Barret's Date With Cloud

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D30JDkDHWZk

Attitudes towards being gay have changed a lot sense 1997 - maybe the date with Barret should reflect that.

For example - when you come into the show and you're told you're the 100th couple - instead of the announcer saying, "oh never mind" have them say it and Cloud look embarrassed/unsure if he should correct them or take whatever free stuff they might get - or them awkwardly insisting they aren't a couple.

I'd keep the awkwardness of the whole thing and how stand offish Barret is about being stuck on a 'romantic date' with Cloud.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? Would you like if they changed it to Barret actually having a crush on Cloud?
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
I dunno, then you're changing a character quite a bit, not just for a little scene... There should definitely be some additional embarrassment but to actually having a crush? Ehh...
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Not being able to do the play is really the only thing about the date that I think would come off the wrong way. The game should allow you to participate with Barret. :)
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I'd really like the option of doing the play with Barret. While I can't really imagine Barret having a crush on Cloud, by then he's probably warmed up to him enough to consider a friend, even if he might be reluctant to admit it.

I always thought the reason you couldn't do the play on the Barret date was because Cloud wouldn't get to do much as the princess rather than because they were both guys.
 

55-

Probably Evan Townshend
I FOR SURE would love to have Barret be the princess in the play. And then kiss the king or the dragon instead because it's always impossible for me to pass up that opportunity.

I'm not entirely convinced Barret doesn't have a crush on Cloud in the original.
I remember feeling like that, when I saw their date for the first time. I was like, it caught me off-guard how sincere it was.
Then replaying the game, there's a part early in the game that made me think, I think Barret's just a tsundere. It's this scene on the train when Cloud got separated from the rest of Avalanche and Barret's like yelling and punching the wall and doing everything in his power to pretend like he's not worried about Cloud.



Textbook tsundere.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Barret does show up in your room and ask you to come hang out with him - only to act like he doesn't even want you around when he was the one who asked you out in the first place- very Tsundere.

I also like that everyone loves Cloud. Jesse did for sure, Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie - why not Barret too? Cloud's just that irresistible. JK LOL

I wouldn't want to change his personality though -

I totally want Princess Barret!
 
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Starling

Pro Adventurer
I dislike when people chalk up that kind of behavior as repressed romantic feelings rather than genuinely being mad at someone, even if they do end up being friendlier and in some cases, dating at a later point. It makes me feel like the non-romantic feelings are being devalued or treated as masking underlying romantic feelings that may or may not actually be present.
 

55-

Probably Evan Townshend
I dislike when people chalk up that kind of behavior as repressed romantic feelings rather than genuinely being mad at someone, even if they do end up being friendlier and in some cases, dating at a later point. It makes me feel like the non-romantic feelings are being devalued or treated as masking underlying romantic feelings that may or may not actually be present.
Excuse urself, if you would like to argue with my post you may address me specifically, and allow me to defend myself.
You are painting me directly into a stereotype that I do not want to be a part of.

I actually have a pretty long-standing distaste for shipping and fanfiction and the like, because I think it's a pretty bad attitude to have about people, real or fictional, to act like you understand them. I think it's very important sometimes to just take a backseat and let people tell you about themselves. (Something you have failed to do here and I'm definitely not bitter about it.)

I remember being frustrated with fanfiction as a younger person because I didn't like the fact that all these massively different, fascinating, complex kinds of relationships I was seeing in fiction were being steamrolled into this one very commonly depicted and imo kinda boring and overdone type of relationship. It annoyed me that people were reducing a complex thing into a simple, boring thing, not seeing it how I did, not appreciating it for what it was, but trying to make it something it likely was not. It bothered me that that was more satisfying to them than just listening.

I understand that me making the assumption that maybe just maybe Barret's super in love with Cloud, might not look that different from shipping to someone who doesn't exist in my brain, but you're going to have to trust me on this.

The thing is, the way Barret acts, is something that feels very identifiable and relatable to me. I'm not saying that Barret has never been geniunely mad at Cloud. But sometimes anger is the result of caring a whole hell of a lot. (And we have plenty of evidence that Barret feels quite strongly about things.) It's a lot easier to get mad at a poor addition to a franchise you like than a poor movie you didn't expect to like, u feel me? We're more critical of things we have high expectations for. I have never ever gotten the impression that Barret genuinely hated Cloud, he's just frustrated with him for bein a lil shit all the time, when he knows on some level that he's not a bad guy. It's like Barret's Cloud's mad dad, who just wants what he thinks is best for this lil' idiot. In the romantic court, there's even an element of, the fact that he might have feelings for this cocky brat is probably something he would work quite hard to repress and deny. Maybe because he's struggling with his sexuality, maybe because he's frustrated with himself for his terrible taste, LOL.
Maybe the tsundere attitude doesn't translate as easily to someone who hasn't felt similar ways about people in their own life, but to me it's quite easily identifiable. It doesn't have to be romantic, but it's for sure present here.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for video games (and other story telling media) to resort to gay subtext to avoid controversy. So it can get difficult to tell, is this a depiction of two characters actually into each other sexually and/or romantically? Is it two characters that have a complex relationship that defies lables? Or are we just avoiding particular labels so homophobes don't get mad? Does Barret like Cloud but he know Cloud wouldn't feel the same way, so he's struggling with it? There's like, there's a million things that could be happening here and without Barret outright admitting to anything, we can't know for sure.
When I was younger, I was much more quick to deny outright claims of shippers, but at the age I'm at now, I like to remain open about things. If they decided this time around to outright state that Barret is a lil in love with Cloud, it wouldn't really surprise me. He acts all tough, but he's actually a big squishy teddy bear that acts like he don't like being stuffed in a marshmallow, but secretly he loves it.

Okay, my point is, if you think the complexity of Cloud and Barret's interactions is lost on me, you're super wrong.
But it's hard to ignore that they go on date together.

(TBH I think it's kinda exceedingly heteronormative to assume that the three women cloud goes on a date with were romantically interested him, but the one dude he goes on a date with, they were just hanging out.)
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Just remember that if it wasn't for Corel being destroyed, Barret would be married to his wife. And Barret pretty much says on the date that the reason he wants to talk to Cloud is because he thinks Cloud has a romantic feelings for Marlene that he is not okay with. So the entire thing is pretty much a dad watching out for his daughter. If anything, I'd say the person Barret cares more about is Marline rather then Cloud and that Barret would be mad at anyone in that situation.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Just remember that if it wasn't for Corel being destroyed, Barret would be married to his wife. And Barret pretty much says on the date that the reason he wants to talk to Cloud is because he thinks Cloud has a romantic feelings for Marlene that he is not okay with. So the entire thing is pretty much a dad watching out for his daughter. If anything, I'd say the person Barret cares more about is Marline rather then Cloud and that Barret would be mad at anyone in that situation.

Which raises a point: Did anyone else overlook/skim over the fact that Barret is basically calling Cloud a pedophile? I mean, the kid's five for crying out loud.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Yeah - I don't think Barret seriously thinks Cloud likes Marlene - right? She's four - WTF?

I mean, he asks Cloud if he likes Aerith or Tifa first- maybe the Marlene thing is a joke.

I thought who you went on a date with depended on who you were nicest too?

As for romantic vs non-romantic - I really don't see a difference. I certainly wouldn't compare writing fanfiction about fictional characters to writing stories about real people. With fiction you're allowed to interpret and - I think - take characters to tell your own stories.

For me, the only that bothers me about romance is how few male/female friendships we see - because I think there should be representation of men and women caring about each other without the woman being a love interest.

Otherwise, interpreting something as possibly romantic isn't a problem since you don't know either way. Not that I think Barret or Cloud actually is bisexual (could be but there's not really evidence) - but I appreciate that with the date thing it's not just the girl party members who show up if you're nice to them. It seems less like slotting women into default romantic option.
 

55-

Probably Evan Townshend
Just remember that if it wasn't for Corel being destroyed, Barret would be married to his wife. And Barret pretty much says on the date that the reason he wants to talk to Cloud is because he thinks Cloud has a romantic feelings for Marlene that he is not okay with. So the entire thing is pretty much a dad watching out for his daughter. If anything, I'd say the person Barret cares more about is Marline rather then Cloud and that Barret would be mad at anyone in that situation.
Barret having been married to a woman don't mean a damn thing. Plenty of gay people have spent years or lifetimes closeted and in heterosexual relationships, and yes, even marriages. Honestly, that's a very ignorant defense.
Also marriages don't always last forever. I don't think you can say for sure that Corel not being destroyed means that he definitely would still be with his wife.

Anyway, don't remember at all that being the reason for the Barret date, and looking back on it now, you're actually definitely wrong. The way the conversation goes, Barret's basically like "why are you here with me right now and not with any of the girls like a normal dude." Cloud's like "Who would you have asked out?" Barret's like "Man, Tifa, Aeris, Yuffie, how could you choose, I am definitely attracted to women." Cloud does the verbal equivalent of rolling his eyes. Then Barret STAMPEDES to the conclusion that Cloud must be here with him right now because he's secretly into Marlene. And then yells and pretends not to like Cloud for the rest of the scene.
I see no reason at all why I can't read this as two dudes being super uncomfortable admitting feelings for one another.
They both know why they're there. Barret just seems to be having a lot of trouble really believing that Cloud is there for him.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Also - just saying, I have a husband - that doesn't mean I wouldn't date a girl in fact I've been with more girls than guys.

Bisexuality - it exists.

The way the dating mechanics are set up it does seem you get who the characters want based on the choices you make for them - for example if Cloud is chosen by Corneo, he'll as Cloud if he has a boyfriend. If Cloud says "Yes, his name's Barret..." you get +5 Barret. Or this one

Tifa asks Cloud how he slept the next morning:

"Next to you, who wouldn't?" (+5 Tifa)
"Barret's snoring kept me up..." (+5 Barret)

Which may imply whose bed Cloud chose to platonically share.

I think the Love Triangle Debate will get infinitely more amusing if Barret is also in the mix. I also think no one will ship this because Barret isn't pretty and a lot of shippers tend to ship for shallow reasons.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
I think Barret commenting on the girls sort of adds to the fact that they're not into each other? Also, worth noting, that his theme plays and not the traditional romantic Interrupted by Fireworks....
 
Here is an even better turn-around. Cloud is already experienced with cross-dressing, meaning... CLOUD FOR PRINCESS! Barret is Cloud's knight in shining gatling gun glory.

I'm not sure how the remake should frame this date though. The whole scenario is obviously meant to be a joke, both when it comes to the Barret and the Yuffie date. I always felt like the Tifa and Aerith dates, although certainly funny during the kingdom of Galdia play, had more plot relevancy and sincerity.

So how do you choreograph this silliness in high-end graphics? Maybe, if the date is Barret or Yuffie, Cloud wakes up in his bed when the date is over and realizes that it was all just a dream. He then decides to roam the Gold Saucer, picking up Aerith or Tifa on the way, which leads to the scenario with Cait Sith and the Keystone.

Yes, I think that's what I'd like to see. Cloud dreams the date with Barret or Yuffie. By turning it into a dream all silliness is justified. There's no way Cloud would agree to dress up and be the princess otherwise. In the Barret date Cloud gets to be the princess and Barret defeats the Evil Dragon King by simply threatening the dragon with his gatling gun. Cue Barret sweeping Cloud off his feet. <3
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
TBH I think we're reading far too much into what was just an easter egg.

I reckon they should just frame it as Barret having a suspicion about Tifa's doubts about Cloud, and wanting to try and figure Cloud out -having not really had a chance to spend some time one on one with Cloud. Also, I imagine Barret is very protective of Tifa and doesn't want her getting hurt, so maybe he's trying to figure out Cloud's intentions towards her or something?

Edit: to clarify, I mean thats what they should do in the remake because in the OG it's just jibberish.
 
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Starling

Pro Adventurer
Excuse urself, if you would like to argue with my post you may address me specifically, and allow me to defend myself.
You are painting me directly into a stereotype that I do not want to be a part of.

If you're going to convey your opinion without coming across as rude, you shouldn't start your wall of text with "excuse urself". I didn't put your post in quotes because not only was it the latest post while I was typing my reply but I was expressing my dislike for how people use and interpret the Tsundere trope in general, not your specific opinion on the matter. Due to its length, I've decided to only quote parts of it so my post won't be too long.

I actually have a pretty long-standing distaste for shipping and fanfiction and the like, because I think it's a pretty bad attitude to have about people, real or fictional, to act like you understand them. I think it's very important sometimes to just take a backseat and let people tell you about themselves. (Something you have failed to do here and I'm definitely not bitter about it.)

Shipping itself isn't the issue, it's what people make of it that causes problems. Fanfiction is more than just relationships. It's a way to express theories, interpretations and situations that didn't get the chance to happen in canon. Sometimes it's done well, sometimes it's not. It's really hard to find well executed relationships in those. I don't really get what I said that prompted you to make such a backhanded comment at the end.

I understand that me making the assumption that maybe just maybe Barret's super in love with Cloud, might not look that different from shipping to someone who doesn't exist in my brain, but you're going to have to trust me on this.

Shipping is defined as wanting characters to be in a relationship, usually but not always romantic. I'm not really sure what else you're trying to get at that resembles shipping but isn't.

I have never ever gotten the impression that Barret genuinely hated Cloud, he's just frustrated with him for bein a lil shit all the time, when he knows on some level that he's not a bad guy.

I'd like to be clear that I never said Barret hated Cloud, just that he was mad at him for justifiable reasons.

I understand that some people will hide their feelings with anger. What I dislike about the Tsundere trope is that it's treated as if any time someone is feeling more than just anger, it's interpreted as sexual or romantic tension, disregarding the possibility of platonic feelings, often acting like a relationship between the two is a foregone conclusion.

Too often I see platonic relationships between characters, regardless of gender, get treated as romantic and sexual ones, which serves as a reminder that many people still view those relationships as better and stronger than platonic ones.

In the Gondola, Barret asks about which girl Cloud's into. When Cloud is asking who he'd choose, he seems to be asking for Barret's advice on the matter rather than which one Barret's possibly into. Barret's a bit old to be dating people barely into their 20s, not to mention Yuffie. The date generally comes across as platonic and for the record, I view Yuffie's date as platonic as well, not just Barret's.
 
No, we're discussing whether it's possible to interpret them as repressed gays who are hot for each other without breaking canon.

Pairing Barret up with any member of the party has always repelled me, and I've just realized why: because I see him as the father figure to them all.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
No, we're discussing whether it's possible to interpret them as repressed gays who are hot for each other without breaking canon.

Pairing Barret up with any member of the party has always repelled me, and I've just realized why: because I see him as the father figure to them all.

I remember originally pairing him with Tifa because it looked like they were living together and taking care of Marlene and what not. And then Cloud comes along making her wonder what if?
 
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55-

Probably Evan Townshend
If you're going to convey your opinion without coming across as rude, you shouldn't start your wall of text with "excuse urself".
I was perfectly okay with sounding rude because you were rude first. That was the second time that day you had referenced a post of mine indirectly.
The nature of this post was you going "god I hate people who are like this," and I'm like, I'm right here, say that to my face.
I don't think your description of me was accurate. I wrote an entire huge paragraph explaining why I don't think I was railroading a complex platonic relationship into a simple romantic one. I don't like doing that. I am a big appreciator of platonic love. I am not the imaginary, perceived enemy you have in your head. Please stop telling me what I think.
Anyway, what I am doing here, all I am doing here, is suggesting that there is enough evidence of Barret having a lil crush on Cloud that it is a possible reading of the text.
In the same way that people have a million different readings of a million different vague, interpretive moments of FFVII.
 
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