Attack on Titan/Shingeki no Kyojin (beware unmarked spoilers)

[Theozilla]

I already stated my thoughts on the final chapter/ending, but for those curious these are my thought on the Isayama/series' controversies in general:

Spoiler: under the cut for length

While I personally think that there isn’t enough evidence to declare that the @migiteorerno Twitter was Isayama’s private account, the seldomusings WordPress blog (https://seldomusings.wordpress.com) wasn’t exactly pulling claims out of thin air, there was some circumstantial evidence that was enough for the blogger (and many others) to be convinced of said accusation. And it’s not like the seldomusings blogger had it out for Isayama or anything, part of why they wrote the blog post was that they were surprised by the possibility that @migiteorerno could be Isayama, because they didn’t think the Attack on Titan series reflected the sentiments of the @migiteorerno account (similar to how many people end up finding out about the Ender’s Game series and Orson Scott Card’s bigoted views).

But even discounting the @migiteorerno controversy, in regard to the Dot Pixis design, while Akiyama Yoshifuru may not have been guilty of crimes on the level of someone like Hideki Tojo, he was still a Japanese Imperial general and thus still complicit with many of the atrocities committed in the name of the Japanese Empire. As such, it’s understandable why many Koreans (and others) would still take offense to such a design choice made by Isayama, plus Isayama’s comment of "I respect for leading such a simple and frugal life" regarding Yoshifuru. Also, apparently the year AoT first came out as a manga was the same year a Japanese mini-series on Yoshifuru was broadcasted on Japanese television (that portrayed him as a "complex" figure, like how a lot of contemporary USA media portrays the founding fathers as moral characters). Which I wouldn't be surprised influenced Isayama’s design choice/comments on Yoshifuru.

Furthermore, Mikasa was also named after an Imperial Japanese Battleship that served during the Russo-Japan War. While it is true that the practice of naming anime/manga characters after Imperial era vehicles is a not uncommon practice (like Evangelion is chalk full of such examples, e.g.,https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VehicularThemeNaming ) it’s at best still a questionable creative trope in Japanese creatives.

Also Erwin Smith, while significantly inspired by a Watchmen character (and a performer from a Paris Hilton music video), was also almost assuredly (I don’t recall if Isayama ever officially commented on this or not, I only know secondary sources have said Isayama stated such, but I personally have never seen the primary source from Isayama himself) partially based on Erwin Rommel, a German commander from WWII, who is popularly known for being forced to commit suicide (the actual date of which is Erwin Smith’s fictional birthday, October 14th) due to his involvement in a failed plot to assassinate Hitler, but his actual legacy and moral character is, to put it lightly, far more complicated/ethically incriminating. The pop cultural rehabilitation of Rommel is actually a relatively well-known phenomenon in historian/academic circles dubbed the “Rommel myth” (look it up to learn more, plus the Holocaust Museum’s entry on Rommel https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/erwin-rommel ). While it is relatively likely Isayama is another individual whose main knowledge of Rommel was through said myth, it is still another irresponsible/not good creative choice and gaffe made by Isayama.

And while I think that the text of the Attack on Titan series is pretty critical of issues like nationalism, militarism, and racial oppression, etc. The narrative isn’t without its issues, most notably the choice of making there be a “reason” for the Eldians oppression (an unfortunately relatively common trope to other fantasy and sci-fi media, in both anime and superhero works, like the X-Men). Which is better explained by this critic

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/990398895795531776

And regardless of whether or not Isayama intentionally was drawing from Zionist conspiracy theories to create the backstory for the Eldians, even if the modern day Eldians are portrayed as the "good guys"/unjustly oppressed. Like Jacob Chapman said, it’s still giving a "reason" for the oppression, like the X-Men, but the real-world context/imagery/symbolism makes it even more irresponsible/not great.

While such gaffes may be excusable/not a breaking point/not a deciding factor to some, it isn’t unbelievable that it wouldn’t be for others. Like the series itself, the Isayama controversy isn’t a black-and-white issue either, and while I personally feel like there isn't enough evidence to declare Isayama and/or his manga as categorically far-right wing manga, at least intentionally on the creator's part.

I really think so many interpretations of the series' subtext, really require a presumption of whether or not one believes that Twitter account was Isayama's or not. Because if it was, I can totally agree that the subtext has likely been far-right sympathetic, but if it wasn't (and I personally think there isn't enough evidence to say that it is/was) I think it indicates more Isayama being really irresponsible/clumsy in his use of imagery.

So ultimately, I personally don't believe that the series espouses ideas that fascism and nationalism are good, but it's full of clumsily used metaphors and equivalences that can and are misconstrued by progressives and conservatives alike. It's a mess, but I’ve found it to be a compelling mess.

 

[Odysseus]

Sometimes it is good to remember that it isn't meant to be a 1/1 parallel, and that the story has its own history to deal with. Japan clumsily appropriating real world issues isn't new, anyway. Remember when the KKK was in Earthbound? lol.

At the very least, AoT's more extreme right wing fans (the "yeagerists") very much hate how the story turned out, so I can't say it was made to please them.

 

[Theozilla]

Sometimes it is good to remember that it isn't meant to be a 1/1 parallel, and that the story has its own history to deal with. Japan clumsily appropriating real world issues isn't new, anyway. Remember when the KKK was in Earthbound? lol.

At the very least, AoT's more extreme right wing fans (the "yeagerists") very much hate how the story turned out, so I can't say it was made to please them.

The difference is that the EarthBound game clearly frames the Happist Cult as creeps who need to go down (as well as being partially designed after the Aum Shinrikyo cult in addition to the KKK), and just because some issues with Japanese creatives aren't new, that doesn't mean it doesn't warrant criticism (if anything reoccurring issues call for more criticism).

Also the issue with ambiguity in in political metaphor is that it can easily fell prey to the similar problem of the "paradox of tolerance", like how a bartender explains if you let "reasonable nazis" into a space, that space inevitably becomes a Nazi space.
https://www.boredpanda.com/bar-bart...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Now this isn't to say every piece of media must be explicitly didactic, that would be unreasonable and suck, but at the same time it's important to recognize that the harsher reactions from AoT critics aren't coming exclusively from an irrational/baseless place, especially for individuals who are from countries who suffered from Japan's Imperialism during the first half of the 20th century. And while I am still a fan of the AoT series, I can acknowledge the importance of listening to even its harsher critics and not simply dismissing them, even if I often disagree with their conclusions,

 

[Odysseus]

I guess I just can't help but see this the way Lic mentioned on the last page, the more successful something is, the more likely people are to attack it. One of my other favorite manga takes place in Victorian England, and makes the questionable decision to mostly gloss over British colonialism. The main characters is a young earl, and one of his friends during a chunk of the story is an Indian prince who tries to learn from the MC and improve India. It also has the one openly trans character in the story be a murderer and a crazy person. I don't see people writing articles about how problematic black butler is (though they could exist, I haven't checked.)
Or how about Jojo part 2 having an actual Nazi as a secondary protagonist, who helps the MC save the world, gives him a robot arm, and is noted as having died "honorably" for his country in the epilogue? Or Khota Hirano's worrying fixation on Nazis in general? Yeah I know this is just whataboutism, not a great way of arguing, but I do find it odd that AoT is so singularly chosen as a problematic work.

Also the issue with ambiguity in in political metaphor is that it can easily fell prey to the similar problem of the "paradox of tolerance", like how a bartender explains if you let "reasonable nazis" into a space, that space inevitably becomes a Nazi space.

I still don't see how the story at all condones Nazism though... Most of those things are fairly explicitly condemned by the text. It's not Isayama's fault a bunch of American right wing idiots lack reading comprehension.

One thing I noticed in the article is that the author conveniently cropped one of the images they used:

Spoiler

Image in article:

Actual page:

Notably, the full page shows characters the reader actually knows looking on at the fascist military rule with either concern or disapproval, rather than just a bunch of nobodies (+Hitch looking bored out of her mind.) I can't help but feel things like this are done to control the narrative and paint things in a worse light than they are. Of course looking at only the top two panels makes it look like AoT approves of this sort of thing. I dunno, this and hinging on an 8 year old not-confirmed-to-be-Isayama twitter account to make the bulk of the argument feels pretty bad-faith to me.

 

[null]

So how do y'all feel about the latest leaks? Of course they're still vague, but I feel like the only person on the planet not having a conniption fit over them.

Spoiler

(Although titan powers still existing is pretty dumb).

They do seem like direct responses to criticism though.

 

[Odysseus]

So how do y'all feel about the latest leaks? Of course they're still vague, but I feel like the only person on the planet not having a conniption fit over them. (Although titan powers still existing is pretty dumb). They do seem like direct responses to criticism though.

I don't know what you're referring to

 

[Lulcielid]

I don't know what you're referring to

The last volume will add extra pages to the last chapter that were not included.

 

[Odysseus]

The last volume will add extra pages to the last chapter that were not included.

I know that, but it looks like details of those last pages were leaked.

Spoiler

Mikasa visits Eren's grave with her husband, it is somewhat unclear if Paradis was wiped out or not, and the titan powers aren't gone.

Sounds fake to me personally, or at least taken very out of context on that last point.

 

[null]

Maybe. This leaker hasn't been wrong yet, but they seem nervous about legal action. They make everything sound like speculation.

Spoiler

I can't think of a more fitting ending than the Yeagerists rejecting peace and getting Paradis burned to the ground. That's a pretty big change though, and kind of contradicts what Isayama said about the new content not changing the plot.

Mikasa visiting Eren's grave with her family might be a Paths vision during the Armin conversation. Not that it wouldn't improve the ending to explicitly show her moving on, but unless the final pages changed she doesn't seem ready for a family yet, and I'm not sure where else that scene would go. Plus it would be really awkward if she dismissed her husband and child so she could pine over Eren alone. (Unless the husband is Jean. No other man would be so reconciled as to take their child to visit their wife's soulmate.)

The titan powers are the biggest issue but hopefully as you say, it's out of context.

 

[Odysseus]

Spoiler

I think titan powers and paradis being destroyed might be a "what if Eren didn't do the rumbling" thing personally.

 

[Theozilla]

Considering that Volume 34 doesn't even come out until June 9th, I am skeptical that leaked pages could be even accessed yet. So for now I heavily doubt they are real

Spoiler

especially the idea/change that the Titan powers aren't gone, as that would basically imply everyone who got titanized in chapter 138 didn't turn back into humans and/or got killed, I could only see it as some "what if" vision like the dream Mikasa and Eren had in 138.

 

[null]

Spoiler

Now the leaks say Mikasa has dialogue with Ymir. Yeah. I'm going back to watching I'm a Spider So What ?

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah I think I'm done following SNK stuff until the final volume is out. Even watching the fanbase be a shit show has gotten old.

 

[Odysseus]

I am a horrible uncommitted bastard.

Spoiler

The pages have leaked, and I'm 90% sure they're real.

Spoiler: Bad image quality

https://imgur.com/Pe08jN6

Sooooo... yeah. Seems like there's a two page scene of Ymir and Mikasa, and then a new epilogue showing the years go by with the perspective on Eren's tree. First we see Mikasa and her family visit Eren's grave, then the bigger panel is them visiting again when they are old (if you squint you can see old Mikasa with a cane and a wheel chair) in what resembles industrial revolution times Mikasa dies of old age and mayyyybe is buried under the tree with Eren (hard to see lol) and then in a time more closely resembling our own, a war breaks out on Paradis (I assume this is what people refer to when they say Paradis is destroyed.) Then, possibly thousands of years later, Eren's tree has grown enormous and greatly resembles Ymir's tree. An unknown child stumbles upon it (I assume this is why people are saying the Titan powers didn't go away.)

It all seems pretty open ended to me, personally. Who is to say the island was totally destroyed in the war? That kid isn't being chased by archers and hounds, so he might not dive headlong into a hole under a tree. I dunno, I think it's okay.

 

[Odysseus]

Welp, chapter with the extra pages is out

I... I don't know how to feel about the last four pages. It kinda... undermines the whole story a bit.

 

[Theozilla]

Surprised that the volume version was able to be leaked so early. Anyways I figured that a lot of those initial leak descriptions were misinterpretations, and it looks like I was right, lots of symbolic and great passages of time. I like the new pages, doesn’t feel like it’s an undermining of the themes IMO.

 

[Odysseus]

Surprised that the volume version was able to be leaked so early. Anyways I figured that a lot of those initial leak descriptions were misinterpretations, and it looks like I was right, lots of symbolic and great passages of time. I like the new pages, doesn’t feel like it’s an undermining of the themes IMO.

I desire to feel this way too, help me accept the carpet bombing page that's the only part I take issue with.

 

[Theozilla]

I desire to feel this way too, help me accept the carpet bombing page that's the only part I take issue with.

I think it’s thematically appropriate, following Eren and Pixis’ conversation during the Trost arc, that humanity will have inevitable conflict with itself until the last human is left on earth. The fact that the combatants are largely in identified on the page I think is a purposeful creative choice, like it could be the outside world attacking Paradis, but it could also be a civil war where Paradis decimated each other.

The post apocalyptic ending kinda reminds me of Isayama’s pilot chapter which actually did take place in the near/far future, unlike the main series which starts equivalent to the 19th/early 20th century tech/culture.

I wonder if chapter 139 was the only one that had extra pages added to it, or if the other collected chapters had any additions/changes of their own.

 

[Odysseus]

I think it’s thematically appropriate, following Eren and Pixis’ conversation during the Trost arc, that humanity will have inevitable conflict with itself until the last human is left on earth. The fact that the combatants are largely in identified on the page I think is a purposeful creative choice, like it could be the outside world attacking Paradis, but it could also be a civil war where Paradis decimated each other.

I think it just kind of takes the wind out of the sails of the original more ambiguously hopeful ending and Armin's last scene. I suppose they were able to maintain peace within their lifetime, but I guess it's also in-keeping with the series that eventually hostilities sparked up again. If I had to guess, I'd say the Yeagerist faction, in their paranoia, eventually launched their own offensive on the mainland, and were bombed into oblivion as a result. Still feels like a bit of a slap in the face after what we originally had.

Of course, a lot of hyperbolic fans are saying that "King Floch" was right all along, Armin and Eren failed, and the series is totally pointless now. The boy in the final pages should be enough evidence that not literally everyone died, but, you know. There's also a lot of talk of the Titan powers coming back because the boy finds Eren's tree which now looks like Ymir's tree did, so the series is pointless because the Titans are still around too. Zeke pretty well established that the Titans were the result of Ymir's own innate desires, to escape death and to be connected with people, so I'm not sure why people are assuming the boy would get the same results.

I don't know, I guess I have mixed feelings.

I wonder if chapter 139 was the only one that had extra pages added to it, or if the other collected chapters had any additions/changes of their own.

Isayama said he could only add 8 pages (counting the Attack on School castes skit at the end of the volume,) and it seems all six remaining were in the last chapter. 137 could use more pages too, but oh well. There was a new scene with Mikasa and Ymir if you missed it.

 

[Theozilla]

I think it just kind of takes the wind out of the sails of the original more ambiguously hopeful ending and Armin's last scene. I suppose they were able to maintain peace within their lifetime, but I guess it's also in-keeping with the series that eventually hostilities sparked up again. If I had to guess, I'd say the Yeagerist faction, in their paranoia, eventually launched their own offensive on the mainland, and were bombed into oblivion as a result. Still feels like a bit of a slap in the face after what we originally had.

Of course, a lot of hyperbolic fans are saying that "King Floch" was right all along, Armin and Eren failed, and the series is totally pointless now. The boy in the final pages should be enough evidence that not literally everyone died, but, you know. There's also a lot of talk of the Titan powers coming back because the boy finds Eren's tree which now looks like Ymir's tree did, so the series is pointless because the Titans are still around too. Zeke pretty well established that the Titans were the result of Ymir's own innate desires, to escape death and to be connected with people, so I'm not sure why people are assuming the boy would get the same results.

I don't know, I guess I have mixed feelings.


Isayama said he could only add 8 pages (counting the Attack on School castes skit at the end of the volume,) and it seems all six remaining were in the last chapter. 137 could use more pages too, but oh well. There was a new scene with Mikasa and Ymir if you missed it.

Oh no I saw all the new pages, including the Ymir and Mikasa ones
https://manga4life.com/read-online/Shingeki-No-Kyojin-chapter-139.5.html

And I am not too upset by Paradis (or at least that part of it) being destroyed. As it happens well after Mikasa has died of old age (the tree is much bigger during the bombing).

And the final pages are even further into the future with the state of the ruins and the fact an entire forest is grown around Eren’s tree.
And the power of the Titans hasn’t definitely come back, whether not the teen goes into the tree or even if they do, would it even do the same to them as Ymir, is completely left up in the air. It kinda reminds me of the Nausicaä manga honestly (which isn’t too surprising since Isayama stated that work was a major influence on AoT).
Also I really do enjoy Isayama’s sense of humor,
I would love to read a couple of volumes of his American highschool AU. (and adult Ymir and her three daughters even show up in the final volume 34 one)

 

[Odysseus]

If ever he does a new manga, I hope he does a more light hearted dark comedy series. He has such a strange sense of humor but it's very entertaining. Right now people are memeing about Atrack on Titan 2, since the ending is "sequel bait" apparently, but I think he'd be better off doing something less grand in scope.

 

[Theozilla]

If ever he does a new manga, I hope he does a more light hearted dark comedy series. He has such a strange sense of humor but it's very entertaining. Right now people are memeing about Atrack on Titan 2, since the ending is "sequel bait" apparently, but I think he'd be better off doing something less grand in scope.

I don’t even think the ending is meant to be sequel bait, a lot of contemporary fandom seems incapable of recognizing endings (which I think the MCU has contributed to).

 

[null]

I thought I liked the changes until I saw them assembled. Now I'm a little peeved, lol. First, the original ending scene had a sense of closure, and left on a perfect bittersweet note. The new ending feels bolted on and completely changes the tone. Second, where's my Muv Luv AU ending goddammit! That would have been a better use of 6-8 pages.

Oh well. Give up on your dreams and die. AoT had a fantastic run. We'll always have the horse charge. That plus Eren and Reiner in the basement are in my top 15 anime/manga moments.

 

[Odysseus]

Anyone seen that fan made alternate ending floating around? AoT No Requiem is what its called. Basically, Eren actually does just want all his friends dead because they're traitors, and he's going to finish the rumbling and go home to his wife Historia and their child. It's okay though it totally doesn't support genocide because Eren is the big sad afterwards.

The art is great, but the writing is so embarrassing. Eren is a one dimensional edge lord who just regurgitates his iconic lines over and over, and they retcon the fuck out of a lot of his best scenes (like the "Freedom" panel from chapter 131.) Armin and Zeke also have their development removed so they can be exposition dumps instead.

Honestly, seeing that that's the ending some of the most vocal fans wanted, I'm glad Isayama chose the ending he did now. Whiny Eren always felt more in character than edgy Eren did.

My growing awareness that a good chunk of the fandom are white supremacists is also making me want to just leave this awful fan base behind.

 

[null]

I haven't looked at it. I know it's based on Akatsuki no Requiem theory, which came from this music video and matches what you described. At least the smug fan theories in Game of Thrones, for example, were based on seriously elaborate lore including The World of Ice and Fire. AnR is based on a fucking lizard in a trench coat.

Yeah white supremacists are the reason the "AoT promotes fascism" idea was picked up by mainstream outlets. Lots of /pol/ influence leaking into /a/ and reddit, and the pro-Yeagerist posts reek of it. Framing the Rumbling as a race war, calling the royal family race traitors, the "superior" Eldians being held back by liberals, Eren taking an Aryan wife, shockingly casual holocaust jokes etc.