Character Battle QF4: Tifa vs Fang

[null]

OWD: really? You're taking "I didn't know what to do" and turning it into some massive insight into Tifa's motivations? You honestly think the story is that nuanced that the very placement of some obscure quote should be interpreted as significant character exposition? If you play up every minor reference as part of some detailed, sophisticated character portrait then yeah, I guess it's easy to scoff at "show, don't tell".

And where is this "Cloud-counting" coming from? Did someone write up some ridiculous "proof" like those old LTD essays? Oh wait, now I get it, anytime someone actually sizes up Tifa's story against Cloud's you can dismiss it out of hand. Stigmatizing a valid observation with a buzzword certainly makes it easier to answer. Clever.

Look, you can absolutely disagree with me and just say you're ok with the exposure she gets. But you're bending over backward to make her story seem like some elaborate masterpiece of subtlety, as if those who don't see it are just willfully ignorant. And as a wise krogan once said, don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining. Tifa is a great character who deserves more focus. Why this is so difficult to sell to a room full of Tifa fans is beyond me.

And I still don't think everyone understands what I mean, because I still get the knee-jerk rebuttals, vague accusations of character "hate" and other relics of LTD wank. She can be in a story with Cloud attached to her hip the entire time, have deep romantic interactions with Cloud, and have the focus on her, not Cloud. Her arc can involve her resolving her own complications, and Cloud helping her on the way, and not the other way around. Doesn't that make sense? I want Tifa to be the main attraction, or at least the co-star, just once. Is it really that controversial to want to see her training, or running missions w/ AVALANCHE? Or just anything where she's not spending lots of time worrying about Cloud?

 

[Zee]

puts lips to the screen and smooches null's post

What would be the purpose of focusing on her fucking combat skills? Are we told how Aeris grew to learn to use a stick or evade Shinra?

are you serious? tifa learning martial arts helped her focus her sadness and anger, or so we are told. martial skills aren't important to aeris in the same way. but you know what we do see? we see aeris as a child, growing up, how isolated her powers made her even to her own loving mother. we get an entire sense of her youth and who she is outside of a love interest. and she only gets one disk!

what do we see in tifa's past? we see cloud trying to get into her room. we see her promise with cloud. even when she's trying to deal with her mother's death, we see it in a scene about how cloud is trying to regain his sense of self.

Now show me what exactly is lacking from Tifa's character that SE just tells us about, but never directly brings into the story.

an entire personal arc is what's lacking from tifa's character.

they tell us she spent her days learning martial arts to deal with her pain, we don't see it. we don't see her with avalanche before cloud. we don't see her personal relationship with these people, we're just told she made wedge fat by stuffing his face, so i GUESS they were close or something??? cait sith calls her out for the deaths she caused while being in avalanche, but we barely get a sense of her struggling for her own redemption in CoT before cloud's emotional detachment overshadows how she feels about much of anything outside of him.

 

[Marle]

Fine. Fair. Now show me what exactly is lacking from Tifa's character that SE just tells us about, but never directly brings into the story. Everyone is just repeating "too much Cloud" like it means anything on its own. Specific examples. As it is, it comes across as confusing being integral to the protagonist's unfolding story (and the general narrative) with Tifa not having her own story.

I dunno, I'd like to see what you define as having her own story shown , not told.

I think Zee and null pretty much said it better than I can.

But yeah. Basically, showing what Tifa did before joining AVALANCHE, how she struggled to create her own business, what she did after her hometown burned down, how she met Barret, her confliction in joining a terrorist group, how she felt about killing so many innocent people, why she chose martial arts, her relationship with her parents could have been expanded on because it's obvious they had some sort of impact but we're never shown any of that.

She climbed a mountain and nearly got herself killed because she wanted to see her mother's ghost. But we aren't shown the relationship she has with her.

I could go on. As a Tifa fan, I'm fascinated by her back story and I don't see anything wrong with saying that she deserves more of a highlight on it. Saying shit like har har tifa fans only vote for her because boobs is slightly more offensive, imo.

 

[null]

puts lips to the screen and smooches null's post

Good thing I left out that part about Aerith == Kaiden

 

[Zee]

CLOUD I HAD ONE CONVERSATION WITH YOU SO WE'RE DATING RIGHT??? RIGHT??? CLOUD WHY ARE YOU LEAVING ME WITH THE BOMB WHAT DID I DO

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

who's garrus then zack

 

[OneWingedDemon]

You're taking "I didn't know what to do" and turning it into some massive insight into Tifa's motivations? You honestly think the story is that nuanced that the very placement of some obscure quote should be interpreted as significant character exposition? If you play up every minor reference as part of some detailed, sophisticated character portrait then yeah, I guess it's easy to scoff at "show, don't tell".

I'm not "turning" it into anything. Mostly because I don't need to. How is Tifa's regret for hesitating all the time brand new information?? Her saying she was always like that, thinking she needed more time? Hell, even when it comes to her love life woman is envious of Aeris' ability to just step forth and do shit. I don't need any obscure quotes because Tifa's hesitation and passivity (in terms of never truly bringing Cloud's issues up) are already clear as fucking day.

But hey, who would ever think that her hesitation in standing by Cloud prior to this would somehow affect her choice when she is given the chance to make up for it only a few scenes later? Clearly I'm reaching.

And where is this "Cloud-counting" coming from?

That was a response to "there's too much Cloud (in my earlier post)", which was a clear reference to the number of times Cloud was mentioned.
As for the rest, I dunno wtf you're talking about and I hardly see any LTD relics. But hey, take it as you please.

 

[null]

I'm not "turning" it into anything. Mostly because I don't need to. How is Tifa's regret for hesitating all the time brand new information?? Her saying she was always like that, thinking she needed more time? Hell, even when it comes to her love life woman is envious of Aeris' ability to just step forth and do shit. I don't need any obscure quotes because Tifa's hesitation and passivity (in terms of never truly bringing Cloud's issues up) are already clear as fucking day.

That entire scene you pulled that quote from is exposition about Cloud. It's a follow-up from the Northern Crater. The quote is part of Tifa explaining her uncertainty about Cloud's behavior, and her desire to keep him nearby. Is she feeling guilty about not bringing this up when it was safer? No doubt. Did the writer place that line there in a specific effort to highlight Tifa's overall independence from Cloud? That's reading way too much into it, going out of context, and turning into something it's not.

Before that you tried to argue that Tifa & co. were going in the opposite direction from Cloud to Mideel, again showing her strength and independence. When in truth Mideel is a known Lifestream resort and the most obvious place for Cloud to wash out.

I really do think you're reaching. I don't think any of those parts you mentioned were meant to develop or otherwise significantly explore Tifa's arc. And if they were, they're so drastically overshadowed by Cloud's arc that it only proves my point.

You know what I see in all those scenes? Tifa blacks out for a week and dreams about Cloud. Then she wakes up and worries about Cloud. Then she escapes to the Highwind and talks about how depressed she is that Cloud isn't there. Then the party cheers her up by talking about her seeing him again. Then they go off to find Cloud using the Highwind (would have been pretty stupid to demand to get dropped off, imo). Then in the very next main story scene she leaves the party to be with Cloud. Then the next time we see her, she's putting Cloud back together.

Am I wrong? Am I invalidating my own observation by noticing how often Cloud is involved, and how he dominates her character motivations?

That was a response to "there's too much Cloud (in my earlier post)", which was a clear reference to the number of times Cloud was mentioned.

I understood the first time. My point still stands.

As for the rest, I dunno wtf you're talking about and I hardly see any LTD relics. But hey, take it as you please.

It's general irritation at a few other posts. I fucked up and didn't tag it. Sorry about that, it wasn't directed at you.

 

[looneymoon]

Man, I really want to respond because I think I brought up this point a long time ago in an old thread but

god so lazy.

Anyways this has been a completely pointless post I just really like this discussion a lot.

 

[Edley]

Ooh this is a good discussion and I do see valid points from multiple peeps, I almost think it could use its own topic, something along the lines of character analysis.

I agree with Null and Zee that it would have been cool to see Tifa on her own a bit more, but OWD also has some salient points.

It is Cloud's story so of course the 20 year old who happens to be falling in love with him while being the link to his past and hope for his future while he's saving the world in completely nutter fashion is going to be a tad Cloud-driven.

I do think it's important to separate characterization and character arc from plot function. Inside the compressed period of the OG and especially AC she's performing her role as Cloud's support. As folks who really like these works and read into them on a deeper level than most, some of us might think that SE was negligent in filling out the remainder of her character, but imo that's not wholly accurate. Sure a bit more exposition into how Tifa sees the rest of the world would be nice, but it's not necessary because we do know a lot about her.