Am I the only one who found Genesis and Angeal completely...

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think FFVII *intended* to show us a human Sephiroth in the first place. In fact, I bet they wanted to do the latter, hence his cold personality before he went nuts.

No other FF has tried to show us as many facets to their respective protagonist. You don't see FFVIII having a prequel showing us Ultimecia's kinder, motherly side, or FFV showing Enuo's stint in white magic and healing the sick.

Sephiroth is unique because he's popular and they figured it'd be a way to give him more backstory and reason to showcase him more.

So saying FFVII should've done it is kinda saying it should've done something it never wanted to do in the first place. In FFVII, Sephiroth is a perfect *antagonist* but now he's more than that.

And yeah, while FFVII gave clues, clues don't make a full backstory. Which was what Crisis Core was out for. Clues and hints don't fill a hole in a character's history or characterization. They can allow fans to substitute their own ideas to fill in said holes, but in the end, its still a hole.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, you just said that the original FF7 had a lot of holes. If the original story had filled those holes in the first place, that would be one less reason that CC would needed to exist.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, you're right. But I think those holes were probably left because they had no intention or foresight into looking at Sephiroth's other side.

It'd have been best if they answered the other questions regarding the incident but again, FFVII isn't perfect.

And regarding Genesis, he may not be perfect (in fact, hell, I know he isn't) but saying he offers nothing is pretty extreme and diminishes what they *did* get right. I don't like Seifer Almsay much at all in FFVIII but I have to acknowledge he serves his part and is a major contributor to FFVIII as a whole.

 

[looneymoon]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=279.msg9988#msg9988 date=1232500627]
Hence my earlier statement; while I enjoyed CC a lot, FF7 should have covered it and CC wouldn't have needed to exist in the first place. 'Extra' titles in franchises and universes we love can be fun, but a game shouldn't 'need' a supplemental title to flesh out a main character.
[/quote]

I dunno, I agree with OWD. While CC added alot of introspection on Sephiroth not present in the original FF7, it wasn't really a necessary inclusion. The orignal already gave us enough to fill in the gaps. I mean honestly, I don't think CC vastly altered Sephiroth's character, and throughout the whole compilation his general character never really changed, despite knowing alot more about him.

IMO it's more about people wanting to learn more about Sephiroth vs there actually being a necessity to show more. Even after Crisis Core, there is still *shrug*

And yeah, while FFVII gave clues, clues don't make a full backstory. Which was what Crisis Core was out for. Clues and hints don't fill a hole in a character's history or characterization. They can allow fans to substitute their own ideas to fill in said holes, but in the end, its still a hole.

I never really thought of it as a hole per se. Sephiroth's insanity in FF7 doesn't go against any sort of consistency or flow of logic. Without the clues, I'd agree it would be a hole. But since there are clues, I don't see how the whole ordeal is totally perplexing.

and it's not fair to say Genesis/Angeal add nothing because they definitely do add something, I just don't think they really needed to. The fact that they did doesn't detract from the overall story or anything though.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I dunno, I agree with OWD. While CC added alot of introspection on Sephiroth not present in the original FF7, it wasn't really a necessary inclusion.

That's...what I said.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then you need to also remember the Compilation isn't needed anyways.

People seem to think that the Compilation is filling some "need" that FFVII originally didn't and that's not the case. It's for fun, and it's including things to include them. They're being put in to enrich, and expand the already told story.

Crisis Core did change Sephiroth's character quite a bit if you think about what they showed us.

Have we ever seen Sephiroth angst over friends? Have we seen Sephiroth choose not to point his blade at a comrade because he just couldn't bring himself to? Have we seen him smile warmly and genuinely? Have seen him joke around? Have we seen what he does for fun? Have we seen Sephiroth vulnerable and alone?

Crisis Core gives us *a lot* of Sephiroth we've never seen. Saying it doesn't is like saying we didn't see a lot of Zack either.

We didn't need to see it, but as with all in the Compilation, it's done because it sure wouldn't hurt.

As for his madness, I still maintain it's completely unrealistic to believe that after one direct examination and questioning of his existence, it's bizarre for him to wig out and go on a massacre. Seriously. You don't see people suddenly going homicidal and babbling delusions of grandeur unless they're schizophrenic. And for Sephiroth to go from sane to mad in a day is not real.

A telling that gradually shows the events and circumstances of his madness is better and more realistic than someone who just "snaps." People don't snap, contrary to what the media and other crap would have you believe.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I agree entirely, Mako.

No CC wasn't a necessity. But yes it does expand on FF7. I didn't need CC to clarify things I didn't already know or couldn't have figured out on my own. But it does give a bigger picture of the different players in the game. Neither Zack and Sephiroth got a lot of definition in FF7--and they shouldn't have either. Cloud's the focus in the story, and since he is, spending a lot of time on either Zack of Sephiroth would divert from the purpose of the story--to tell Cloud's story.

CC is about enrichening the whole compilation, as Mako said. It gives us more to enjoy, more to dispute, and more to debate, as we are here.

 

[looneymoon]

Sorry MOG, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the opposite of... what you were saying

Have we ever seen Sephiroth angst over friends? Have we seen Sephiroth choose not to point his blade at a comrade because he just couldn't bring himself to? Have we seen him smile warmly and genuinely? Have seen him joke around? Have we seen what he does for fun? Have we seen Sephiroth vulnerable and alone?

Crisis Core gives us *a lot* of Sephiroth we've never seen. Saying it doesn't is like saying we didn't see a lot of Zack either.

We didn't need to see it, but as with all in the Compilation, it's done because it sure wouldn't hurt.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. I didn't think Crisis Core had the best of stories, but I still liked it because it gives us more introspection on a character that didn't get a whole lot in the original. I mean, the original already gave an idea of how and why is happened, Crisis Core just elaborated on everything and made it explicit.

It's like the whole Zack/Aeris stuff going on in CC. It's implied in FF7 that they were more than just a fling, but CC just elaborates and solidifies it. That doesn't mean it wasn't there before.

er... basically what Vampire Hunter D said. His post was already after I wrote this part

As for his madness, I still maintain it's completely unrealistic to believe that after one direct examination and questioning of his existence, it's bizarre for him to wig out and go on a massacre. Seriously. You don't see people suddenly going homicidal and babbling delusions of grandeur unless they're schizophrenic. And for Sephiroth to go from sane to mad in a day is not real.

A telling that gradually shows the events and circumstances of his madness is better and more realistic than someone who just "snaps." People don't snap, contrary to what the media and other crap would have you believe.

I felt that this section was a little lacking compared to the rest of the game, but I also didn't think it was too much of a leap of logic either. We know that he's had issues since he was a kid, and that he was basically raised in a lab, and Nibelheim was his breaking point. I mean, I'd say there was certainly enough to make it understandable. Maybe not completely realistic, but there was some sort of sense behind it. I just disagree with calling it a plot hole is all.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

She. *chuckles*

I don't think Sephiroth's action in FF7 were so shocking, tbh. You get a lot of hints that things just ain't right with him, and honestly, most villians in most games don't give you much more than that (if that). We're not meant to understand the reasonings behind Sephiroth's action in FF7--just to see him as a villian and thus, Cloud's opponent.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

We're not meant to understand the reasonings behind Sephiroth's action

While I understand what you mean by this particular statement, I have to say that not giving any reason for someone being evil, or doing evil things is usually bad writing, especially in more complex stories.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Joker. Kefka. There are some really great villians that work better when you're given only a small amount of inkling into their motives. Sephiroth's given more than some, and less than others, which, IMO, is actually a good amount. If you focused too much on Sephiroth in FF7 the reader might develop sympathy for him which kills the loyalty the gamer is to have for Cloud.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well yeah, it depends on the individual and story. Sometimes it can work great! But it shouldn't be a rule. Take Xenogears for example, it wouldn't fly if it was concluded that Id was just FUCKIN' CRAZY and Grahf was just FUCKIN' EVIL. Usually, motives and reasoning should be explained.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Agreed. Some villians would fall flat on their face without having the backstory. I just happen to think that in this particular case that they didn't necessarily need more to make FF7's story believable. It's great to have it expounded on, but not a necessity, IMO.

 

[looneymoon]

Ah, sorry, she Silly internets and gender ambiguity.

I think the contention with Sephiroth among the fandom is that he's sort of an in-between character. He's not quite a sympathetic villain, but he still has a sense of almost understandable motivation. Thus there are many who feel sorry for him (when he's really not the type of villain you're supposed to feel sorry for) and those who just think he's simply batshit (when there are reasons for him being crazy). He doesn't fit into either extreme, so there's sort of balanced way of looking at his character. You can't go too indepth to the point where he's too human, nor to the point where he's too inhuman.

 

[ForceStealer]

Precisely looney. He is a tragic villain by definition, but he's still evil. Crisis Core solidified what I understood about what could have made him go nuts and that maybe not everything was his fault. But that doesn't change the fact that the blood of hundreds are on his hands, not the least of which are Cloud's mother and Aeris.

And in that regard, I think Sephiroth is sorta unique as a villain. And come on, that's no small feat for Final Fantasy,

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think ExDeath is more of a tragic villain than Sephiroth.

 

[ForceStealer]

I agree, he is, but he's got a lame name.

 

[Masamune]

All those things about Hojo and him feeling different aren't enough for him to suddenly just go homicidal without there being some substance to it. Sephiroth didn't fully know Hojo aside from disliking him (like most people did). You can think you're different, but it's going to take a lot more than that to finally make you snap and go on a killing spree, destroy a village, and just go apeshit like he did.

The man is half-alien, or rather a homicidal one who kills out of pure instinct. I think that has something to do with it.

I get the impression you're someone from the 'MOAR IS MOAR' school of thought, and that there's something wrong with letting the audience piece the story together themselves. It's not like we're grasping at straws here. Myself and OWD already said that Sephiroth drops enough hints. There's nothing vague about his character in that respect. He may have been a hero, but he was a standoffish man who obviously had no idea who he really was. It's not as if Hojo & Lucretia don't reaffirm all this anyway.

Genesis: Pitiful Sephiroth---You've never meet your mother and the only thing
you ever heard was her name right? I have no idea what she looks like, but what
I do know is---

^ This for example, was going through Sephiroth's head anyway. Putting Genesis there was really forced and an excuse to give the character more screentime.

 

[ForceStealer]

It DID set Sephiroth up for his most badass line while he was still sane though

I get what you mean, but they did kinda need to get Genesis more screen time, especially one in which he speaks with his own words. And I had to give them credit for sticking Genesis in the one place where it wouldn't retcon anything because Cloud wouldn't have known about it anyway.

So again, I agree with what you're saying, but I feel like that wasn't there to tell us anything about Sephiroth, but rather Genesis. In that scene we see Genesis get his digs on the hero of whom he was envious, despite idolizing him before joining SOLDIER.

Frankly, I thought it was odd that Genesis would antagonize the man before asking for his help.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, piecing together vague clues and hints to Sephiroth's character is not substantial enough exposition to show an entirely new or hidden facet to his character. You're again focusing on only one portion of what Crisis Core's depiction of Sephiroth showed us and riding on the Nibelheim Incident and how Genesis effected it. That's not all of it. FFVII's fuzzy flashback doesn't show Sephiroth valuing his friends. It instead shows him coldly telling the others to press on at the loss of a trooper. It doesn't show Sephiroth's reluctance to take up swords against his fellow friends. It doesn't show any of the positive aspects of his personality that we were shown in Crisis Core. It doesn't show him as a human.

You can't say FFVII hinted or let you piece together the positive aspects of his humanity. It left that out, and had many holes regarding his past. And it certainly didn't let you piece together or figure out how he hardened and lost that light thanks to the betrayals of Shinra and actions of Genesis. And way to go at picking the one line that really doesn't showcase any of that. The entire point of that scene is again, to mirror the manipulation and puppetry Sephiroth inflicted upon Cloud, having him doubt the validity of his existence.

The fact that Sephiroth endured the same angst and was being led to the shocking, and horrible truth, just like Cloud serves to add a whole new ironic, and darkly humorous facet to his past. You're calling Genesis a forced addition without acknowledging what his addition *does* or its entire point in the narrative. He isn't just THERE; his context within the story is extremely justified, if not implemented perfectly or to its full potential.

That's something that the original FFVII never hinted at or expounded upon.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I get the impression you're someone from the 'MOAR IS MOAR' school of thought, and that there's something wrong with letting the audience piece the story together themselves.

You know, this is true!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to ask for what you're saying is true. Are you saying it's true that I'm from the "MOAR IS MOAR" school of thought, there's nothing wrong with letting the audience piece the story together themselves, or that there's something wrong with letting the audience piece the story together themselves?

Kinda not sure what you're saying now

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The first part, haha.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I just believe that a story can't just write itself. I believe in letting readers and players figure things out for themselves within reason. But the original FFVII isn't going to let you piece together an entirely new facet to Sephiroth's character. And it isn't going to let you piece together all the answers to the plot holes or...*ahem*...mysteries contained within.

I thought a bad story was one that put the burden of piecing together and figuring out the story on the reader. Mystery and subtlety is good, but its all about balance. You can't just leave a page blank and let someone write in their own thoughts themselves. It can be fun in the short term but in the end, it's just not telling a story.

The bit with Lazard was an example of the story doing a good job at letting the player put the pieces together themselves. Without ever actually saying it, it told us Lazard was Shinra's bastard son. Another would be the mystery of who gave out the email addresses and information on SOLDIER to Godo in Wutai?

Those work because they DO give hints that allow the reader to fill all the gaps.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, that's true! I agree. There are also stories that rely on the players imaginations to fill those gaps (Shadow of the Colossus)