Character Battle QF4: Tifa vs Fang

[Max Payne]

we had an entire thread about why tifa's arc sucks on this forum the fact that people are debating against me now for saying the same thing i did then is kind of funny

and by funny i mean i'm leaving the thread

I don't get it, you realise I'm taking exception to the things you say about the character, not how you feel about her personally?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Lesbians vs het couple

In my opinion that's probably what makes all the difference. A woman being devoted to another woman doesn't set off the feminism alarms like a woman being devoted to a man does.

In fact, I actually had never thought about how similar Fang is with Tifa in regards to the one that they love until this very moment. And quite honestly, I do admit that I was blinded by the fact that the one Fang loves just happens to be another woman.

You make a good point yet miss mine. Specifically, that focusing on that devotion ignores other aspects of both characters. Tifa's devoted to Cloud, but she's also devoted to the rest of her friends. She thinks about Cloud a lot, but she also thinks about Marlene, Denzel, Barret, Aerith, and the rest. And that's just how she cares and thinks about people she likes, not even other facets of her personality.

Actually, the notion that things are changed when it's woman and woman vs man and woman brings up an interesting concept- let's take the common joke about Cloud and make it true- he is a woman. FF7 now involves a lesbian triangle and lesbian pairing, rather than a hetero one. Change nothing else about the series if you can help it (Keep Zack a dude, even, and make Aerith bi to fit), how much does it change the dynamics at play, and how much does it change your perception of the dynamics that do and don't change?

It's fair enough to say it was literal. But I didn't ignore the repetition of 2 - I wrote that it gets used twice. I also made it clear I was only looking at the original game. That's what these polls were supposed to be about, after all.

I think it's repeated three times, but I could be wrong on that front. And, well, the discussion has decidedly progressed past the OG on its own for FF7 in this particular thread.

 

[Marle]

I can see where Zee is coming from and she's got a point. I love Tifa's character for what it is even when it revolves around Cloud. At the same time, I feel like she has this potential to be something so much more and SE really has robbed her of a chance to shine.

Tifa's story surrounding Cloud was well told and I enjoyed it, personally. But seeing as how the entire compilation sort of drags that point home, I can get why someone might find her boring. It sucks when that's all we see of her.

I do agree with a lot of the points everyone's brought up, though. I think it's interesting, tbh.

 

[Splintered]

we had an entire thread about why tifa's arc sucks on this forum the fact that people are debating against me now for saying the same thing i did then is kind of funny

and by funny i mean i'm leaving the thread

I don't think it was ever about how much it sucks. Just the recognition that Tifa's arc is too dependent on the presence of Cloud in the group. There is a lot of that going around though, Vincent and Lucrecia, Fang to Vanille, Freya to Fratley, Penelo to Vaan, etc.

But I guess I view it different, with characters like Tifa and Fang, it's never been a problem to me on how they are involved so intimately with another, it's about how people deal with the problems arising because of that relationship.

I just spend awhile defending Fang but I'm going to take a step back that it's easier to like Fang- and that's neither good nor bad. She's very vocal, easy to understand, and passionate. Her love for Vanille caused her to run headfirst into terrible situations, and to hell with the consequences, the other people involved, or even Vanille's own feelings. It's fast, it's strong, and the dilemma arises with her own conscience growing and her slowing down and accepting a different way.

Tifa approaches the problem a lot more subtly. imo you might disagree but the way she is written, she's more of a person than she is a character or trope. She overthinks and watches from afar. I don't think she's emotionally weak, I think she's emotionally battered, that after fighting for so long for revenge, she eventually finds that one thing she is willing to save the world for, and when it's in trouble- Cloud's coma- she even kinda abandons the world to be by his side (contrast to Fang's approach, where she moved so far ahead she actually pushed Vanille away from the fighting once). Tifa's got a strange thing where in the face of danger she's got spunk and confidence, but when it comes to thing that matters, the only person that can defeat her is herself.

ANYWAY

ALL DEES LOVELY LADIES

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Lesbians vs het couple

In my opinion that's probably what makes all the difference. A woman being devoted to another woman doesn't set off the feminism alarms like a woman being devoted to a man does.

In fact, I actually had never thought about how similar Fang is with Tifa in regards to the one that they love until this very moment. And quite honestly, I do admit that I was blinded by the fact that the one Fang loves just happens to be another woman.

wow really

was the entire point of feminism missed or

are we assuming that the sort of man-hating lesbian is the only real feminism here

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I think what she meant is that there's the issue of females in media always occupying the role of the mother/girlfriend/wife/whatever to a man...or something like that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think what she meant is that there's the issue of females in media always occupying the role of the mother/girlfriend/wife/whatever to a man...or something like that.

Yeah, that's what I thought she meant too. Which, as I said, an entirely valid point, which is why I'm curious how people think changing Cloud physically to female without changing his current personality 'changes' things thematically.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Yeah, that's what I thought she meant too. Which, as I said, an entirely valid point, which is why I'm curious how people think changing Cloud physically to female without changing his current personality 'changes' things thematically.

are you talking about vanille or lightning here

 

[Ryushikaze]

are you talking about vanille or lightning here

I'm talking about Cloud, but female, in the plots and situations of the existing compilation.

The Femshep Cloud to his current Maleshep iteration, if you will.

 

[null]

I've always wanted to see Tifa and Barret star in an AVALANCHE prequel. The few glimpses we get of them playing off each other are gold. That's the side of Tifa I want to see more of.

As for being Cloud-centric... I've been screaming that for years. It's not how her backstory is written, it's how she gets used. Put it this way: Cloud and Tifa are written to be equally important to each other, yet the onscreen time they devote to each other's arcs is vastly disproportionate. Put another way: I don't want to read Case of Tifa and hear all about another character's arc. Make a Case of Cloud and give Tifa her damned story back.

Also, Tifa didn't dump Cloud to impregnate some random NPC so she can't be Jacob. Tifa is the Tali of FF7. Two sweethearts who carry their curves in different places.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm talking about Cloud, but female, in the plots and situations of the existing compilation.

The Femshep Cloud to his current Maleshep iteration, if you will.

a lot of cloud's problems are rooted in his masculine insecurities, which would make him a much different person than say, a female with masculine or feminine insecurities.

whereas with femshep and sheploo there isn't this sort of problem because they don't have these insecurities.

 

[Ryushikaze]

a lot of cloud's problems are rooted in his masculine insecurities, which would make him a much different person than say, a female with masculine or feminine insecurities.

whereas with femshep and sheploo there isn't this sort of problem because they don't have these insecurities.

So you would say Cloud's insecurities are inherently related to his masculinity?

 

[Tennyo]

You make a good point yet miss mine. Specifically, that focusing on that devotion ignores other aspects of both characters. Tifa's devoted to Cloud, but she's also devoted to the rest of her friends. She thinks about Cloud a lot, but she also thinks about Marlene, Denzel, Barret, Aerith, and the rest. And that's just how she cares and thinks about people she likes, not even other facets of her personality.

Oh I know. There's a lot about Tifa that is missed when one assumes her only role is to prop up Cloud. I don't really feel like a lot of that is taken into consideration, though.

wow really

was the entire point of feminism missed or

are we assuming that the sort of man-hating lesbian is the only real feminism here

Hardly. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I just feel as though Tifa is being knocked for something that Fang is also guilty of, and that is loving, caring for, and being devoted to another person.

I personally don't think gender should matter but I do have to wonder whether or not it does in this case.

I mean, Fang is just as devoted to Vanille as Tifa is to Cloud if not MORE. She flat out admits she'd let the world burn if it meant keeping Vanille safe. I can't imagine Tifa letting the world burn just to keep Cloud safe.

So why is it that Tifa is the worse of the two for her arc being so Cloud-centric when Fang has literally nothing else to her story besides fussing over Vanille?

Now granted, I don't think either of these scenarios are terrible. I really liked Fang and Vanille's relationship. I thought it was rather sweet, and you could tell they genuinely cared for each other instead of being thrown together for the sake of fan service. XIII has a list of flaw, but that was one part of the game they did exceptionally right. I really liked them both as characters quite a lot.

But to be honest, I don't know how Fang/Vanille is that much different than Tifa/Cloud other than the fact we have two women vs a woman and a man.

Tifa even has a lot else going for her besides all the fussing she does over Cloud. It may not be the central focus, but at least it's there. Fang has nothing else.

I kind of do wonder what everyone would think if Vanille was a boy and Cloud was a girl. When you bring it down to the bare bones of the story, if Tifa was fussing over a girl with mental issues (change the reasoning for said mental issues to compensate for the gender swap if you must), and Fang was fussing over the man that she loves and trying to keep him safe, would you still feel the same way about these two characters the same way that you do?

It really seems like people are getting rather heated with their reasons for not liking Tifa. But it really doesn't make sense to lift one over the other when you look at the very basic points that make their individual story arcs.

That's what leads me to wonder if this is all about gender. A woman devoted to a man is seen as weak. However, a woman devoted to a woman has never been portrayed in quite the same way. This is more a societal thing than anything else.

tl;dr The arguing points that I've seen so far make these two seem equal if anything, IMHO.

 

[Celes Chere]

I can't imagine Tifa letting the world burn just to keep Cloud safe.

I can, She did say: "Nothing else matters now, only Cloud."
And refused to join the party.

 

[Tennyo]

You can't really blame her since everything seemed hopeless.

Fang, though, I think she'd light the match and smile as she did so.

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't think Fang is ... EVIL. xD

 

[Tennyo]

Well no, she's not evil. But she will put Vanille before everything else.

If Tifa was in a situation that didn't seem hopeless and had to pick between saving the Cloud and saving the world and knowing that the world really would be saved, would she still pick Cloud or would she save the world?

In that scenario I think it's safe to say Fang would pick Vanille.

But as I said before, and I want to make this clear, this is not a knock on either of them. It doesn't make one better than the other.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So you would say Cloud's insecurities are inherently related to his masculinity?

uh, yeah. his desire to protect a girl while comparing himself to all the other guys in the village is a very, very masculine thing

I just feel as though Tifa is being knocked for something that Fang is also guilty of, and that is loving, caring for, and being devoted to another person.

which is related to feminism

how?

 

[Octo]

I could be totally wrong because what I know about Fang and Vanille comes from this thread, but I get the feeling that Vanille was aware of what Fang was doing and trying to stop her? Like a 'you don't need to do this' kind of thing.

Where with Cloud and Tifa, in AC anyway it just seemed like Cloud wasn't really aware of what Tifa was going through as a result of what he was doing? He just thought it was for the best if he fucked off out of the way. Wasn't like Cloud was doing it on purpose to cause Tifa pain.

Anyway the thing that would really set alarm bells off (for me anyway) would be if one character was conciously being an asshole and the other was putting up with it/enabling asshole behaviour. I don't think I've seen an example of that here.

 

[Ryushikaze]

uh, yeah. his desire to protect a girl while comparing himself to all the other guys in the village is a very, very masculine thing

Is it masculine, or does it tie into his own idea of masculinity?
Put another way, does a woman wanting to protect another woman and comparing onesself to potential male suitors of that woman make a woman more masculine? Especially when that comparison is 'I'm better than they are.'

which is related to feminism

how?

It sets off 'traditional gender role' klaxons for many people. I think that's the point Tenny was making.

 

[Roger]

Is it masculine, or does it tie into his own idea of masculinity?
Put another way, does a woman wanting to protect another woman and comparing onesself to potential male suitors of that woman make a woman more masculine? Especially when that comparison is 'I'm better than they are.'

Wanting to join the army to make name for one's self, getting into brawls to impress the town hottie, making a promise to be a girl's knight in shining armor one day, yes, these are generally guy things if you ask me. I definitely think they couldn't have genderswapped Cloud as easily as they ended up genderswapping Fang.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wanting to join the army to make name for one's self, getting into brawls to impress the town hottie, making a promise to be a girl's knight in shining armor one day, yes, these are generally guy things if you ask me. I definitely think they couldn't have genderswapped Cloud as easily as they ended up genderswapping Fang.

Case in counterpoint, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from making a character who does all that, because it's been done before. It happens in real life.
But my question doesn't deal with 'how difficult,' just imagine that it happened. We enter an alternate reality where two Ns and a K decided 'Hey, let's make the hero a woman. Don't change the story, just, it's a woman doing everything and saying everything the male version of the character did.'

 

[Zee]

I just feel as though Tifa is being knocked for something that Fang is also guilty of, and that is loving, caring for, and being devoted to another person.

I personally don't think gender should matter but I do have to wonder whether or not it does in this case.

I mean, Fang is just as devoted to Vanille as Tifa is to Cloud if not MORE. She flat out admits she'd let the world burn if it meant keeping Vanille safe. I can't imagine Tifa letting the world burn just to keep Cloud safe.

So why is it that Tifa is the worse of the two for her arc being so Cloud-centric when Fang has literally nothing else to her story besides fussing over Vanille?

Tifa's a character from a series of games that seems to think her relationship takes Cloud trumps anything else. And it's not just her -- I mean did I really need to see Zack and Aeris play out an ABCfamily relationship at the exclusion of Aeris dealing with being a Cetra, being lonely, and on the run from the government in her youth? Do I give a shit that they revamped Tifa's outfit to impress Cloud or do I want to know more about her life after nearly all her friends left her (oh, wait, we do! she looked for cloud's name in the paper everyday! curiosity satisfied, whew)

the best example i can think is that she gets the amy pond treatment
she has things in her story that should be more centered around herself (the birth of her daughter) but then they get snatched up over overshadowed by how the effect the doctor (her child getting stolen is the DOCTOR'S darkest hour?? we get maybe on scene about how getting her kid taken away from her forever effects her???) and it's the same for tifa

yeah she has things going on. does the overall story arc (and i'm including the comp not just the OG) care about giving these things more than the bare minimum of attention? not really

But to be honest, I don't know how Fang/Vanille is that much different than Tifa/Cloud other than the fact we have two women vs a woman and a man.

Tifa even has a lot else going for her besides all the fussing she does over Cloud. It may not be the central focus, but at least it's there. Fang has nothing else.

holds head in hands

these are two entirely different characters in two entirely different situations that amounts to a lot more than "one is gay and one isn't"

It really seems like people are getting rather heated with their reasons for not liking Tifa.

l m a o are you serious??? i made a comment about not liking tifa's story arc and got at least 3 people arguing with me seems like the tifa fans are more heated but o k then

 

[Celes Chere]

I love Tifa and will defend her to the death with all of my feels. I'm sure Zee feels the same way about Fang/Lightning/Aerith etc

And tbh I don't think anyone in this thread is actually upset with one another? If this is heated when it comes to fictional characters, you're lucky you never went in to the LTD thread! O.O

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Case in counterpoint, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from making a character who does all that, because it's been done before. It happens in real life.
But my question doesn't deal with 'how difficult,' just imagine that it happened. We enter an alternate reality where two Ns and a K decided 'Hey, let's make the hero a woman. Don't change the story, just, it's a woman doing everything and saying everything the male version of the character did.'

so is there any reason at all you're wandering into 'if aerith lived' caliber speculation or