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Black Materia Origin the key to my old theory.

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
#27
Where does it say that Jenova arrived on a meteor? Not saying she didn't, I just never noticed that bit in the game.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#28
Where does it say that Jenova arrived on a meteor? Not saying she didn't, I just never noticed that bit in the game.
It was never specified in the original game, but has been since in Ultimanias. Granted, it was sort of always implied in the original game by the fact that there's an enormous crater where Jenova came down -- though one could be forgiven for concluding that this was the result of just Jenova (sans meteorite) making impact.

Looks like the remake is going to be a lot more explicit about it, though:

"Alas, the Ancients themselves are long gone. Two thousand years ago, a meteor brought an end to their civilization."
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#29
It was never specified in the original game, but has been since in Ultimanias. Granted, it was sort of always implied in the original game by the fact that there's an enormous crater where Jenova came down -- though one could be forgiven for concluding that this was the result of just Jenova (sans meteorite) making impact.

Looks like the remake is going to be a lot more explicit about it, though:

"Alas, the Ancients themselves are long gone. Two thousand years ago, a meteor brought an end to their civilization."
I don't see how the last sentence can be true though. Given that Aerith is half "Ancient." Unless they are changing that as well
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#30
These details of 2000 years past were well-established as being the case in the original game as well. Their civilization was ended, their population all but wiped out, and their culture all but forgotten as baseline humanity became the dominant race.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#32
Bringing an end to a civilization does not equal wiping out every individual.
How much would've survived though? I ask that because 2000 years worth of generations is still a lot of people to survive (even after saying that the civilization was wiped out) when you think about it. All the way up till Ifalna, each parent was full Cetra. Even at 500 years ago, there would still be lots of Cetra roaming the Planet
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#33
How much would've survived though? I ask that because 2000 years worth of generations is still a lot of people to survive (even after saying that the civilization was wiped out) when you think about it. All the way up till Ifalna, each parent was full Cetra. Even at 500 years ago, there would still be lots of Cetra roaming the Planet
As has been already said, I don't think they put so much thinking in this. The Ancients are a backstory for the main story, they needed to give mysterious powers to Aerith - the last of a 'special' type of person. 2000 years is because the backstory should be old, mythical.. but they didn't think how a small group of an extinct race could survive for so long. I never read that Ifalna parents were both Ancients (though that sounds the best option) nor how many years Ancients usually lives, if they have a longer lifespan than humans...
They simply didn't think about it, that's why i wrote that I hope they clarify some of those questions in the remake.

The temple could have been made afterwards though. Which is why the gaurdians inside made it the way they did just saying therr where some cetra left and they dwindled down to 1 by the time of ff7 but this is all speculation. As for omega that was pure giaia lifestream if it crashed into a new planet i imagine it would of reverted to spirit energy. All is speculation.
I think it's implied in the game that the Temple was definitely built long long time BEFORE Ancient's downfall, not after. It's not clearly stated but that's part of the backstory.

Also as you say, if Omega is created by the Planet as well, how could be possible that a foreign organism, an alien lifeform like Jenova could be the origin of a materia, which is always implied is a form of energy condensed originating from the Planet. Jenova is a different kind of being which is an enemy to Lifestream and mako and materia, not made of the same nature.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#34
Also as you say, if Omega is created by the Planet as well, how could be possible that a foreign organism, an alien lifeform like Jenova could be the origin of a materia, which is always implied is a form of energy condensed originating from the Planet. Jenova is a different kind of being which is an enemy to Lifestream and mako and materia, not made of the same nature.
They could easily come up with an explanation if they needed to. They brought Sephiroth back despite his body being destroyed, and then even his spirit defeated, dispersed and seemingly purified. The rules for something this metaphysical can always be fluid enough at the edges.

For instance, they could say that a materia containing something from Jenova was created to sequester the taint from the creature.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#35
As has been already said, I don't think they put so much thinking in this. The Ancients are a backstory for the main story, they needed to give mysterious powers to Aerith - the last of a 'special' type of person. 2000 years is because the backstory should be old, mythical.. but they didn't think how a small group of an extinct race could survive for so long. I never read that Ifalna parents were both Ancients (though that sounds the best option) nor how many years Ancients usually lives, if they have a longer lifespan than humans...
They simply didn't think about it, that's why i wrote that I hope they clarify some of those questions in the remake.


I think it's implied in the game that the Temple was definitely built long long time BEFORE Ancient's downfall, not after. It's not clearly stated but that's part of the backstory.

Also as you say, if Omega is created by the Planet as well, how could be possible that a foreign organism, an alien lifeform like Jenova could be the origin of a materia, which is always implied is a form of energy condensed originating from the Planet. Jenova is a different kind of being which is an enemy to Lifestream and mako and materia, not made of the same nature.
I don't remember if it was someone on here that said it, or if it was specific in the game, but they said Aerith was half Cetra. That would mean Ifalna was 100 percent, therefore her parents would be as well.

I didn't think about the Cetra maybe having longer lifespans though. That's probably the case
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#36
I don't remember if it was someone on here that said it, or if it was specific in the game, but they said Aerith was half Cetra. That would mean Ifalna was 100 percent, therefore her parents would be as well.

I didn't think about the Cetra maybe having longer lifespans though. That's probably the case
Well Aerith is obviously half-Cetra because we know both her parents from the game, and Gast Faremis is a human.
On the other hand there is no clear explanation in game about what it takes to be considered Cetra. If I'm not mistaken Aerith retain all powers of her mother even with a human father. So maybe Cetra already merged with humans in the past 2000 years meaning that also Ifalna's parents were not both Cetra. Something like the witch lineage: magic powers are passed from mother to daughter/son or from father to son but the other parent can be human (like in Harry Potter - you can be half-blood but still with full powers to pass to your sons). On the other hand looks like being Cetra is a matter or blood and dna so I don't know.

I'm just assuming because I found no clear statement about it. The wiki says "Ifalna was the last remaining pure Cetra " but doesn't quite a source for that statement.
In the Forgotten City page it states "the few survivors gradually assimilated into human culture and the city has been an abandoned ruin for a long time. "
So we can assume Cetra already married humans before?... but at the time of FF7 only Ifalna was left with some (or full) Cetra blood?
 

Sephira

That Silver-haired Lady
AKA
Sephiravania
#37
Okay, now I can reply after reading all the posts and researching here and there comparing Wiki articles.

All of us know the Temple of the Ancients is actually the Black Materia transfigured by the Cetra to prevent it from being used. The Black Materia is merely the tool, the key, to summon Meteor, which is the Ultimate Destructive Magic and that's why Sephiroth wants it to injure the planet and merge with the Lifestream to become a God. Now, where did it come from... it has been never stated, at least not officially. I read that bit saying the Cetra were given both the power of Meteor and the power of Holy:

"The Cetra were given the power of Meteor in the ancient times, but because they valued life they shunned it and locked its source away in a cryptic puzzle."

But there is no information saying it has to do with Jenova, it only says it's the key to use the most powerful destructive magic. Why is it black? It could have been--- I dunno--- pink? ... If the Black Materia is black because of Jenova's cells (namely Geostigma)... why would the planet give the Cetra something made of the thing that injured it, in the first place? We also know Jenova used its mimic powers to fool the Cetra, but I don't think it was actually able to create a Materia with its cells/spirit in it hoping they would use it.

There are many questions regarding the Black Materia, all we can do is wait and see if they clarify its origins in the Remake. To me, the Black Materia is only the tool to summon Meteor, which is a spell, just like Makoeyes said a few posts above.
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#37
But there is no information saying it has to do with Jenova, it only says it's the key to use the most powerful destructive magic. Why is it black? It could have been--- I dunno--- pink? ... If the Black Materia is black because of Jenova's cells (namely Geostigma)... why would the planet give the Cetra something made of the thing that injured it, in the first place? We also know Jenova used its mimic powers to fool the Cetra, but I don't think it was actually able to create a Materia with its cells/spirit in it hoping they would use it.
Keep in mind that Geostigma didn't exist when FF7 plot was written. It's something they came up with as an idea for the AC film.
I even doubt they will keep the Geostigma idea in FF7Remake.

In my opinion Black Materia is Black because it's a reference to the traditional separation between Black and White magic in all Final Fantasy. That's why it's Black and not Pink.
Sephiroth is the ultimate Black Mage that wants to unleash the final Black Magic spell while Aerith is the ultimate White Mage who wants to cast the ultimate White Magic spell: Holy. It's a reference to the history of FF.
The Ancients inside the Temple look even like traditional Black Mages from previous FF games, the reference is pretty clear and has nothing to do with Jenova.
 

Sephira

That Silver-haired Lady
AKA
Sephiravania
#38
Keep in mind that Geostigma didn't exist when FF7 plot was written. It's something they came up with as an idea for the AC film.
I even doubt they will keep the Geostigma idea in FF7Remake.

In my opinion Black Materia is Black because it's a reference to the traditional separation between Black and White magic in all Final Fantasy. That's why it's Black and not Pink.
Sephiroth is the ultimate Black Mage that wants to unleash the final Black Magic spell while Aerith is the ultimate White Mage who wants to cast the ultimate White Magic spell: Holy. It's a reference to the history of FF.
The Ancients inside the Temple look even like traditional Black Mages from previous FF games, the reference is pretty clear and has nothing to do with Jenova.
My point exactly, that's what I mean (and the Pink Materia thing was a joke, btw :lol:) when I say the Black Materia can't possibly have anything to do with Jenova. Black and White are opposite colors -YingYang anyone?- and that's why the Black Materia casts Meteor and the White Materia casts Holy. It's a pretty simple concept, tbh. Now, I'd like it a lot if Nomura-san and Kitase-san explained how did those Materias get created. That'd be awesome.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#39
Well Aerith is obviously half-Cetra because we know both her parents from the game, and Gast Faremis is a human.
On the other hand there is no clear explanation in game about what it takes to be considered Cetra. If I'm not mistaken Aerith retain all powers of her mother even with a human father. So maybe Cetra already merged with humans in the past 2000 years meaning that also Ifalna's parents were not both Cetra. Something like the witch lineage: magic powers are passed from mother to daughter/son or from father to son but the other parent can be human (like in Harry Potter - you can be half-blood but still with full powers to pass to your sons). On the other hand looks like being Cetra is a matter or blood and dna so I don't know.

I'm just assuming because I found no clear statement about it. The wiki says "Ifalna was the last remaining pure Cetra " but doesn't quite a source for that statement.
In the Forgotten City page it states "the few survivors gradually assimilated into human culture and the city has been an abandoned ruin for a long time. "
So we can assume Cetra already married humans before?... but at the time of FF7 only Ifalna was left with some (or full) Cetra blood?
I'm going off the assumption that being Cetra is a matter of blood and DNA. If that is correct, then I would think Ifalna is 100 percent Cetra, since Aerith is 50 percent. So, that would make Ifalna's parents 100 percent Cetra, and so on so on
 
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Wimbly

Garden Festival Retiree
#40
Apparently she/it never did anything but in fact she was spreading her cells in many humans (SOLDIERs) - fooling Shinra scientists in believing she was an Ancient.
Random reply but - it wasn’t actively ‘fooling’ anyone. It was simply mistaken for an ancient. Never are we told that it fooled the project Jenova staff that it was an Ancient so they would use its cells in experiments.
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#41
Random reply but - it wasn’t actively ‘fooling’ anyone. It was simply mistaken for an ancient. Never are we told that it fooled the project Jenova staff that it was an Ancient so they would use its cells in experiments.
Not exactly. Ifalna says that Jenova infected the Ancients by taking on the appearance of their relatives and lovers.
So Jenova is a monster that disguised itself as Ancient to fool the Ancients and spread her disease among them.
We can assume that Shinra scientists found this body resembling that of a human woman, and assumed that it was an Ancient. But that appearance was a mystification by Jenova.
At the same time we can't rule out the possibility that Jenova was always able to influence the mind of nearby people... even in its "sleeping" form, to continue spreading her disease.

That's the point of "The Thing" also, the 1982 movie where an alien lifeform come from the sky and shapeshift in human form to fools human and eat them. The movie influenced the concept of Jenova
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#45
Oh right, that would explain Hojo's transformations then, after he injected himself.
It is a 2-way transformation, the disease lets Jenova turn the victim into a monster, and at the same time lets Jenova itself taking the shape of the victim and of the victim's relatives or friends, reading into the victim's memories.

For example Jenova takes Tifa's form based on Cloud's memory. And shapes Cloud's consciousness based on his memories.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#46
It is a 2-way transformation, the disease lets Jenova turn the victim into a monster, and at the same time lets Jenova itself taking the shape of the victim and of the victim's relatives or friends, reading into the victim's memories.
Jenova's telepathy works even better than that. Its abilities extend to straight-up reading minds -- e.g. Cloud's composite personality being partially formed from Tifa's impression of Cloud as a ruffian when they were youngsters.
 
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