friends, or someone who could even reasonably explain what was happening.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Having deep unresolved issues, isn't the same as examining them and making them realistic. Your resistance to them actually fleshing out Sephiroth's character and making him human, doesn't serve to actually make Sephiroth a protagonist or relatable at all. That's keeping him boxed in, in the same role as the aloof, cold hearted SOLDIER 1st Class in FFVII. The face Tifa saw in Nibelheim.

Again, you don't go nuts after one questioning of your existence. FFVII doesn't demonstrate that he pent up his feelings, Jenova influenced his personality, or that he was slowly wanting to turn his back to Shinra.

I agree with M.O.G. that Genesis was a very good concept, and while I think the execution could've been better, had Crisis Core been longer and given us a deeper look at Genesis's own personal conflict.

And Genesis's obsession with LOVELESS is twofold if you examine it. For one, it's again, a reflection of Sephiroth and his obsession with the Reunion, the planet and becoming a god. Genesis's obsession with LOVELESS in Crisis Core is due to him believing it was the key to finding a way to cure his degeneration. The whole point of his rebellion and war against Shinra was to recreate LOVELESS. It was why he put everyone he knew through hell and back.

He believed LOVELESS was not only a poem, but a message from the planet itself in regards to obtaining "The Gift of the Goddess." The source of life, and the only way to save his failing life. He was obsessed with recreating LOVELESS in order to find the Gift of the Goddess...Just like Sephiroth was obsessed with achieving the Reunion and obtaining the key to becoming God.

And in the end, both of them achieve their goal. However, for Genesis, the answer he comes up with is not what he thought it'd be. First he thought it was Jenova, then the thought it was the Lifestream, and finally he realizes it was within him all along. The Pride of a SOLDIER. And that's thanks to Zack.

@OnewingedDemon

No, FFVII wasn't perfectly complete, to think it had no plotholes or portions where the storytelling was weak, is unrealistic. I've listed several holes and questions regarding Nibelheim already that FFVII never answered. A story can have holes and still be a success.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

A story can have holes and still be a success

I like this point in particular.

FF7 had plotholes. Big ones. It still was a majestic story, but it left many unanswered questions. CC may not have been a necessity for FF7, but it helped a lot for those who wanted more, who wanted to understand more.

Genesis was an interesting character, but he lacked development in my opinion. Sure, we get glimpses into what he's like, but there's a huge chunks of his life and motives that's left missing. Maybe that's because CC couldn't fit it in, and maybe we'll get more later, but to me, Genesis is an excellent idea that dosen't achieve its complete intent. I would loved to have seen more and given much more to judge it by.

As for Sephiroth...Back in FF7 we've got Cloud's POV. Not Sephiroth's. So we don't need to fully understand Sephiroth's path or motives. To do so would divide interest and loyalty from Cloud, the main protangonist. But in CC the point is to flesh Sephiroth out more (obviously along with Zack) and give a much more complete view of things. To add these scenes to FF7 would derail the writing and to leave them out of CC would destory one of the points of the game.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

To add these scenes to FF7 would derail the writing

Eh, I wouldn't say that.

 

[Masamune]

Having deep unresolved issues, isn't the same as examining them and making them realistic.

Sephiroth wasn't quite right behind that cold facade, which FFVII covered. You don't need to throw a bunch of plot devices at something to put a point across. Hints like "I've always felt since I was small… That I was different from the others. Special, in some way. But…not like this…" don't take a lot of working out.

Do we really need a little devil on his shoulder for good measure?

Again, you don't go nuts after one questioning of your existence.

I think you do if you've never known who you are and find out you could be part of a grim experiment, yeah.

 

[Strangelove]

If you read about some of the more musical traits they were going to give Genesis (like humming or piano playing), it does seem like they were getting some influence from Gackt and his main career.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a vague, gloss overing of a character who's not meant to be seen as a genial hero, or human. That can work for a character who's a villain, but if Crisis Core's point is to show the human side of Sephiroth, that's not enough, and it's obvious.

That's not throwing plot devices, that's just fleshing out a character.

And no...you just don't flip out. That's not real. People don't go 180 in terms of sanity unless they're schizophrenic or already mentally unbalanced. And if one's a heroic, battle hardened, popular hero, you aren't just so mentally fragile you go nuts at just one showing. He'd have been nuts ages ago when he grew up in Shinra, realized everyone was different from him, and he was a dog of the military.

Writing a human Sephiroth like that creates more holes, than filling them.

@Daryl

I totally agree. FFVII was only from Cloud and Tifa's point of view. They are hardly the right sources of showing Sephiroth as a human being and member of SOLDIER. To keep to their interpretation and perspective would hardly do Sephiroth's character justice or show him as human at all.

Crisis Core gives us a closer, more realistic look into the fall of Sephiroth as a hero.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9949#msg9949 date=1232495784]
That's a vague, gloss overing of a character who's not meant to be seen as a genial hero, or human. That can work for a character who's a villain, but if Crisis Core's point is to show the human side of Sephiroth, that's not enough, and it's obvious.[/quote]

Please explain how that justifies Genesis? We can show different sides to Sephiroth's character without having to change his fall from grace.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]And no...you just don't flip out. That's not real. People don't go 180 in terms of sanity unless they're schizophrenic or already mentally unbalanced.[/quote]

Although I disagree strongly that only schizos can flip their personality, Sephiroth was obviously not mentally strong. You don't think some trained soldiers have deep-rooted issues even though they risk their lives? Now imagine you're someone who's never known anything about your past other than vague references, and out of the blue you realize you could be some freakshow experiment? If that was something buried deep into your subconcious, I think it's fair to say the chances of freaking out are pretty high.

Btw, are you conveniently forgetting all this happened in FFVII anyway? It's funny, because you'd probably be making these same points if we weren't contesting ze Compilation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Genesis is justified because he's part of the element of Sephiroth...falling from grace. He's part of the cause. It's through his actions, that we see Sephiroth going through much the same confusion Cloud did, which...just like Cloud, results in his personality breaking. It makes the antagonism and cruelty Sephiroth inflicts upon Cloud all the more personal because...he's been through similar circumstances as well. It's an ironic connection and truth about Sephiroth's past.

And there's mentally fragile, and then just wigging out. Sephiroth wigged out in the most explosive and unimaginable way possible. Again, if you're that mentally fragile and sensitive to the prospect of you "not being normal" then the red flags of you being super powered, not having a family, having no past or hometown, being bred as an instrument of war, and having no friends should've clued you in. The fact FFVII's Sephiroth never once questions that, but then freaks out at the site of one monster, is a plot hole. That's not showing Sephiroth descent into madness, that's showing Sephiroth flipping out.

And no, I'm not forgetting this happened in FFVII, but they weren't expanded upon either.

@hitoshura

The fact they rejected the ideas, and did their own says enough. They were willing to listen but in the end, they did their own thing.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Sephiroth wigged out in the most explosive and unimaginable way possible. Again, if you're that mentally fragile and sensitive to the prospect of you "not being normal" then the red flags of you being super powered, not having a family, having no past or hometown, being bred as an instrument of war, and having no friends should've clued you in. The fact FFVII's Sephiroth never once questions that, but then freaks out at the site of one monster, is a plot hole. That's not showing Sephiroth descent into madness, that's showing Sephiroth flipping out.

I always thought Sephiroth knew something was wrong with him from the beginning.
I was always different he says. There's that bitter remark about Hojo, there's him asking Cloud what it is to have a hometown. The distance he keeps from the rest of the world was already shown to us in FFVII. The bitterness over his past, the anger.
So, it wasn't a complete 180.

I think FFVII showed us pretty much what CC did, except in much less time and dialogue. Now don't get me wrong. CC did expand on shit and show us more stuff on Seph, but it didn't really change my views by much. Yes, FFVII did not show us his past, but it did gives us an idea of what it may have been through his own reactions/interactions with others.

Now, I'm not psychic, so FFVII must have done something right if I was able to get a relatively accurate picture of Sephiroth with the info given to me.

You act as if before CC Sephiroth just went "HA! I'm eval now, bitches!" and I don't think that's the case.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Crisis Core changed my view of Sephiroth a lot.

All those things about Hojo and him feeling different aren't enough for him to suddenly just go homicidal without there being some substance to it. Sephiroth didn't fully know Hojo aside from disliking him (like most people did). You can think you're different, but it's going to take a lot more than that to finally make you snap and go on a killing spree, destroy a village, and just go apeshit like he did.

You can't make it fit that Sephiroth just decided after one direct incident to go on a mass killing spree, abandon his title and honor, betray and kill his friends and comrades, and get the crazy idea of being a "savior" with his alien mommy and kill the planet. Unless he was already insane and unhinged like Hojo.

So maybe it wasn't a 180, I'll give it a 172

Crisis Core showed us what FFVII did, but from a different perspective that showed us more of Sephiroth as a comrade in arms and hero. It showed us his character aside from him being the terror he became in FFVII and AC. Saying FFVII already did that perfectly is giving the original way too much credit. FFVII is entirely about Sephiroth the villain, with a glimpse of the cold Sephiroth from Cloud and Tifa's already biased viewpoint.

And you being able to get a general idea of what CC showed us doesn't mean FFVII told you, you just filled in the *holes* with your own imagination that happened to fit what the creators wanted to do.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Mako, I totally agree with you. However, we wouldn't have needed CC is the original game had done a better job of showing the reason behind Seph's madness.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

So maybe it wasn't a 180, I'll give it a 172

LOL I don't think FFVII gave us a perfect picture of his character, not in the way CC did, and I didn't expect it considering who's POV it is from.

Saying that I somehow managed to match SE's story with my imagination doesn't cut it: I didn't have any profound insight into his character that was really radicallly different from others'. Seph isn't that original a character, despite my love for him.

I'm not saying CC offered nothing new - I'm saying that although FFVII did not offer a complete picture, it did give me enough clues to lead me in the right direction where Sephiroth's character was concerned.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hence my earlier statement; while I enjoyed CC a lot, FF7 should have covered it and CC wouldn't have needed to exist in the first place. 'Extra' titles in franchises and universes we love can be fun, but a game shouldn't 'need' a supplemental title to flesh out a main character.