Before Crisis is canon but shoddy.

[Harry]

This game stuffed up its recreation of the Nibelheim incident. Even if the Turks were the center of attention in this game, I don't think distorting what happened in Nibelheim should be allowed. Maybe we can overlook this, but the ending really left everyone who's watched it in the dark. There is no attempt to explain what happened to the Turks after the final boss.

Elfe is important enough to have had two vocal theme songs made in her honor, but the makers of Before Crisis didn't consider her important enough to tell the player what happened to her. Elfe's theme songs are pretty good. I'm assuming that Tseng used blanks when he executed Elfe and Veld, but why is Veld and the other Turks shown, but Elfe is ignored? Is Elfe important or not?

This is a mobile game from 2004 and not a big budget Final Fantasy game, but they could've made the story more consistant. The cartoon called Final Fantasy, Legend of the Crystals, is a sequel to Final Fantasy V, but it is so shoddy that it's hardly ever mentioned. I don't consider it a sequel to Final Fantasy V at all. Just because something is made by Square and is canon doesn't mean it's good.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There's an old-fashioned phrase "a curate's egg", which comes from a story of how the vicar's wife served the curate a bad egg for breakfast one morning, and he, not wishing to giving offense, told her, when asked how his egg was, that it was "good in parts". BC is a curate's egg of a game.

Hardcore Turk fans such as myself treasure it for the backstory it gives us (especially for Tseng and Rufus), because it gave us all these new Turks to play with (and really, it never did make sense that there were only four of them) and because it shows us what our favourite characters were up to during the Crisis Core timeline. I think the idea that there were other Avalanches before Barret's is a fair one. There are some great episodes, like Zack's journey to the Northern Continent and the death of his friends at the hands of Avalanche, or Reno trapped on the roof of the runaway lift, or Rude's love affair with Chelsea. I enjoyed the world building it provided.

However, I cannor dispute that the writing is sub-par in patches.

As for Nibelheim, Square has re-written that so many times, you can take your pick.

I don't think Tseng can have used blanks. He was surrounded by experienced soldiers. I think they would have noticed.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Actually, the other AVALANCHE idea has been around since the original game, with Barret even mentioning he named his AVALANCHE after them.

As for which Nibelheim incident I take my pick from, I choose CC. For the stuff that didn't get shown in CC(such as Cloud going into Tifa's room[and stealing her panties] or Sephiroth kiling Tifa's dad and injuring Tifa) I choose FFVII.

 

[S and G]

This game stuffed up its recreation of the Nibelheim incident. Even if the Turks were the center of attention in this game, I don't think distorting what happened in Nibelheim should be allowed.

Agreed, but one thing you also have to remember is that Before Crisis and Last Order were released almost simultaneously, and showed their own version of events which have officially been recognised by SE as not canon. They changed the version of events so that the player could interact more during the game, not necessarily to retell the events.

Maybe we can overlook this, but the ending really left everyone who's watched it in the dark. There is no attempt to explain what happened to the Turks after the final boss.

Actually, there is. It's called WEAPON Mode and is set between the end of BC and the start of FF7. The ending of the original story was deliberately designed to both create suspense for the player surrounding the fate of the Turks, and to remind players of the original game why these Turks were not around during those events.

Elfe is important enough to have had two vocal theme songs made in her honor, but the makers of Before Crisis didn't consider her important enough to tell the player what happened to her. Elfe's theme songs are pretty good. I'm assuming that Tseng used blanks when he executed Elfe and Veld, but why is Veld and the other Turks shown, but Elfe is ignored? Is Elfe important or not?

As the game develops, we learn that Fuhito is the real villain and not Elfé. Nevertheless, an explanation could have been given for her whereabouts. Since she and Veld were both shot by Tseng, and Veld later appears in the epilogue, it stands to reason that she also survived, but has no further part to play. To reveal Veld at the end is a way of showing they survived without bringing Elfé back on screen. And why would they? The image of the Turks together again is just that - the Turks. Elfé was not part of that.

This is a mobile game from 2004 and not a big budget Final Fantasy game, but they could've made the story more consistant. Just because something is made by Square and is canon doesn't mean it's good.

I disagree with this logic. Contrary to what you have said, there are actually only a few contradictions that exist between BC and FF7. The Nibelheim incident is a major one, but what about the colour of the Turks' suits? That's not consistent. But, the retelling of the Nibelheim incident through CC is inconsistent with FF7 too. As is the colour of the First Class SOLDIER uniforms. Does this then make CC a bad game?

BC was a mobile phone game whose gameplay would not really have been excellent. Much emphasis would then be put on the story and characters. If you don't enjoy the story, then that's one thing, but there is actually far more that BC explains about the original FF7 than causes problems for.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

BC also gives us more information about how Shin-Ra is generally run then any other title. We get to see a lot of interaction between the heads of the departments and see that what we saw them doing in FFVII was pretty typical of them.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

BC also gives us more information about how Shin-Ra is generally run then any other title. We get to see a lot of interaction between the heads of the departments and see that what we saw them doing in FFVII was pretty typical of them.

Well there's also Crisis Core. CC gives us insight into what SOLDIER is like, while BC gives us insight into what the lives of the Turks are like, I'd say.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I disagree with this logic. Contrary to what you have said, there are actually only a few contradictions that exist between BC and FF7. The Nibelheim incident is a major one, but what about the colour of the Turks' suits? That's not consistent. But, the retelling of the Nibelheim incident through CC is inconsistent with FF7 too. As is the colour of the First Class SOLDIER uniforms. Does this then make CC a bad game?

BC was a mobile phone game whose gameplay would not really have been excellent. Much emphasis would then be put on the story and characters. If you don't enjoy the story, then that's one thing, but there is actually far more that BC explains about the original FF7 than causes problems for.

Could not disagree more, my good man. Before Crisis is a continuity clusterfuck of ginormous proportion.

Not only does it gut the Nibelheim incident like a fish, but it ruins Barret and Red XIII's back stories.

In the original game, Barret was coming back from a trip out of town with Dyne when shit went to hell at Corel. In BC, he was in the mines starting the work day when AVALANCHE came to destroy the Corel reactor and the Turks arrived to stop them.

Not only did this render Shin-Ra destroying Corel in retaliation nonsensical (they knew it was AVALANCHE who did it, not the people of Corel), but it makes Barret look like an utter moron since he knew Shin-Ra was trying to save the reactor. If anything, he should have blamed AVALANCHE for all that happened that day. Instead, he ends up taking up their name?

Horseshit.

As for Red, his once understandable anguish in the original game now becomes petulant whining. Instead of really being the last of his kind, he knows Dinne is about 200 feet away when he's relating his woe-is-me tale to the team.

And then there's the ridiculous idea that losing 11 Turks "permanently" doesn't warrant promoting anyone from the academy -- but oh no! Reno has to take a few days off! Get us the best you've got up here right away! And it totally makes sense that the best you've got is tentacle monster-bait who didn't even like the Turks a few days ago!

Also, the black suits. The black suits suck. Shady dealings people in black suits. That has never been done before!

I do admit that I like Elfe, her theme, her story, and her role in the game -- but, yeah, I hate Before Crisis.

What does it help make sense of in the original? I can't see anything it made clearer.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mostly agree, Tres, especially about Barret.

However, there's a point in the OG where you go back to Cosmo Canyon and Red XIII finds Bugenhagen lying on the bed (or sofa?) and Bugenhagen says to him that he may eventually find his life's mate. Given that Bugenhagen pointlessly (IMHO) kept secret from him the fact that his father was not a coward but a brave warrior, he may also have concealed from him the fact that Dinne was alive. I mean, if you play the OG all the way through to the end it's kind of obvious that Nanaki was never the last of his kind. After his capture by Shinra he had no way of knowing what happened to her. He might have assumed that she was dead; or if not, he would have had every reason to conceal her existence from everybody, and no reason to tell them about her.

I hate the black suits.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why would Nanaki think she may not be alive? The Turks let them complete their ritual. And even if he didn't believe they kept their word, why wouldn't the first question he asked upon getting home be is "Is Dinne okay?!" instead of weeping all over the steps?

Thanks for bringing up Bugenhagen's death scene, by the way, as that was completely ruined by this too.

 

[S and G]

Could not disagree more, my good man. Before Crisis is a continuity clusterfuck of ginormous proportion.

Not only does it gut the Nibelheim incident like a fish, but it ruins Barret and Red XIII's back stories.

In the original game, Barret was coming back from a trip out of town with Dyne when shit went to hell at Corel. In BC, he was in the mines starting the work day when AVALANCHE came to destroy the Corel reactor and the Turks arrived to stop them.

Not only did this render Shin-Ra destroying Corel in retaliation nonsensical (they knew it was AVALANCHE who did it, not the people of Corel), but it makes Barret look like an utter moron since he knew Shin-Ra was trying to save the reactor. If anything, he should have blamed AVALANCHE for all that happened that day. Instead, he ends up taking up their name?

Horseshit.

Right, admittedly I'm a bit hungover and have fallen victim to my own headcanon here. Because I spent so much time researching BC and then trying to resolve the problems it posed, I have overlooked the original issues. Yes, they messed up Barret's backstory from a Shinra perspective. I agree there was really no justification for burning down Corel except for Scarlet's personal malice. The last scene in Episode 16 is President Shinra ordering Scarlet to Corel as "the Reactor there has exploded".

As for the "me and Dyne were out of town for a few days" could mean anything. He may have meant he was working in the mines for a few days. During the episode, he never actually learns that AVALANCHE are the villains or that it's the Turks who are trying to stop them. And don't forget his grievance is with Shinra burning down his hometown, not the destruction of the Reactor. If you remove the reason as to why Shinra burned down Corel, the rest is not actually a glaring contradiction.

As for Red, his once understandable anguish in the original game now becomes petulant whining. Instead of really being the last of his kind, he knows Dinne is about 200 feet away when he's relating his woe-is-me tale to the team.

Again, I disagree with your interpretations. While Red to whine about being the last of his race is clearly wrong from a continuity POV (and I don't actually remember this ever happening - but I haven't studied that part of the game in a while), I think most of his issues are with his father. This has no bearing whatsoever on Dinne so I don't think her introduction into the story has much bearing on FF7 other than it should have been mentioned.

And then there's the ridiculous idea that losing 11 Turks "permanently" doesn't warrant promoting anyone from the academy -- but oh no! Reno has to take a few days off! Get us the best you've got up here right away! And it totally makes sense that the best you've got is tentacle monster-bait who didn't even like the Turks a few days ago!

Fair enough, but bear in mind that between the Zirconiade incident and Barret's AVALANCHE blowing up Reactor1, the Shinra thought they had brought an end to all the conflict they were involved in. No more Crescent Unit/Wutai remnants, no more Genesis/G Army and no more Fuhito/AVALANCHE. AND why would they bring in more people when they were on the brink of being shut down? The same night the Turks are reinstated in Shinra, Reactor1 is blown up. There is no time to bring in anyone before that. According to canon, FF7 takes place over 3 weeks which isn't a lot of time to bring on more people for the task, not to mention that OTWTAS: Case of Shinra reveals the other Turks were around anyway to unofficially help out if needed.

Also, the black suits. The black suits suck. Shady dealings people in black suits. That has never been done before!

I think that was the whole point. It automatically makes you associate them with dark dealings.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Right, admittedly I'm a bit hungover and have fallen victim to my own headcanon here. Because I spent so much time researching BC and then trying to resolve the problems it posed, I have overlooked the original issues. Yes, they messed up Barret's backstory from a Shinra perspective. I agree there was really no justification for burning down Corel except for Scarlet's personal malice. The last scene in Episode 16 is President Shinra ordering Scarlet to Corel as "the Reactor there has exploded".

Glad we agree there.

As for the "me and Dyne were out of town for a few days" could mean anything. He may have meant he was working in the mines for a few days.

He actually said they were out of town visiting a reactor under construction, and were on their way back from that when the massacre happened.

The mines don't seem far enough away that he couldn't have gone home each day. And why would he have been there alone to get things started if it was normal for the workers to stay in the mines for days at a time?

During the episode, he never actually learns that AVALANCHE are the villains or that it's the Turks who are trying to stop them.

But this requires we see Barret as an idiot -- that once he knows who the Turks and AVALANCHE are, he doesn't put two and two together.

And don't forget his grievance is with Shinra burning down his hometown, not the destruction of the Reactor. If you remove the reason as to why Shinra burned down Corel, the rest is not actually a glaring contradiction.

Though true, if the premise is shaky, it's hard to swallow what follows. Kind of like how the third "Pirates of the Caribbean" movie would be good if the second didn't have to exist to get us there.

Again, I disagree with your interpretations. While Red to whine about being the last of his race is clearly wrong from a continuity POV (and I don't actually remember this ever happening - but I haven't studied that part of the game in a while), I think most of his issues are with his father. This has no bearing whatsoever on Dinne so I don't think her introduction into the story has much bearing on FF7 other than it should have been mentioned.

Though his issues with Seto are definitely his main concern, he does mention being the last of his race, immediately upon arrival in Cosmo in fact:

Here is where I was... I mean, ...this is my hometown. My tribe were protectors of those who appreciate this beautiful canyon and the Planet. My brave mother fought and died here, but my cowardly father left her...... I am the last of my race.

And, of course, the topic comes up again in Bugen's death scene.

Fair enough, but bear in mind that between the Zirconiade incident and Barret's AVALANCHE blowing up Reactor1, the Shinra thought they had brought an end to all the conflict they were involved in. No more Crescent Unit/Wutai remnants, no more Genesis/G Army and no more Fuhito/AVALANCHE. AND why would they bring in more people when they were on the brink of being shut down? The same night the Turks are reinstated in Shinra, Reactor1 is blown up. There is no time to bring in anyone before that. According to canon, FF7 takes place over 3 weeks which isn't a lot of time to bring on more people for the task, not to mention that OTWTAS: Case of Shinra reveals the other Turks were around anyway to unofficially help out if needed.

While you're right that events happened very quickly, if Barret et. al.'s activities were disruptive enough to warrant crushing an eighth of the city and making a move to take Aerith by force after waiting 15 years for her to come willingly -- well, surely you see my point? All this happens in the span of a few days (11 Turks lost, two reactors blown, Sector 7 destroyed, etc.), but Reno taking a few days off for a work-related injury is the catalyst for someone to finally say "We might need more personnel"?

In one of the first episodes of BC, more Turks got brought on board (and sent to look for new SOLDIER recruits) after much less disaster.

As for the other Turks still being available, one gets the impression they would have only been on hand for those few who knew they were still alive. Reeve knew, but how likely is it that President Shinra did?

I think that was the whole point. It automatically makes you associate them with dark dealings.

I don't doubt it, but the blue set them apart. =(

 

[S and G]

He actually said they were out of town visiting a reactor under construction, and were on their way back from that when the massacre happened.

The mines don't seem far enough away that he couldn't have gone home each day. And why would he have been there alone to get things started if it was normal for the workers to stay in the mines for days at a time?

I didn't say there is no room to pick holes in the retelling of events and we could argue the finer details until we are blue in the face, I'm simply defending BC in such that I don't believe this particular example is as glaring as an error as you originally stated.

But this requires we see Barret as an idiot -- that once he knows who the Turks and AVALANCHE are, he doesn't put two and two together.

That depends on how familiar Barret was with the original AVALANCHE. It's perfectly conceivable that his knowledge stretched as far as 'they are a group derived from the Study of Planet Life who take militant action to protect the Planet'. At no point does it mention or even suggest anywhere that he was aware of the party's intricacies.

Though his issues with Seto are definitely his main concern, he does mention being the last of his race, immediately upon arrival in Cosmo in fact.

Yup, went back and looked that up myself. No arguments that BC clearly contradicts that point.

While you're right that events happened very quickly, if Barret et. al.'s activities were disruptive enough to warrant crushing an eighth of the city and making a move to take Aerith by force after waiting 15 years for her to come willingly -- well, surely you see my point? All this happens in the span of a few days (11 Turks lost, two reactors blown, Sector 7 destroyed, etc.), but Reno taking a few days off for a work-related injury is the catalyst for someone to finally say "We might need more personnel"?

In one of the first episodes of BC, more Turks got brought on board (and sent to look for new SOLDIER recruits) after much less disaster.

I stand by my point that a department that was scheduled for eradication would not seek to take on more employees. It is perfectly conceivable that as part of their continuation (particularly after Rufus takes over) was that they were downsized and that their roles regarding specific missions were changed. If Shinra had far less global conflict to worry about, it would make sense to use SOLDIER or the military for tasks that may once have been given to the Turks. As for taking on Elena, maybe they did need a minimum number of staff. My point is that nothing is a contradiction in this case, it is simply a matter of interpretation.

As for the other Turks still being available, one gets the impression they would have only been on hand for those few who knew they were still alive. Reeve knew, but how likely is it that President Shinra did?

How many people would need to know what the Turks were up to anyway? I simply meant that they would be around if Tseng had to call in a favour.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What I do like about BC is the irony of each of the FFVII characters helping the Turks who will later be their enemies.

Red XIII must have thought for a long time that he was never going to see his home again. It would be natural for him to cry all over the steps when he returned. He feels things very deeply. I can think of plenty of reasons why Red XIII might not know that Dinne is alive. Hojo might have told him she was dead. The Turks might have told Hojo she was dead, either to protect her or to cover up the fact that they screwed up their mission. Bugenhagen thinks Nanaki is a child and doesn't fully trust him with the truth. Bugenhagen also has no reason to trust these people Nanaki has shown up with. He may sense that there is something wrong with Cloud. After Gongaga, Nanaki knows that there is a spy in their party; he may have told Bugenhagen this. In fact for all we know he asked Grandfather how Dinne was and Grandfather said, she's fine but she's hiding, and Nanaki decided it would be prudent to keep this fact from the group. Any or none of these things could have happened in that plot hole.

I actually liked Bugenhagen's characterisation in BC more than in FFVII. In the OG he seems like such a whimsical pessimist.

PS Rufus knew that the other Turks were alive. He was the one who signed their fake death certificates. Tseng got Elena promoted because he fancied her. Like that's never happened before.

 

[S and G]

It's also worth noting that the Rite to Appease the Planet takes place every 50 years. The female then goes into a cave for 3 years. Nanaki is 47 during BC when he takes place in the Rite with Dinne. Can it thus be deduced (using quick maths: 50-3=47) that he was born from the previous Rite?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't say there is no room to pick holes in the retelling of events and we could argue the finer details until we are blue in the face, I'm simply defending BC in such that I don't believe this particular example is as glaring as an error as you originally stated.

Fair enough. I feel like it's a big enough hole that you could fly the Highwind through, but inconsistent details jump out at me like that.

That depends on how familiar Barret was with the original AVALANCHE. It's perfectly conceivable that his knowledge stretched as far as 'they are a group derived from the Study of Planet Life who take militant action to protect the Planet'. At no point does it mention or even suggest anywhere that he was aware of the party's intricacies.

Probably not, but I would like to give him more credit than to overlook something like that. I mean, there's a major terrorist group known to be in opposition to Shin-Ra, and an anti-Shin-Ra terrorist group blew up the Corel reactor (which lead to Corel's own destruction). It just smacks of stupidity.

I stand by my point that a department that was scheduled for eradication would not seek to take on more employees. It is perfectly conceivable that as part of their continuation (particularly after Rufus takes over) was that they were downsized and that their roles regarding specific missions were changed. If Shinra had far less global conflict to worry about, it would make sense to use SOLDIER or the military for tasks that may once have been given to the Turks. As for taking on Elena, maybe they did need a minimum number of staff. My point is that nothing is a contradiction in this case, it is simply a matter of interpretation.

Fair enough. You make some good points.

How many people would need to know what the Turks were up to anyway? I simply meant that they would be around if Tseng had to call in a favour.

Ah, alright then.

Red XIII must have thought for a long time that he was never going to see his home again. It would be natural for him to cry all over the steps when he returned. He feels things very deeply.

Well, no disagreement there.

I can think of plenty of reasons why Red XIII might not know that Dinne is alive. Hojo might have told him she was dead. The Turks might have told Hojo she was dead, either to protect her or to cover up the fact that they screwed up their mission. Bugenhagen thinks Nanaki is a child and doesn't fully trust him with the truth.

I suppose those are reasonable possibilities.

Bugenhagen also has no reason to trust these people Nanaki has shown up with. He may sense that there is something wrong with Cloud. After Gongaga, Nanaki knows that there is a spy in their party; he may have told Bugenhagen this. In fact for all we know he asked Grandfather how Dinne was and Grandfather said, she's fine but she's hiding, and Nanaki decided it would be prudent to keep this fact from the group.

Well, this particular possibility couldn't be an explanation. Bugen and Red hadn't yet had their reunion when Nanaki brought up being the last of his kind. The team had only just arrived.

Any or none of these things could have happened in that plot hole.

The fact that there is a plot hole here at all, though, is just ... well, as the opening poster said, BC is canon but shoddy.

I actually liked Bugenhagen's characterisation in BC more than in FFVII. In the OG he seems like such a whimsical pessimist.

I like him in both, but you're right.

It's also worth noting that the Rite to Appease the Planet takes place every 50 years. The female then goes into a cave for 3 years. Nanaki is 47 during BC when he takes place in the Rite with Dinne. Can it thus be deduced (using quick maths: 50-3=47) that he was born from the previous Rite?

Wow, I'm a dumbass. I never even realized how much sense that makes.

 

[S and G]

Wow, I'm a dumbass. I never even realized how much sense that makes.

I'm sure I've posted this before when I did my curious tie-ins and contradictions article back on ACF. If it is the case that the next generations of Nanaki's race are conceived during the Rite and born every 50 years, it also stands to reason that the cubs seen at the end of FF7 are not actually his children, but his Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandchildren

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe Red missed the first few times.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Damn it Red, take the Deathblow materia off. You know it has horrible accuracy!

 

[ForceStealer]

What I do like about BC is the irony of each of the FFVII characters helping the Turks who will later be their enemies.

When first heard the summary of Barret's story, I also liked the irony there, that AVALANCHE was the cause of what he so hated the Shinra for. But, yeah, the execution was all wrong.

Similarly, if they had somehow introduced us to Dinne and not involved Nanaki in the story at all, that could have been cool, and more of the irony stuff. If the Turks encountered her somewhere that no one knows she is. Maybe just out in the wilderness somewhere. That gives you your explanation as to who Red found for the 500 Years Later sequence, and doesn't make him look stupid.

Damn it Red, take the Deathblow materia off. You know it has horrible accuracy!

Freaking hilarious. Gold star.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I personally always thought that Hojo's experiments on Red caused him to forget about Dinne.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Actually, the other AVALANCHE idea has been around since the original game, with Barret even mentioning he named his AVALANCHE after them.

He did? When?

 

[ForceStealer]

In Cosmo Canyon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

On your first arrival there, Barret will mention it in some optional dialogue if you speak with him near Elder Hargo:

Barret
There was this guy who studied 'Planetary Life' here. He couldn't take things the way they were, so he went to Midgar to form AVALANCHE. Wanna hear more?

Cloud
- Go on

Barret
Guess you could say this is where AVALANCHE was born. I always wanted to come here... And... I finally...... made it. A lot... happened...

Cloud
- And then?

Barret
And then...? I don't know what's going to happen, now that there is no AVALANCHE...

This is what leads to his comment around the Cosmo Candle that AVALANCHE is born again.

 

[ForceStealer]

And I believe the Crisis Core Ultimania implied that that pissed-off-at-Shinra dude you talk to in Sector 8 in Crisis Core was that guy.

 

[S and G]

And I believe the Crisis Core Ultimania implied that that pissed-off-at-Shinra dude you talk to in Sector 8 in Crisis Core was that guy.

Fuhito started the militant branch of AVALANCHE. He was a student of the founder of AVALANCHE and began militant work after his teacher died.

Also worth noting that while nowhere in the games does it state who founded AVALANCHE or the Study of Planet Life, it does state that they were male (Ultimania Omega). The early materials file also reveals that the original name of the founder of SoPL that was to be used (discovered via a letter on Tifa's desk if I remember correctly) was Mon Mos. Until such time as an alternative is given, this is the name I have chosen to assume that is his (head)canon name.