Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

[Tetsujin]

Spike was one of the best things about season 5 imo.

 

[Lex]

His dynamic with Angel was interesting and a lot of fun to watch, but he definitely should have stayed dead. Unlike Cordelia's, his story was finished. I can't complain too much because I definitely preferred his character on Angel, but bringing him back was just a bit too fan-servicey for me.

 

[looneymoon]

The most infuriating thing about the whole Joss/Charisma pregnancy situation is that he likes to pat himself on the back for being such a good feminist. It's situations like these where even well-informed allies can have socially fucked up expectations of women bleed into their reaction to things :/

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I quite enjoyed season 5, especially with Spike there (I also liked Eve), but something fundamental was definitely always missing without Cordy. I remember watching each new episode as it came out and wondering when there was going to be talk of waking her up and why this wasn't a thing.

I was completely blindsided by what happens in "You're Welcome" and wondered for quite a long time how that could have been the plan from the start.

Clearly, it wasn't.

I really don't get writing her out altogether. She obviously could have been present for season 5 as much as they needed her to be. If it was just because they were mad at her, that's stupid.

Okay, yeah, waiting to "the last minute" to tell them about the pregnancy probably made a big hassle with regard to plans that were already in place, but it's probably a response exactly like this that had her nervous to tell them. Assuming "the last minute" means relative to when she found out and not when prior plans were being established.

If she was quiet about it for weeks and even months before saying, "By the way, I know my character is like this super important figure for the remaining 16 episodes of the season, but I can't do them all," then, yeah, I'd get upset. I wouldn't punish the fans of the show over it, but I'd be upset.

That seems to be where -- in the writing of specific episodes of the season -- Joss found out about the pregnancy, as his DVD commentary for "Spin the Bottle" (episode 6 of season 4) mentions that he already knew Cordelia and Connor would be having sex at some point in the season, but that he then moved the plot point up to the next episode because of Charisma's pregnancy.

So, let's see -- Charisma's son was born March 24, 2003. "Spin the Bottle" aired November 10, 2002, and was probably written/filmed sometime in September or October. As far as I know, the birth of Charisma's son wasn't premature, so conception likely occurred in late June of 2002. She most likely couldn't/wouldn't have known she was pregnant before the last week of July or first week of August, at which point they would already have begun filming season 4 if the July 24 start-date for season 5's filming is anything to go by.

So, there's somewhere between one and two months where she didn't let them know?

That is a sizeable chunk of time not to mention it, I guess.

Still, there was no reason other than spite not to bring her back for season 5. She had returned from maternity leave in time to even be in the last episode of season 4.

I won't go as far as to comment that they could have worked around the pregnancy altogether for season 4, seeing as she was barely there past episode 17 (of 22) and the plan was always that Cordelia had been possessed. As intended, she probably would have been much more of a physical threat to Angel, and it stands to reason that a pregnant Charisma couldn't have done a fight scene as a superbeing.

Even if she could have, maternity leave removing her from those last episodes of the season would have been a problem if she was supposed to be an enemy up to the season finale.

So, yeah, I get being frustrated over how things played out. No excuse, though, for not bringing her back for season 5, and especially no excuse for not letting Charisma know they weren't bringing her back.

I'm willing to pretend parts of canon aren't actually canon, because the show just wasn't right without Cordelia.

I don't know how much of the comics you've read, but be prepared to do that a lot.

 

[Lex]

I've read up to issue 19 (the second issue in "Aftermath") but I'm having trouble finding the rest of them online. At least there have been two issues where she has a big role to play

But yeah, I'm more than content to pretend it's all just good fanfiction and Cordelia never actually died. I'm interested to read the new Angel & Faith comics though, they're supposed to be excellent.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I wouldn't know. I officially stopped giving a shit about these comics after "Buffy Season 8" -- or "Angel Season 4 2.0" as it should have been called.

Wasn't happy with the resolution to "After the Fall" either.

By the way, I found this old TV Guide Online interview with Whedon from June of 2003:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030801081601/http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/030527b.asp

Sounds like a lot of bullshit to me -- "... we felt like we had taken that story ... as far as it could go"? Cordelia? Really, bringing her back to react to all the shit that had been done with her as an unwilling pawn didn't leave plenty of room for more with her?

-"The Angel/Cordelia [love story] had gone pretty much as far as we wanted to take it. Their romance was definitely not a popular move on our part, and I think with most fans."

I would say most fans liked it more than Buffy/Angel. I also don't see how they could have taken it as far as they wanted to take it, seeing as it had only started in season 3 and literally nothing had been done with it since the last episode of that same season, where the two were going to discuss their feelings but never got to.

If Cordelia/Angel was played out by that point, then what the hell does that say about Buffy/Angel?

-"It just seemed like it was time because we were revamping the show, and then paring it down... it just seemed like a good time for certain people to move on. Not completely, obviously. I'm hoping that we'll get Charisma to do some episodes as Cordelia sometime during the year. She's a new mother, so, like Sarah, I'm waiting to hear what her schedule is like."

Well, we know outright that this doesn't jibe with the fact that Charisma fully intended to be on the show as a main cast member like she had always been. Only she didn't get told she no longer had a job.

-"The fact is, this is not the end — unless Charisma herself says, 'You know what? I don't feel like doing any recurring episodes.'"

See above.

-"But when you have an increasingly large ensemble week-by-week, and you come in in your [fifth] year kind of having to revamp the show and trim the budget and also think creatively, 'How am I going to service all of these people?,' sometimes the people who have been around the longest, you've done the most with them."

Budget concerns are obviously a crock of shit. Sarah Thompson and Mercedes McNab were both brought onboard as regulars in the first episode of season 5, not to mention that Lorne had little significance throughout most of the final season, yet Andy Hallett wasn't ditched. Not that I could stomach letting him go for such a reason anyway, but I'm just pointing out the obvious.

TVGO: Were things left on good terms with Charisma?
Whedon: Yeah, but that's also stuff between us and not stuff that I would talk about in an interview.

I guess if not letting someone know they don't have a job anymore when you didn't bother to actually have a conversation with them is leaving things on good terms -- then, yes. Yes, they were.

Apparently it's not only stuff he wouldn't talk about in an interview, but also not stuff he would talk about with Charisma herself either. Doesn't get any more chivalrous than that.

 

[Lex]

I agree with all of that. When you consider the relevance of some of the other cast members - Lorne, as you say, his argument totally falls in on itself. But I loved Lorne so I wouldn't have wanted to lose him either. Gunn, I could stomach. Less Gunn, more Cordelia? Hell yes. I've questioned Gunn's relevance from the moment they brought him in.

It's all a big pile of crap. A long time ago I didn't think anything would be able to make me lose respect for Joss Whedon, but this definitely has.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I like Gunn and his overall story, but yeah I'd have traded him for Cordy in a heartbeat. Which is funny, cause I'm pretty sure Angel would've too if he had a heartbeat to count by

 

[Lex]

Hell, even just compare the show to Buffy. Look at the number of characters in that show that were kept long after they were relevant and basically had no major storyline for the remainder of their time there (I'm looking at Xander, Anya, Dawn etc.). They're characters that I like and I'm glad they were there, but I would argue that Cordelia had far more to give to Season 5 of Angel than any of those did to Season 7 of Buffy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree with all of that. When you consider the relevance of some of the other cast members - Lorne, as you say, his argument totally falls in on itself. But I loved Lorne so I wouldn't have wanted to lose him either. Gunn, I could stomach. Less Gunn, more Cordelia? Hell yes. I've questioned Gunn's relevance from the moment they brought him in.

I hate to say it, but I agree. Gunn was easily the most expendable of the main cast memebers, especially in the last season. Since you've watched it recently, you can refresh my memory if I'm wrong, but other than sign some papers that allowed Illyria's sarcophagus to get in, is there anything of note he did?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

He talked to the Conduit?

 

[Lex]

Nope. Got shit put in his brain knowing it was a bad idea, found out it was a bad idea, sacrificed himself to get Lindsey out because he felt guilty for being a fucking moron. Other than pretending he's something he's not for ten episodes and continuing to be the show's token stereotype, he did absolutely nothing.

In fact, I still fail to see how he was useful to the story at any point prior to this. Should have been a guest star and appeared in a grand total of 10 episodes in the entire series, IMHO.

 

[looneymoon]

the dialogue they wrote for him was really forced as well. i always felt some second-hand embarrassment for gunn's actor.

 

[Ami]

Stumbled across the instrumental of this trailer and had to share this with everyone. This is probably the best tribute I've found to the series ever.

 

[Lex]

Renamed to Whedonverse discussion because REWATCHING FIREFLY for the millionth time.

My friend got me the Blu-Ray boxset and Serenity on Blu-Ray for Christmas and I'm sooooooo enjoying going through all the audio commentaries and just listening to the show in surround on my Turtle Beach's, it's all very immersive <3

And inevitably, wondering what would happen if they made another movie. At this point, it's not going to happen HOWEVER - WHY haven't they made a video game? I can't be the only person here that's thought of this.

Joss Whedon continues the story, Bioware makes the games, yes/yes? I mean isn't this like the best idea ever? It would be the perfect way to continue the story on shiny next gen PS4 .

If there is an afterlife, it's a room with a big TV and all 7 seasons of Firefly on repeat for eternity.

 

[Russell]

^ They are making a Firefly RPG aren't they?

Yep, but it's disappointing: http://kotaku.com/firefly-is-getting-a-video-game-but-not-the-one-you-wa-8243197524

The thought of a Firefly online game is undeniably appealing: who wouldn't want to man a ship and fight across Joss Whedon's rich universe, meeting Browncoats and fighting off Blue Sun? Even Gears of War creator Cliff Bleszinski drools at the thought of an action/role-playing game based on the cult classic sci-fi series. This is not that game. This is, to quote Fox's press release, "a multi-user, social online role-playing game that will initially be available for smartphones and tablets, including those based on iOS and Android operating systems."

That sound you just heard was Firefly fans everywhere throwing up a little bit.

Firefly Online is being developed by Spark Plug Games, the studio responsible for a number of mobile games like Dairy Queen Tycoon and Plight of the Zombie. And hey, maybe they'll make a great game. But the red flags—a trailer with no gameplay; an online RPG for smartphones and tablets; the words "social online role-playing game"—are way too troubling for my tastes.

The game will be out next year, and you can sign up here. Here's hoping it's not as soul-crushing as it seems.

 

[Lex]

I read about that but it makes me want to destroy all humans. I'm talking about a real game, not a weird social one

Think Mass Effect, but in Firefly's universe with less repetitive combat sequences

 

[Tetsujin]

 

[Lex]

I was watching the Serenity extras today and his introduction made me tear up:

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I want to hope that "Firefly Online" will be good, but after playing "Final Fantasy: Airborne Brigade," the words "social online role-playing game" are very scary, indeed. Still, there's always the chance that the people making it are as passionate about it as we are.

 

[Lex]

I've just discovered Firefly fanfiction. I couldn't sleep, so I thought I'd check out what the main slash pairings were and man... some of that shit is incredibly well written. Kind of made my night/ day.

 

[Lex]

TV Tropes just blew my mind a little bit.

I was reading the "Eventheguyswanthim" trope about Angel, where this section appears:

In Angel, Doyle has this discussion about the eponymous vampire:

Doyle: He likes playing the hero. Walking off into the dark, his long coat flowing behind him in that mysterious and attractive way.
Cordelia: Is this a private moment? 'Cuz I could leave you alone.
Doyle: I'm not saying I'm attracted...
(later, Angel leaves the building, walking off into the dark, his long coat flowing behind him)
Doyle: Maybe I'm a little attracted.

It bears pointing out that Doyle passed his visions to Angel in one alternate timeline, and the only way we've seen visions passed on is kissing.

Kissing...or sex. Furthermore, according to the Powers, Doyle's kiss only worked because of his feelings for Cordelia. Which has some interesting implications.

 

[Tetsujin]

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Eliza Dushku misbehaving... I'll be in my bunk.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You and me both. Well, not in your bunk, but you get the idea.