ChaosBringers, Reborn!
- Thread starter Arianna
- Start date
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
I don't think they would touch Dirge with a ten foot pole again, to be honest. If they were going to take another shot at an FPS, they'd probably try something completely different.
We'll just have to speculate on Vincent's relationship with his father based on the very small instances of them speaking of each other. I, personally, think it was one of relative distance, due to his father's job. Although, because of the way he addresses Grimoire, I think that Vincent still had that filial respect thing going on, which is why I doubt the rebellion theory. He probably understood that his father couldn't have a greater presence in his life, though whether or not he resented that on some level is a different issue.
We'll just have to speculate on Vincent's relationship with his father based on the very small instances of them speaking of each other. I, personally, think it was one of relative distance, due to his father's job. Although, because of the way he addresses Grimoire, I think that Vincent still had that filial respect thing going on, which is why I doubt the rebellion theory. He probably understood that his father couldn't have a greater presence in his life, though whether or not he resented that on some level is a different issue.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Because I have a sick sense of humor:
http://eattoast.deviantart.com/art/dilema-97440040
A fanart comic! ;D
http://eattoast.deviantart.com/art/dilema-97440040
A fanart comic! ;D
Kamui
Laying the Beatdown
- AKA
- Kamui, Amaya, Ammy
You don't have to like someone to respect them, I don't like a lot of folks, doesn't mean I don't respect them.
Oh and since I don't have a DeviantArt, the story of how Vincent got injured:
Vincent stood in line at the supermarket, his arms filled with large heavy groceries for Tifa. She was sick in bed with a cold and Cloud was off on a delivery run so he'd volunteered to go. He checked out the items on the self scan station and carried the bags out into the freezing January weather. Unfortunately on the other side of the curb was a patch of black ice. He couldn't see it due to the stacks of groceries, one foot planted on it, he slipped and fell. Then to his larger misfortune, a large truck failed to notice him and drove over the groceries and his outstretched arms. His right arm snapped at the ulna, while his clawed hand remained intact. He tried to stand up but slipped again and snapped his ankle at a funny angle. He finally called Reeve for a ride home and a trip to the hospital.
>.< I really need to be nicer to Vincent. *hugs Vincent* I need to do my thesis but that's not as important.
Oh and since I don't have a DeviantArt, the story of how Vincent got injured:
Vincent stood in line at the supermarket, his arms filled with large heavy groceries for Tifa. She was sick in bed with a cold and Cloud was off on a delivery run so he'd volunteered to go. He checked out the items on the self scan station and carried the bags out into the freezing January weather. Unfortunately on the other side of the curb was a patch of black ice. He couldn't see it due to the stacks of groceries, one foot planted on it, he slipped and fell. Then to his larger misfortune, a large truck failed to notice him and drove over the groceries and his outstretched arms. His right arm snapped at the ulna, while his clawed hand remained intact. He tried to stand up but slipped again and snapped his ankle at a funny angle. He finally called Reeve for a ride home and a trip to the hospital.
>.< I really need to be nicer to Vincent. *hugs Vincent* I need to do my thesis but that's not as important.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
[quote author=KamuiKeyblade link=topic=221.msg6747#msg6747 date=1231437969]You don't have to like someone to respect them, I don't like a lot of folks, doesn't mean I don't respect them.[/quote]
True. I don't think Vincent disliked his father, not totally anyhow. Parents and their growing and/or older children do have disagreements - sometimes they last a long time and sometimes they can be vehement. There comes a time when a parent can't do the things that told his or her children (or one child, whichever the case may be) he or she was displeased and/or they've done wrong and to not do it again. All the parent can do is verbally express his or her disappointments and/or anger at an action (or actions.) Yeah, they can do things like 'throw them out' but... He or she can't do anything to interfere in the decisions anymore, like when his or her child was small.
[quote author=KamuiKeyblade link=topic=221.msg6747#msg6747 date=1231437969]>.< I really need to be nicer to Vincent. *hugs Vincent*[/quote]
We all do, Kamui. We all do. *hugs* ;D
True. I don't think Vincent disliked his father, not totally anyhow. Parents and their growing and/or older children do have disagreements - sometimes they last a long time and sometimes they can be vehement. There comes a time when a parent can't do the things that told his or her children (or one child, whichever the case may be) he or she was displeased and/or they've done wrong and to not do it again. All the parent can do is verbally express his or her disappointments and/or anger at an action (or actions.) Yeah, they can do things like 'throw them out' but... He or she can't do anything to interfere in the decisions anymore, like when his or her child was small.
[quote author=KamuiKeyblade link=topic=221.msg6747#msg6747 date=1231437969]>.< I really need to be nicer to Vincent. *hugs Vincent*[/quote]
We all do, Kamui. We all do. *hugs* ;D
Mantichorus
"I've seen enough."
- AKA
- Kris; Mantichorus; Sam Vimes; Neku Sakuraba; Koki Kariya; Hazama; CuChulainn; Yu Narukami; Mewtwo; Rival Silver; Suicune; Kanata; Professor Oak; The Brigadier; VIII; The Engineer
Children will still sometimes rebel against their parents even if they respect them (and respect can exist seperate of fondness). Some people, it's inbuilt. My own theory, as mentioned earlier, Vincent held some resentment towards Grimoire, because Vincent's mother died when he was young, and for some reason, Grimoire couldn't be there. While he may have largely forgiven his father since, Vincent might still feel like it's justification enough to go against Grimoire's wishes.
I do believe that Hojo was a psychopath, but in the true sense of the word - he felt absolutely no remorse about anything he did. Like all psychopaths, he saw the world simply as something to be manipulated, or to amuse him.
...That comic is all kinds of wrong...
I do believe that Hojo was a psychopath, but in the true sense of the word - he felt absolutely no remorse about anything he did. Like all psychopaths, he saw the world simply as something to be manipulated, or to amuse him.
...That comic is all kinds of wrong...
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
If I may interrupt our regularly scheduled discussion for this announcement:
MakoEyes987 has posted about club thread content, and I wish to just emphasize and make sure everyone knows that I will have to bump up the importance of the 'no one word posts' rule.
We have to try to have some content in these clubs. While I agree discussion is fine, it's not exactly what the moderators and administrators wish here, so we're going to have to keep on topic as much as possible.
If you wish to discuss something off topic, or share fan arts or whatever, that's still fine by me - but I'm going to have to stress on topic dialogue too. Meaning, if you wish to say 'hi' to someone or the group, fine, but please follow it up with something substantial.
Thanks for reading guys. I appreciate it, and please now return to your regularly scheduled (on topic) discussion in progress.
* NOTE: Firehahahahahaha, so sorry for the poor memory and such - I added you to the members list.
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
Unless something was removed, I don't see what/who broke that rule.
But anyway...
I'm not sure why you're all so stuck on the idea that Vincent was rebelling against his father when he joined the Turks. He joined the same company as his father, in his own capacity, which he excelled at enough to be an elite force.
Step away from how the Turks were presented in FF7 and look farther back than that. Was Cissnei a bad person? Was Veld? Elena and her sister strove to be considered one of those elite, and if their father was a teacher in the academy that got them there then it was probably much to his approval. Granted, we start to see some of the shady things Turks were assigned to do in CC and BC, but they were mostly assigned to do innocuous things like bodyguard people, dig up graves to see who's buried there, etc.—and Vincent's tenure in the Turks was long before that.
Furthermore, look at how SOLDIER was percieved. They were heroes, and it was considered a great honor to serve in SOLDIER—not a thing of villainous shame—unless you were talking to someone in the slums of Midgar, who were the same people quick to indemnify the Turks also. Why would it be seen as shameful to the same people who glorified SOLDIER to be one of the Turks? It's not like Vincent ran off and joined a gang, here— his father was on ShinRa's side.
Also, I'll reiterate how easy and natural it would have been for his father to have used his influence within ShinRa to help Vincent get into the Turks.
Now I see you've all run with the line about filial respect—mostly the "respect" part—and applied it to your own lives. Whether you respect your parents, or think you do, or rebel against them as a teen or adult—no; it would have been contradictory for Vincent to have respected his father and everything he did for him as his father, but then run off and joined the Turks out of pure spite if it was against what his father wished of him. I don't think Vincent was that kind of petty person, regardless of how you all want to justify that one can spit in his or her parents' faces but "still respect" them (which is a tad different than filial respect anyhow), and regardless of how this makes you feel about the way you do and/or have treated your own parents.
But anyway...
I'm not sure why you're all so stuck on the idea that Vincent was rebelling against his father when he joined the Turks. He joined the same company as his father, in his own capacity, which he excelled at enough to be an elite force.
Step away from how the Turks were presented in FF7 and look farther back than that. Was Cissnei a bad person? Was Veld? Elena and her sister strove to be considered one of those elite, and if their father was a teacher in the academy that got them there then it was probably much to his approval. Granted, we start to see some of the shady things Turks were assigned to do in CC and BC, but they were mostly assigned to do innocuous things like bodyguard people, dig up graves to see who's buried there, etc.—and Vincent's tenure in the Turks was long before that.
Furthermore, look at how SOLDIER was percieved. They were heroes, and it was considered a great honor to serve in SOLDIER—not a thing of villainous shame—unless you were talking to someone in the slums of Midgar, who were the same people quick to indemnify the Turks also. Why would it be seen as shameful to the same people who glorified SOLDIER to be one of the Turks? It's not like Vincent ran off and joined a gang, here— his father was on ShinRa's side.
Also, I'll reiterate how easy and natural it would have been for his father to have used his influence within ShinRa to help Vincent get into the Turks.
Now I see you've all run with the line about filial respect—mostly the "respect" part—and applied it to your own lives. Whether you respect your parents, or think you do, or rebel against them as a teen or adult—no; it would have been contradictory for Vincent to have respected his father and everything he did for him as his father, but then run off and joined the Turks out of pure spite if it was against what his father wished of him. I don't think Vincent was that kind of petty person, regardless of how you all want to justify that one can spit in his or her parents' faces but "still respect" them (which is a tad different than filial respect anyhow), and regardless of how this makes you feel about the way you do and/or have treated your own parents.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
(Faith kind of gets off topic every now and again; while I have no problem with it, the mods/admins do, so I'm just making sure my groups have the heads up. *shrug*)
Ravynne, you bring up good points. Still, speculating, it makes me wonder if this could be one of those illogical 'living' things. In other words, doing something one's self and having good excuses for it, but then seeing a similar thing done by someone else and loathing it (though it may have the same excuse attached via two different people.) And it's true, that Grimoire would know a lot, if not more than the average person, when it came to some of the other departments in Shinra. If there were body guards for scientists, I would not be surprised if Grimoire did not have one or a few in tow around him at times.
In other words, I am wondering if the whole of the science department at Shinra knew that they were eventually going to affect human lives. I'm not sure if Grimoire would have known about the ultimate desire to bring back the Cetra, but he was aware of the finding of Jenova - and only shortly there after did the Jenova project really begin. Of course, I do not have the notes up online before me, but one of the notes Grimoire left did state something to this effect.
Now, I do not understand Japanese, so I can only go with looks here - as in, what I am perceiving by what I am seeing. If anyone knows what is being said (again, I know there are translations, but they are not readily up for me at this time) and this contradicts my words - then forgive me and please correct me. In chapter six (I believe it was) on online mode for Dirge of Cerberus, it shows Grimoire as the SOLDIER explains to the player the flashback. Grimoire looks over his shoulder as or a little after fully garbed scientist appear behind him (and then, yes, he does dissapear), dressed for some (possibly very) messy work. This left me with the impression perhaps Grimoire did know that even his own research would affect human lives sometime.
So what I'm trying to get at is that Grimoire may not have liked the Turks, because he knew the shady side of their job. Who knows, perhaps Grimoire had some shady stuff in his own life on behalf of Shinra (like all believable characters and real living any creatures (except for the 'on behalf of Shinra'!) Perhaps, if becoming a Turk was the reason why Grimoire seemed to have a reason to apologize to Vincent, this is the reason why. His science was for the good of mankind! Turks do shady stuff because they revel in it (depending on the Turk, I agree).
I'm thinking now, perhaps it had nothing to do with joining Shinra. Yeah, I know, I'm one of the strongest believers/supporters that it did have something to do with Shinra; still, I'm thinking a bit beyond the box here. Perhaps it was that Grimoire felt upon his death that he was not such a great father; again, speculation, but - perhaps Vincent was sent away a lot (boarding school, etc.) because his father was a very busy man out in the field. Perhaps Vincent was kept in tow, but again - it was under the second hand guidance of his father that he grew up, with nannies, etc. I don't feel Vincent is, and I just couldn't really see his father (as we've seen him) as, someone who'd apologize over small things - so what ever he was saying 'I'm sorry' for was big in his heart. Then again, Vincent holds way too much guilt for a past (as far as we know it) that was out of his control to begin with, or at least majorly so - perhaps his father was the same, a romantic, and very sentimental deep down under a strict, stern thick skin.
Still, like anyone, just because you work for someone doesn't mean you like them or their practices. I can say that about many of the jobs I've held; I got paid to be there and do a job that was not illegal or unethical as far as I could tell, but still - eh - I think around me and/or higher up there were so things going on that I'm not proud about. I worked for a gas station, especially when the price of gas kept rising. Now, okay, I had nothing to do with that, but I didn't like it, as well as I feel the company was probably price-gouging. There's no concrete evidence, but they are thriving and have made a profit. I think the logic is there that - something wasn't totally fair. As well as their prices in the store weren't always low; actually, high compared to our prime competitor. Again, I admit not know all the facts, but - I shop at both places and have gotten my gas at both places... As well as I worked at one place. Uhm, I think I can say I have some truthfulness to my statements. Just put this in the mindset for the Compilation, and I feel you'll see what I mean.
I agree again Ravynne. Your discussion about respect is somewhat what I think too. I hope this is not contradicting anything said in the past, as I feel it's not. But, I don't feel it's totally disrespecting someone to do one thing that one knows is against the person they are having issues with. I can see it as spiteful, I can see it as disrespectful, but to a degree. Hopefully I can make this understood: If Grimoire didn't like the Turks, and Vincent joined the Turks - it doesn't say whether we know Grimoire's dislike of the Turks was something he'd tell or have told Vincent. I can't see Vincent's parentage really explaining or getting close to their children in that way. Uhm, I'm meaning his ancestors including his father. I just don't see Vincent being that way; it may show, but it will take much to drag it from him just what is bothering him. I can it if the action is done by the child, but if it's outside of the child's realm in his life, it's just not something he'd bring up easily and/or willingly. We all know Vincent's reticent, and while Grimoire seemed a bit more outgoing than his son, I feel Grimoire was his role model on that end of things.
(I am laughing a bit here, because: if the characters were truly alive and read this stuff they'd all be like "get the hell out of our lives!" and "it's none of your damn business!"
Getting onto a different topic somewhat - I do see Grimoire as more at ease than Vincent. Calmer, looser, but don't take me the wrong way there, though that is a small part of what I mean. Just - well for my own fanfiction and thinking - I figure he's a widower, and more able/willing to move on than Vincent...
Ravynne, you bring up good points. Still, speculating, it makes me wonder if this could be one of those illogical 'living' things. In other words, doing something one's self and having good excuses for it, but then seeing a similar thing done by someone else and loathing it (though it may have the same excuse attached via two different people.) And it's true, that Grimoire would know a lot, if not more than the average person, when it came to some of the other departments in Shinra. If there were body guards for scientists, I would not be surprised if Grimoire did not have one or a few in tow around him at times.
In other words, I am wondering if the whole of the science department at Shinra knew that they were eventually going to affect human lives. I'm not sure if Grimoire would have known about the ultimate desire to bring back the Cetra, but he was aware of the finding of Jenova - and only shortly there after did the Jenova project really begin. Of course, I do not have the notes up online before me, but one of the notes Grimoire left did state something to this effect.
Now, I do not understand Japanese, so I can only go with looks here - as in, what I am perceiving by what I am seeing. If anyone knows what is being said (again, I know there are translations, but they are not readily up for me at this time) and this contradicts my words - then forgive me and please correct me. In chapter six (I believe it was) on online mode for Dirge of Cerberus, it shows Grimoire as the SOLDIER explains to the player the flashback. Grimoire looks over his shoulder as or a little after fully garbed scientist appear behind him (and then, yes, he does dissapear), dressed for some (possibly very) messy work. This left me with the impression perhaps Grimoire did know that even his own research would affect human lives sometime.
So what I'm trying to get at is that Grimoire may not have liked the Turks, because he knew the shady side of their job. Who knows, perhaps Grimoire had some shady stuff in his own life on behalf of Shinra (like all believable characters and real living any creatures (except for the 'on behalf of Shinra'
!) Perhaps, if becoming a Turk was the reason why Grimoire seemed to have a reason to apologize to Vincent, this is the reason why. His science was for the good of mankind! Turks do shady stuff because they revel in it (depending on the Turk, I agree).I'm thinking now, perhaps it had nothing to do with joining Shinra. Yeah, I know, I'm one of the strongest believers/supporters that it did have something to do with Shinra; still, I'm thinking a bit beyond the box here. Perhaps it was that Grimoire felt upon his death that he was not such a great father; again, speculation, but - perhaps Vincent was sent away a lot (boarding school, etc.) because his father was a very busy man out in the field. Perhaps Vincent was kept in tow, but again - it was under the second hand guidance of his father that he grew up, with nannies, etc. I don't feel Vincent is, and I just couldn't really see his father (as we've seen him) as, someone who'd apologize over small things - so what ever he was saying 'I'm sorry' for was big in his heart. Then again, Vincent holds way too much guilt for a past (as far as we know it) that was out of his control to begin with, or at least majorly so - perhaps his father was the same, a romantic, and very sentimental deep down under a strict, stern thick skin.
Still, like anyone, just because you work for someone doesn't mean you like them or their practices. I can say that about many of the jobs I've held; I got paid to be there and do a job that was not illegal or unethical as far as I could tell, but still - eh - I think around me and/or higher up there were so things going on that I'm not proud about. I worked for a gas station, especially when the price of gas kept rising. Now, okay, I had nothing to do with that, but I didn't like it, as well as I feel the company was probably price-gouging. There's no concrete evidence, but they are thriving and have made a profit. I think the logic is there that - something wasn't totally fair. As well as their prices in the store weren't always low; actually, high compared to our prime competitor. Again, I admit not know all the facts, but - I shop at both places and have gotten my gas at both places... As well as I worked at one place. Uhm, I think I can say I have some truthfulness to my statements. Just put this in the mindset for the Compilation, and I feel you'll see what I mean.
I agree again Ravynne. Your discussion about respect is somewhat what I think too. I hope this is not contradicting anything said in the past, as I feel it's not. But, I don't feel it's totally disrespecting someone to do one thing that one knows is against the person they are having issues with. I can see it as spiteful, I can see it as disrespectful, but to a degree. Hopefully I can make this understood: If Grimoire didn't like the Turks, and Vincent joined the Turks - it doesn't say whether we know Grimoire's dislike of the Turks was something he'd tell or have told Vincent. I can't see Vincent's parentage really explaining or getting close to their children in that way. Uhm, I'm meaning his ancestors including his father. I just don't see Vincent being that way; it may show, but it will take much to drag it from him just what is bothering him. I can it if the action is done by the child, but if it's outside of the child's realm in his life, it's just not something he'd bring up easily and/or willingly. We all know Vincent's reticent, and while Grimoire seemed a bit more outgoing than his son, I feel Grimoire was his role model on that end of things.
(I am laughing a bit here, because: if the characters were truly alive and read this stuff they'd all be like "get the hell out of our lives!" and "it's none of your damn business!"
Getting onto a different topic somewhat - I do see Grimoire as more at ease than Vincent. Calmer, looser, but don't take me the wrong way there, though that is a small part of what I mean. Just - well for my own fanfiction and thinking - I figure he's a widower, and more able/willing to move on than Vincent...
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
Arianna said:
I'm in the process of getting the translations online again, but I have them.
Dirge of Cerberus Online Multiplayer Mode said:
And I bolded the line that seems to be of interest to you. Yes, it seems that Grimoire did know that his work would "affect human lives," because they show him standing at the forefront of the team that started doing it.
That still tells us absolutely nothing about how Grimoire felt about the Turks. You speculate that Grimoire doing shady things for his job = Grimoire disliked Vincent being in the Turks, but there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that actually points to that.
Arianna said:
More likely.
Likelier still, he may have just been apologizing for the fact that he was dying and leaving Vincent alone(?)
...Which brings us to another assumption that we all seem to have made here: We don't actually know what happened to Vincent's mother. Did she die? Maybe they were separated. Maybe nothing happened to her and she just raised Vincent, but since Vincent didn't have any issues with his mother we didn't hear about her, because the character was extraneous.
Now a largely absent father— that's something to have issues about. And maybe something for him to apologize for, whether Vincent had a mother present in his life or not.
Yes, it is. You can spin it any way you'd like, but it's pretty much the definition of disrespectful.Arianna said:
Then the action wouldn't be rebellion anyhow, because rebellion would be if Vincent knew that Grimoire didn't want him to join the Turks and Vincent did it anyway.Arianna said:
Though, again, I have seen absolutely no reason to believe that was the case.
Why? Doesn't seem like anything supports this, either.Arianna said:
And making up fanfiction and then convincing ourselves and others that it's canon is a very dangerous way of thinking if one wishes to actually discuss the compilation, or gain any better understanding of the actual characters.Arianna said:
Trust me—I know. ;D
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
That's why I kept saying the word 'speculate'. Meaning of this word per dictionary.com, # 2: To engage in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence. ~ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/speculate
No there's nothing about any of this, except the part about the science affecting human beings at some point. ;D If I may, I'm glad I was right on that one. (More so for my pride.
)
For me, this subject is just fun to think about it. Of course, it does leave the fact that we can all debate this until we're blue in the face, and well - when all is said and done, we're still at the same place we started.
And as for fanfiction and personal beliefs: oh I know it's not right of anyone other than the creators to think what is the true story! But for me, there are certain ways the story could go and for me, my story shall follow those lines. That's all I was meaning.
Also, that's why I said that I wish those involved would sit down and think it out! For exmaple, there's a lot more information about the characters of FFXII, though I haven't been following up on it (and heard/read it through the grapevine, pretty much.)
To clarify, what I was trying to say with the part about Grimoire's possible dislike of the Turks - he is a scientist, and as we know, while science does a lot of interesting and good things, it's also done a lot of horrible and painful things. Grimoire believes while his work perhaps may have some negative effects, it's still for the best of all mankind, if this is the path we're going to take in reasoning his apology later on (which I'm not thinking is correct anymore (!)). He may have viewed the Turks (who are essentially doing the same thing, but in a different way) and some of their shady going ons as opposite, and not with any good benefit. Vincent joining up with the Turks would be following the same vein Grimoire does not like.
Which does lead me to see your point, and agree more with you about 'disrepect' and being 'disrespectful.' But then again, I have to jump back to another thing I pointed out (yes, with no proof what-so-ever) that (due to what I see in Vincent's character) Grimoire may not have been the type of parent to express his regards outside of where Vincent's concerned when dealing with Vincent.
Actually, you are right - no more just leaning her way guys - via reference in same said dictionary.com ~ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disrespect
Man, this is a lot. At least we're on topic. ;D lol!!!
Hmmmm... I hope you don't take me wrong Ravynne. It's still just a debate, not a fight. I don't know, I feel like perhaps I'm being short here... I hope you don't take me that way.
No there's nothing about any of this, except the part about the science affecting human beings at some point. ;D If I may, I'm glad I was right on that one. (More so for my pride.
)For me, this subject is just fun to think about it.
Of course, it does leave the fact that we can all debate this until we're blue in the face, and well - when all is said and done, we're still at the same place we started.And as for fanfiction and personal beliefs: oh I know it's not right of anyone other than the creators to think what is the true story!
But for me, there are certain ways the story could go and for me, my story shall follow those lines. That's all I was meaning.Also, that's why I said that I wish those involved would sit down and think it out!
For exmaple, there's a lot more information about the characters of FFXII, though I haven't been following up on it (and heard/read it through the grapevine, pretty much.)To clarify, what I was trying to say with the part about Grimoire's possible dislike of the Turks - he is a scientist, and as we know, while science does a lot of interesting and good things, it's also done a lot of horrible and painful things. Grimoire believes while his work perhaps may have some negative effects, it's still for the best of all mankind, if this is the path we're going to take in reasoning his apology later on (which I'm not thinking is correct anymore (!)). He may have viewed the Turks (who are essentially doing the same thing, but in a different way) and some of their shady going ons as opposite, and not with any good benefit. Vincent joining up with the Turks would be following the same vein Grimoire does not like.
Which does lead me to see your point, and agree more with you about 'disrepect' and being 'disrespectful.' But then again, I have to jump back to another thing I pointed out (yes, with no proof what-so-ever) that (due to what I see in Vincent's character) Grimoire may not have been the type of parent to express his regards outside of where Vincent's concerned when dealing with Vincent.
Actually, you are right - no more just leaning her way guys - via reference in same said dictionary.com ~ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disrespect
Man, this is a lot.
At least we're on topic. ;D lol!!!Hmmmm... I hope you don't take me wrong Ravynne. It's still just a debate, not a fight. I don't know, I feel like perhaps I'm being short here... I hope you don't take me that way.
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
Lol I know we're not fighting. D: Sorry, I debate kinda strongly.
Only thing I still feel the need to comment on is this:
The only assignment we ever know of Vincent recieving was to bodyguard the Jenova Project scientists. Next to that, the only other assignment we can reasonably assume he might have had was the assignment all later Turks get to patrol Sector 8 and keep it safe (if this was still the case when Vincent was a Turk). Now where does that spell "filthy irredeemable killer"?
This isn't the best analogy, but let's pretend the Turks are the police. If you're a law-abiding citizen who wants to be protected, the police are great, wonderful people who put their safety on the line for you. If you're a drug dealer, the police are scum who probably locked up half the people you know.
Only thing I still feel the need to comment on is this:
The very point that I am trying to stress is that, for Grimoire's side, the Turks did do "good" things. They kept scientists safe, kept the company safe and informed, and maybe even did some of the dirty work that kept scientists' hands cleaner.Arianna said:
The only assignment we ever know of Vincent recieving was to bodyguard the Jenova Project scientists. Next to that, the only other assignment we can reasonably assume he might have had was the assignment all later Turks get to patrol Sector 8 and keep it safe (if this was still the case when Vincent was a Turk). Now where does that spell "filthy irredeemable killer"?
This isn't the best analogy, but let's pretend the Turks are the police. If you're a law-abiding citizen who wants to be protected, the police are great, wonderful people who put their safety on the line for you. If you're a drug dealer, the police are scum who probably locked up half the people you know.
Kamui
Laying the Beatdown
- AKA
- Kamui, Amaya, Ammy
Wow, I need to come in more often.
I wasn't trying to imply that Vincent disliked Grimoire, I just said that could have been one of the reasons Grimoire felt he should apologize. My friend and my mom came up with a totally different theory in which Vincent wanted to go into the Turks but Grimoire was against it.
I think that part of the reason that the creators leave it so open is that they know the fans are going to come up with their own theories no matter what they do. Besides its kinda fun to speculate about what these matters are like! (On that note, I've enjoyed flicking through the debate so far, fun times.)
I like Ravy's analogy of the Turks as police, though I think overall they were a bit more despised than the average cops. The SOLDIERs always seemed to be a bit more of the glory side of Shin-Ra, with posters and fanclubs to their most prominent members. That said though the Turks other title is Administrative Research. Which I always take to mean that they were planted in Shin-Ra to weed out corruption. There was probably some suspicion about corruption with the Jenova Project so they (the Company) sent Vincent out on double duty, protect the scientists while checking to see if there was any sort of inappropriate activity out there. However events unfolded as they did, and he ended up experimented on and locked up.
Which leads me to a random question, would where he was locked up be a coffin or a box? Bodies on the Planet disappear so I suppose there wouldn't be a need for coffins, but my mom and I have been going back on this for months, help?
I wasn't trying to imply that Vincent disliked Grimoire, I just said that could have been one of the reasons Grimoire felt he should apologize. My friend and my mom came up with a totally different theory in which Vincent wanted to go into the Turks but Grimoire was against it.
I think that part of the reason that the creators leave it so open is that they know the fans are going to come up with their own theories no matter what they do. Besides its kinda fun to speculate about what these matters are like! (On that note, I've enjoyed flicking through the debate so far, fun times.)
I like Ravy's analogy of the Turks as police, though I think overall they were a bit more despised than the average cops. The SOLDIERs always seemed to be a bit more of the glory side of Shin-Ra, with posters and fanclubs to their most prominent members. That said though the Turks other title is Administrative Research. Which I always take to mean that they were planted in Shin-Ra to weed out corruption. There was probably some suspicion about corruption with the Jenova Project so they (the Company) sent Vincent out on double duty, protect the scientists while checking to see if there was any sort of inappropriate activity out there. However events unfolded as they did, and he ended up experimented on and locked up.
Which leads me to a random question, would where he was locked up be a coffin or a box? Bodies on the Planet disappear so I suppose there wouldn't be a need for coffins, but my mom and I have been going back on this for months, help?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Actually no, bodies don't disappear when their spirit energy returns to the planet unless they're somehow no longer human, or a monster. Most normal corpses die like normal.
So coffins would be perfectly normal. Remember, you can see bones and stuff in the Shinra Manor basement.
So coffins would be perfectly normal. Remember, you can see bones and stuff in the Shinra Manor basement.
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
I'll buy that for Kadaj, but how do you explain Grimoire or Zack dissipating into Lifestream? I'm of the mind that they just didn't think this one through when they put bones there. Graveyards are more understandable because they could just be little memorials rather than actual graves.
I have a suspicion, though, that the amount of time it takes a body to turn into Lifestream varies with the individual, since we witnessed several deaths in the compilation (Aeris, Sephiroth, Zack, Grimoire, Kadaj, Hojo, Vincent, President Shinra, et al.), all with different immediate results. And I have a further theory as to what the variable is, but since I've already discussed that recently with Arianna and Innocent Sin, I'll leave it out here.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Zack's disappearance is just thematic. We're seeing his spirit finally pass on, thanks to Angeal and him finally gaining the wings he so wanted. It's just metaphorical, like the feathers floating around the hill. His actual body is still there. There's no reason to actually think his body would just disappear in a puff of lifestream.
Mantichorus
"I've seen enough."
- AKA
- Kris; Mantichorus; Sam Vimes; Neku Sakuraba; Koki Kariya; Hazama; CuChulainn; Yu Narukami; Mewtwo; Rival Silver; Suicune; Kanata; Professor Oak; The Brigadier; VIII; The Engineer
@_@ Previously, on "Ravy, Armed with Canon"...
I'll just step down from that arguement, mostly cos I don't hold any strong theories either way. I will say one final thing about how I think the Turks worked/work - deniable plausibility. If you wanted to know what they were up to, you wouldn't ask President ShinRa, as he wouldn't know. I bet most of ShinRa, Inc. were kept in the dark to the Turks' activities, just so if they were asked, they could honestly shrug and just say "I don't know".
Calling the Turks the police or secret service isn't quite on the mark, IMHO - more like combinations of the FBI and CIA in the US, or MI-5 and MI-6 in the UK. As in, they covered national security, both from threats internal and external. (So why wasn't Hojo ever whacked?? Well, maybe he has the equivalent to diplomatic immunity...)
Well, I have my own theories about what happened to Zack, and the Gift of the Goddess, but this isn't the place for that...
I've always considered Vincent to have considerable willpower, so even if his body *should* have been rendered down into lifestream, he might have kept himself together by pure will (which would be badass). (I know, I know, he wouldn't have been turned back to lifestream data, but it's still a fun theory.)
I'll just step down from that arguement, mostly cos I don't hold any strong theories either way. I will say one final thing about how I think the Turks worked/work - deniable plausibility. If you wanted to know what they were up to, you wouldn't ask President ShinRa, as he wouldn't know. I bet most of ShinRa, Inc. were kept in the dark to the Turks' activities, just so if they were asked, they could honestly shrug and just say "I don't know".
Calling the Turks the police or secret service isn't quite on the mark, IMHO - more like combinations of the FBI and CIA in the US, or MI-5 and MI-6 in the UK. As in, they covered national security, both from threats internal and external. (So why wasn't Hojo ever whacked?? Well, maybe he has the equivalent to diplomatic immunity...)
Well, I have my own theories about what happened to Zack, and the Gift of the Goddess, but this isn't the place for that...
I've always considered Vincent to have considerable willpower, so even if his body *should* have been rendered down into lifestream, he might have kept himself together by pure will (which would be badass). (I know, I know, he wouldn't have been turned back to lifestream data, but it's still a fun theory.)
Kamui
Laying the Beatdown
- AKA
- Kamui, Amaya, Ammy
[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=221.msg7428#msg7428 date=1231727491]
Actually no, bodies don't disappear when their spirit energy returns to the planet unless they're somehow no longer human, or a monster. Most normal corpses die like normal.
So coffins would be perfectly normal. Remember, you can see bones and stuff in the Shinra Manor basement.
[/quote]
That makes sense. Thank you Mako! *hugs*
At any rate I was thinking of making a Vincent tribute video, so any input for what I should do? Help, comments, suggestions, chocolate are all appreciated.
Actually no, bodies don't disappear when their spirit energy returns to the planet unless they're somehow no longer human, or a monster. Most normal corpses die like normal.
So coffins would be perfectly normal. Remember, you can see bones and stuff in the Shinra Manor basement.
[/quote]
That makes sense. Thank you Mako! *hugs*
At any rate I was thinking of making a Vincent tribute video, so any input for what I should do? Help, comments, suggestions, chocolate are all appreciated.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
[quote author=Manti link=topic=221.msg7823#msg7823 date=1231870674]I will say one final thing about how I think the Turks worked/work - deniable plausibility. If you wanted to know what they were up to, you wouldn't ask President ShinRa, as he wouldn't know. I bet most of ShinRa, Inc. were kept in the dark to the Turks' activities, just so if they were asked, they could honestly shrug and just say "I don't know".[/quote]
I think I have to go with Manti's idea here. The Turks seemed not really to know what their mission was either, just if something was asked of them, they did it - no questions asked. It was Rufus who was their head, and that kind of mentality seems to be more of what Rufus would want from subordinates: Don't think, do. We know from the original game that he believed that, and so wanted, to rule the world with fear was the most economical (anything else?) way to go. He didn't believe that anyone below him (and everyone pretty much was, except his father) deserved to be educated and to do so would only be trivial. Now, I'm not sure who created the Turks (again, I thought that was originally credited to Rufus, though I am guessing I'm wrong here), but it seems they were covert from the beginning. I'm not sure of who to compare them too - CIA could be one, Secret Service (USA), FBI - but they were a mix of all of these groups; also, they had a function that seemed to be like the clean up crew for hot item Shinra activity.
I think I have to go with Manti's idea here. The Turks seemed not really to know what their mission was either, just if something was asked of them, they did it - no questions asked. It was Rufus who was their head, and that kind of mentality seems to be more of what Rufus would want from subordinates: Don't think, do. We know from the original game that he believed that, and so wanted, to rule the world with fear was the most economical (anything else?) way to go. He didn't believe that anyone below him (and everyone pretty much was, except his father) deserved to be educated and to do so would only be trivial. Now, I'm not sure who created the Turks (again, I thought that was originally credited to Rufus, though I am guessing I'm wrong here), but it seems they were covert from the beginning. I'm not sure of who to compare them too - CIA could be one, Secret Service (USA), FBI - but they were a mix of all of these groups; also, they had a function that seemed to be like the clean up crew for hot item Shinra activity.
Dawnbreaker
~The Other Side of Fear~
If you're making a Vinnie vid (lol) I'd recommend finding some rather unique
song. I've encountered too many cases were everything was just some Linkin Park rip off
song. I've encountered too many cases were everything was just some Linkin Park rip off
Kamui
Laying the Beatdown
- AKA
- Kamui, Amaya, Ammy
Yeah they seemed to do a lot of Shin-Ra's dirty work, but I still imagine that they did get to play administrative part. After all at one point in BC we get to see the Turks going to recruit Azul to Shin-Ra's ranks.
[quote author=Vampire Hunter D link=topic=221.msg8546#msg8546 date=1232044884]
If you're making a Vinnie vid (lol) I'd recommend finding some rather unique
song. I've encountered too many cases were everything was just some Linkin Park rip off
[/quote]
Alright! Well that narrows it down, and I think I know just the song... *cackles evilly*
[quote author=Vampire Hunter D link=topic=221.msg8546#msg8546 date=1232044884]
If you're making a Vinnie vid (lol) I'd recommend finding some rather unique
song. I've encountered too many cases were everything was just some Linkin Park rip off
[/quote]
Alright! Well that narrows it down, and I think I know just the song... *cackles evilly*
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
...point taken. :-[manti said:
But—
Rufus was not the "head" of the Turks when Vincent was one. For some reason, I want to say Rufus was 28 in FF7? I'm not sure if that's a fanon number or not, but he can't be out of his 30s in FF7. If you assume the popularized/logical number of 30 as Sephiroth's FF7 age, then Rufus was not yet born or a toddler when Vincent was a Turk, and if you assume the recent implication of 25ish as Sephiroth's FF7 age (and Vincent only sleeping for 23 years), and Rufus as maybe 35 in FF7, then he still would have been 12 when Vincent was a Turk.Arianna said:
Any way you prefer to do the math, he was a child, or nonexistant.
And with that, I'll only reiterate that we have no way of knowing how shady the Turks were or were not when Vincent was one. It was many years before the next earliest glimpse of the Turks the compilation gives us, and ShinRa, Inc. was a different company with different goals and agendas (agendae?) before they were able to capitalize upon and monopolize the market for Mako energy.
I did compare them to the CIA/secret service before, underscoring that they were not inherently corrupt, but merely serving the greater purpose of providing protection and intelligence to the company.
It's difficult to back off when I have a very valid point and you're all telling me I'm wrong.
I can give you some ideas of my own that fizzled, but they were more VinLu or...well, I had another idea ("I'll Take Everything" by James Blunt) tributing everyone who sacrificed their life for something in the compilation, and Vincent would have been one of them.Kamui said:
I was going to do a VxL AMV with "The Bleeding" by Five Finger Death Punch, but after the virus that claimed my computer last week claimed that too, and my video editing software, and my video clips, it's not ever going to happen. Oh well. I still see it in my head when I hear the song. =P
"Broken" by Lifehouse could also offer a much sappier alternative.