Attack on Titan/Shingeki no Kyojin (beware unmarked spoilers)

[Odysseus]

I didn't realize we had a dedicated thread for this. Yeah, the ending proved just as divisive as I thought it would be, but I liked it a lot. Many people are upset Eren wasn't the cold, badass "chad" they thought he was, but I was really relieved to see him act like himself again after so long. Levi's last scene made me really emotional, like, I actually cried a bit. I'm glad he lived. I like that the story was left a bit open ended, having a total "world peace" ending would have been naive.

I was wonder what some of you guys thought. I know @null and @LicoriceAllsorts read it too, at least.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I liked it. To be honest, ever since Erwin died I struggled to follow the finer points of the story. Eren's motivations are now made clear, I guess. I liked the hint at the end that all that sacrifice would turn out to have been in vain.

I don't understand what Eren was saying about Mikasa freeing Ymir from the pain of love, though.

Either I've been reading a less than stellar translation, or Isayama wasn't interested in clarity, or he needs to hone his storytelling skills.

Anyway, it's been a cultural phenomenon. The thing about cultural phenomena is, they can never wrap up in a way that satisfies everyone.

 

[Odysseus]

don't understand what Eren was saying about Mikasa freeing Ymir from the pain of love, though

My understanding is that Mikasa and Eren's relationship is meant to parallel that of the old King and Ymir. Due to Ymir's up bringing as a slave, she never had a healthy idea of what love is, so she saw it as complete subservience. This lead her to continue doing his bidding by creating titans even after her death, and unquestioningly following the orders of his descends.

Mikasa is similarly very loyal to Eren, and loves him dearly. In the end she is able to act independently of Eren and kill him, despite still loving him. By seeing this, Ymir is able to realize that her love doesn't mean she has to continue to suffer, and she is able to disregard king Fritz's will and move on. Since there's nobody making titans anymore, the titan curse ends right then and everyone goes back to being normal humans.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm probably a bit slow, but I wish Isayama would spell some of this out instead of letting every conversation trail away into ellipses....

 

[Odysseus]

The stuff with Ymir is probably the most poorly explained thing in the story. Eren credts it all to Mikasa, but ever since Eren told Ymir that "you can decide" she's been trying to understand how people live. There are a number of moments where you can see her just observing, like when that little boy is crushed to death by the rumbling, or when all of Eren's friends are battling with him. She's also shown to have been listening to Armin's conversation with Zeke about the meaning of life, and why it's more than just meaningless multiplication. All of these things help her learn to think for herself, and Mikasa seals the deal, as I said above.

That's my reading of her involvement in the story, anyway. It's hard to tell when a character never speaks.

 

[null]

Emotionally it was a 10/10. I haven't seen such perfection in a final scene since Six Feet Under.

The plot suffers from excessive handwaving, the lore is a dumpster fire thanks to P A T H S, and I'm not sure what can be usefully said about free will vs. human nature when the timeline is deterministic. But like giving a baby a rattle, you give me a Gabi to Falco suplex and I'll stfu immediately. The characters are what pulled it over the finish line.

 

[Odysseus]

and I'm not sure what can be usefully said about free will vs. human nature when the timeline is deterministic.

Okay here has been my take on this since I've had to assess this chapter a number of times because I keep arguing about it on reddit lol. People seem to think Eren was trapped in a predestination scenario, and thanks to his future memories he Technically was, but I think more than that, he was a slave to his own nature.

He tried to find other solutions besides the rumbling, but none of them were anything he could live with. Sacrificing historia was unacceptable, letting his race be euthanized was unacceptable, letting the rest of the world kill the Eldians was unacceptable. He says himself "I just can't live with an end like that." "Freedom" is his nature, he tells Reiner and Zeke as much, he was born that way. What I'm saying is, it doesn't matter in the end that it was "fated", they were actions he would have taken regardless of if he had known what was going to happen. He was a slave to the very freedom he sought, and as such became the least free person in the world. Eren's story is meant to be a tragedy.

 

[Theozilla]

I thought the finale was good, but not great, it had a few flaws (some more significant than others) that prevented it from reaching the latter.

The biggest flaw for me was Ymir's "revelation", because even though I can kinda see what Isayama was *trying* to go for with the parallel to Mikasa, the way it currently is presented quite uncomfortable/border-line gross (since it still has a character stating that Ymir "loved" her own rapist/abuser/oppressor), I don't know if it should have been left out per se, but it more really needed to be rewritten in a significantly different manner.
This is how I personally would have done Ymir's "reveal" to be gross/problematic (to put it lightly) while still working as a thematic parallel to Mikasa’s choice: Basically have the revelation be that Ymir was “in love with the idea of being in love and loved” and that her desperate/despairing attachment to such an unobtainable dream (for her) is what kept her trapped in the paths for eons. I figure that can still work as a parallel to Mikasa’s choice and also further parallels to “waking from a dream” that Mikasa went through in chapter 138.

The second other major issue would be the less the twist the Eren (as even though I thought it could have been more interesting for Eren to have stayed a straight villain for the finale, I've been expecting him to pull some sort of semi-Lelouch from Code Geass, for a while now) and more the way the finale has the Alliance characters react to said twist. While the finale doesn't completely exonerate Eren's "plan"/actions, the finale would have been significantly improved if it had its characters be more rebukeful of Eren, at the very least rewording Armin's "thank you" (I know Armin wasn't literally thanking Eren for his genocide of 80% of the world's population, but it was still poorly phrased), like just having Armin say, "I'm sorry you became a mass murderer for our sake" instead of "thank you", would have made so much difference.

Aside from those two major issues, I really enjoyed the rest of the finale (though it still requires some suspension of disbelief in regards to trampling+burning 80% of the Earth's terrestrial biosphere not causing signifiant climate catastrophes, but that's more a series/genre general issue than finale specific).

Anyways, perhaps most importantly, I am definitely glad the series didn't end with Eren "winning" like some weirdos (and many Eren x Historia shippers) seemed to have wanted. Danseru-kun (an older forum member who doesn't visit anymore) I think broke down why there there are so many "Eren is an incel" ~fans~ (beyond being far right dicks and/or misogynists) quite well.
https://danseru-kun.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F647864529854791680

Also if I was to rank Attack on Titan's arcs right now, this is what my top favorites list would be right now:
1. Clash of The Titans arc
2. War for Paradis arc
3. Marley arc
4. Return to Shiganshina arc (including Grisha’s flashbacks)
5. Ragnarök/Final arc
6. Beginning/Battle of Trost arc
7. The Uprising arc
8. Female Titan arc

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't see what's wrong with Ymir's revelation as it stands. It's presented as unbelievably tragic and pathetic: she loved someone she should have hated.

 

[Theozilla]

I don't see what's wrong with Ymir's revelation as it stands. It's presented as unbelievably tragic and pathetic: she loved someone she should have hated.

I can completely understand the parallel the narrative is trying to make between Ymir and Mikasa, but as it is currently presented, it needed to do a much better job of expressing how Ymir's situation isn't the same as Mikasa's. As any "love" Ymir may have felt for King Fritz isn't the same dynamic that Mikasa had with Eren (i.e. Eren didn't literally rape/oppress/enslave Mikasa). Even if the the intention was to try to explain what lingering attachment Ymir had was an emotional hegemony/pseudo-stockholm syndrome in regards to Karl Fritz, the chapter itself needed to do a better job of expressing that. Because as it is currently presented, the chapter can too easily be read as framing Ymir's feelings as a "real/sincere love" (and I don’t think I need to explain the issue with framing a rapist being sincerely “loved” by their victim, especially as some dramatic twist, regardless of whether it’s framed as tragic or not), even though I don't think (hopefully) that was Isayama's intention. The concept that Ymir had a warped perception of love can be conveyed without the object of her affection her abuser/rapist itself. That aspect of the finale really needed some rewriting in that regard IMO.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ah, yes, I agree with that. I couldn't understand how Mikasa could be the one to set Ymir free since I saw no parallels at all in their situations.

As for the issue of writing a story about a rapist being loved by their victim, I don't think any topics or issues should be off-limits for fiction. All things are worth exploring, even, or especially, the problematic things. That's the whole point of fiction. Anybody who reads AOT and comes away thinking there's anything romantic or positive about Ymir's feelings for Fritz.. well, they have bigger problems than not understanding a manga properly.

 

[Odysseus]

Many things were underdeveloped or under explained, that's probably my biggest criticism of it. I hardly think Ymir loving Fritz was supposed to be taken in a positive way at least. I had written up a much longer explanation for why I think she felt that way when I was talking to my girlfriend about the chapter, maybe I should copy that here lol.

 

[Theozilla]

Ah, yes, I agree with that. I couldn't understand how Mikasa could be the one to set Ymir free since I saw no parallels at all in their situations.

As for the issue of writing a story about a rapist being loved by their victim, I don't think any topics or issues should be off-limits for fiction. All things are worth exploring, even, or especially, the problematic things. That's the whole point of fiction. Anybody who reads AOT and comes away thinking there's anything romantic or positive about Ymir's feelings for Fritz.. well, they have bigger problems than not understanding a manga properly.

I agree that theoretically any topic or issue could be properly explored given the proper time and careful care and sensitivity put into it. But said latter elements are the key issue here, dropping such a significant bombshell of information demands much more explanation and deconstruction than AoT’s finale chapter can give (and furthermore I have my doubts about AoT’s capacity to properly explore/depict such a subject with justice, or ability to fit in, in the first place considering it’s genre/age demographic) and as such, with the way it’s currently depicted in the finale, it’s a shocking “reveal” with little thematic weight and/or logic to it.

It would be like Hamlet revealing at the very end of the play that Hamlet’s actual father was his Uncle that he just killed, and then just ended the same way as the original play. A plot development with that amount of significance (and about such heavy topics no less) warrant further development and narrative focus to be satisfying (and furthermore with topics like rape/abusive, to avoid being insensitive/offensive to real life victims).
Or to use a more recent manga example, the Berserk series just recently restored the sanity of Casca, a rape victim, having been non-lucid in the series for several years due to her trauma. If her sanity had just been “cured” with the snap of a finger that would extremely unsatisfactory and potential insensitive. But Miura being a good writer dedicated numerous episodes to depicting the restoration of Casca’s sanity, and even after having her sanity restored still has further trauma issues to rightly heal from and deal with.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I take your point. And tbh I wouldn't have minded a more detailed, expository "Ymir the Founder" arc, and a little cutting back on the confusing and endless battle scenes.

 

[Odysseus]

Hey @Theozilla, off topic, but do you think people will be similarly disappointed with Berserk's ending? I've seen you on SK.net before so I figure you probably have a better feel for their opinions than I do. I've long thought that the story won't resolve with Guts getting his epic revenge on Griffith, at least. I think his larger arc will resolve with him letting go of hate (not forgiving Griffith at all, mind you) and just doing what he has to.

 

[null]

Okay here has been my take on this since I've had to assess this chapter a number of times because I keep arguing about it on reddit lol. People seem to think Eren was trapped in a predestination scenario, and thanks to his future memories he Technically was, but I think more than that, he was a slave to his own nature.

He tried to find other solutions besides the rumbling, but none of them were anything he could live with. Sacrificing historia was unacceptable, letting his race be euthanized was unacceptable, letting the rest of the world kill the Eldians was unacceptable. He says himself "I just can't live with an end like that." "Freedom" is his nature, he tells Reiner and Zeke as much, he was born that way. What I'm saying is, it doesn't matter in the end that it was "fated", they were actions he would have taken regardless of if he had known what was going to happen. He was a slave to the very freedom he sought, and as such became the least free person in the world. Eren's story is meant to be a tragedy.

You're right, and I agree with all of that. I just think adding extra layers of slave distracts from the actually interesting one. I want to see Eren acting according to his nature, not Eren hypothetically agreeing with actions he can't avoid taking. Maybe it seems like nitpicking, but to me it's an important difference. Especially since he and Mikasa were both on the knife's edge and really, really close to making vastly different choices. Without future memories Eren's crisis of conscience could have been a meaningful test of character, especially now after 138/139 that we know the night in Liberio was a crossroads. Instead it was just an illusion of choice, and Mikasa answered his false dichotomy (another Ymir parallel, come to think of it) the only way possible because it already happened.

Anyways, perhaps most importantly, I am definitely glad the series didn't end with Eren "winning" like some weirdos (and many Eren x Historia shippers) seemed to have wanted. Danseru-kun (an older forum member who doesn't visit anymore) I think broke down why there there are so many "Eren is an incel" ~fans~ (beyond being far right dicks and/or misogynists) quite well.

Titanfolk's ears are turning red.

The best part about the ending is the Yeagerist nutjobs and smug "Eren is the father" fans disappearing into the woodwork. Some people were really, reaaaally sure they knew how it would all play out. (I did think Eren was suspiciously perceptive and emotionally intelligent around Historia, but not that he would make a goddamn tunnel to Paradis to meet his son in 136... no, 137... just wait, definitely in 138...)

Also if I was to rank Attack on Titan's arcs right now, this is what my top favorites list would be right now:
1. Clash of The Titans arc
2. War for Paradis arc
3. Marley arc
4. Return to Shiganshina arc (including Grisha’s flashbacks)
5. Ragnarök/Final arc
6. Beginning/Battle of Trost arc
7. The Uprising arc
8. Female Titan arc

Solid ? I might actually put Shiganshina at #1 but could just as easily leave as is.

 

[Lulcielid]

AoT legacy, imperialism and pro-remilitarization.

https://www.polygon.com/22392043/attack-on-titan-ending-analysis-manga-final-chapter-139

 

[Odysseus]

The only people who feel that way are the people who didn't read it, I assure you.

 

[null]

I don't even know where to begin with this article. Maybe "we have zero proof Isayama is linked to this nationalist Twitter account, but it sounds plausible because Ymir loved King Fritz."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

As soon as anyone or anything is successful, people will fall over themselves finding ways to attack it.

 

[Odysseus]

It just makes me sad because Isayama spent so much time thoughtfully depicting the horrors of war and what it does to the people involved. The message, though perhaps clumsily delivered in the last chapter, was that peace can only be achieved if people try to understand each other instead of continuing the cycle of hatred. The rise of fascism on Paradis was hardly presented as a good thing, considering it was built up by the antagonist group of the last stretch of the story.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There are many people around who just aren't very good at critical thinking.

 

[Theozilla]

While I personally don’t necessarily agree with a fair amount of the article/author’s assessments/conclusions, I think it is still a valuable critical perspective to go through and read. Even if I don’t share the same consensus with Hashimoto’s analyzes, his work and social media presence has been invaluable for shooting down right-wing “weebery” online.
And Kazuma Hashimoto (who is a Japanese immigrant, not a foreigner) has definitely read the series, even if he isn’t a fan of it and he also did do research for his article, he just has come to very different conclusions and isn’t want to give Isayama the benefit of the doubt with the Twitter identity controversy (along with the other creative choices he made with the series).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384487388903321600

 

[looneymoon]

Not a fan of Attack on Titan, but anime fetishizing Nazi aesthetics is basically a meme that goes way back.

From what I know of the story/ending, it seems that the fascistic plot points had enough underlying complexity to them that makes a reading of it being fascistic is pretty uncharitable. Not sure how much difference that makes to Twitter wokescolds and/or the weeb-Nazis.

Japan's war crime denialism is a whole other can of worms. I believe the Evangelion artist got backlash for similar sentiments as well.

 

[Odysseus]

I feel like authors aren't allowed to explore murkier subject matter without receiving some kind of backlash. AoT explores nationalism, fascism, racisms, war, and many other hot-button issues in a fairly nuanced way. Characters who kill hundreds of thousands of people are presented not as one-dimensional villains, but as victims of their circumstances. The general who used child soldiers and exploited an entire race is shown to have care and humility, the child who killed one of the most beloved characters in the series is able to learn that her beliefs were flawed and that she was the victim of propaganda, the man who nearly trembled the world to death is knocked on his ass and crying about how he doesn't want to die, and his best friend is able to understand his actions despite condemning them, and to at least appreciate that he did it for them.

I dunno. The thing I respect the most about the series is how nobody is presented as "evil incarnate." There's no Sephiroth to beat up because he is bad, no Frieza to punch to death to solve all the world's problems, no grinning big man in a suit with with no eyes laughing about how evil he is until the bright eyed youth stop him. Every side has a story, characters act in the way they do for reasons that they can justify to themselves not because they love being evil, but because they believe they are in the right. It's a complex story without a bad guy, just a tragedy of circumstances that leads to a murky and uncertain future. Isayama ending the series on an open note was the only way to go imo, not because he's pro-remilitarization, or a nationalist, or whatever problematic #caneled issue you want to bring up, but because that's fucking reality. You can't solve hate, you can't solve war, you can't end racism, tribalism and fear. This was never that kind of story. All you can do is pick of the pieces and try to be better than before, that's what Armin represents.

If hard-hitting stories that make you think are problematic, then I guess so am I.

Edit: and I'm not saying Isayama is some flawless guy. I know he has a bit of a murky history with Japan's war crimes. I just feel like it's foolish to completely disregard a work because of something like that personally. Nobody who speaks English should ever be allowed to write anything ever again at that point.