Character Battle QF4: Tifa vs Fang

[Ryushikaze]

so is there any reason at all you're wandering into 'if aerith lived' caliber speculation or

Please reread the post I initially proposed the thought experiment in.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Please reread the post I initially proposed the thought experiment in.

the problem is changing his gender does change a number of things about cloud

like would his mom, who seemed quite traditionalist, readily accept a daughter who picked fights and wanted to join the army? would this, in turn, effect cloud? would tifa and aerith be more interested in a female cloudor each other ? moreover, SOLDIER only has male members: that would have definitely changed cloud's desires for the army. him not being able to dream of being in SOLDIER changes core aspects about his character.

 

[Roger]

Put another way, does a woman wanting to protect another woman and comparing onesself to potential male suitors of that woman

See it's already radically different here. Cloud would be expected to hang out with those male suitors, being young boys of the same age and living in the same village. You gotta go the full mile and makes all the boys in the village girls. and gay. But not for each other, just for Tifa. And make Tifa gay too.

 

[Zee]

cloud and tifa both lived in a small, seemingly conservative town
a boy joining the army to impress a girl in a conservative town is not the same as a girl joining the army to impress a girl in a conservative town

you need to take a look at the character's background and how important their gender identity is to them and how much it affects their actions and motivations

i mean for example if you genderswapped everyone in utena you would have to rewrite the entire series from the ground up; it would not even remotely be the same story

 

[Ryushikaze]

the problem is changing his gender does change a number of things about cloud

like would his mom, who seemed quite traditionalist, readily accept a daughter who picked fights and wanted to join the army? would this, in turn, effect cloud?

Given that the extent of his mother's 'traditionalism' is expressed in 'You should find a nice woman to take care of you' we couldn't say. Let's assume that it doesn't.

would tifa and aerith be more interested in a female cloudor each other ?

As per the scenario, yes, since we're adjusting their sexuality by fiat. I understand that's going 'It just happens, okay!' but I'm more interested in the narrative effect the change would have as opposed to the in universe likelihood of arriving at the same result.

moreover, SOLDIER only has male members: that would have definitely changed cloud's desires for the army. him not being able to dream of being in SOLDIER changes core aspects about his character.

Actually, SOLDIER has at least one female member, and that's Rosso, since Deepground was picked from the regular SOLDIER ranks (I'm excepting Kai-Shelke as she seems to be a special project than pulled from SOLDIER like the rest were). So Cloud would have been able to dream of SOLDIER, even as a woman.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Actually, SOLDIER has at least one female member, and that's Rosso, since Deepground was picked from the regular SOLDIER ranks (I'm excepting Kai-Shelke as she seems to be a special project than pulled from SOLDIER like the rest were). So Cloud would have been able to dream of SOLDIER, even as a woman.

questionable as deepground was an underground project split off from SOLDIER as a specific secret. no one knew about deepground. all well-known SOLDIERs and even non-well known SOLDIERs were men at this point. so for female cloud to assume that she would be taken into SOLDIER despite being female unlike everyone else does, in fact change cloud. it makes a dream that seemed impossible even more impossible because she'd be female

because as far as the world knows, there are no female SOLDIERs. so uh yeah this would change cloud's desires because even if she WAS capable of getting into SOLDIER, cloud wouldn't know that because the only known female SOLDIER honestly isn't known. only the male ones are common knowlege.

 

[Roger]

Actually, SOLDIER has at least one female member, and that's Rosso, since Deepground was picked from the regular SOLDIER ranks (I'm excepting Kai-Shelke as she seems to be a special project than pulled from SOLDIER like the rest were). So Cloud would have been able to dream of SOLDIER, even as a woman.

Rosso was born inside Deepground, she was never a SOLDIER.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd forgotten that about Rosso, but there is another point in universe in favor of the idea of a Female SOLDIER not being completely ridiculous- Aerith's claim that the Turks would be interested in her as a SOLDIER is let slide entirely by Cloud, who was ready to chide her a moment later about how unfit she is physically for SOLDIER when she's winded.

Anyways, as interesting as all this is, and it is, you're missing some of the point. Ignore the implausibility here, out and out assume we wound up with the same scenario as we wind up with in the OG. Hell, change the world outright if you need to do so to make it fit in your head. The how isn't the important bit here anyways. It's about toying with only gender and seeing how that affects the perception of their relationship, the themes, and the narrative roles.. All other things being equal, how significantly would Cloud being a woman change the perception of his and Tifa's story in the compilation.

And Zee, in your protestation and bringing up of Utena to explain how this couldn't happen, you bring up the fact that all else being the same at the start of the show somehow, flipping the genders of everyone would significantly not just the way the show played out, but also how each character was perceived by the audience.

Put another way, if Fangu and Vanille- exactly as they are personality wise- were men, how differently would they be perceived?

 

[Zee]

Put another way, if Fangu and Vanille- exactly as they are personality wise- were men, how differently would they be perceived?

a ginger uber kawaii boy who loved wearing pink and skipping around would be perceived


pretty differently

It's about toying with only gender and seeing how that affects the perception of their relationship, the themes, and the narrative roles.. All other things being equal, how significantly would Cloud being a woman change the perception of his and Tifa's story in the compilation.

you can't swap their genders and expect everything else in the story to stay perfectly in place

it just doesn't work like that


also tifa's love interest being a heavy part of her life is not problematic. having her love interest, male or female, nearly take over the whole of her story to the near exclusion of any personal arc, is. she's not like fang who's only been in one game -- she's in a series, and for a member of the main cast, she's getting some pretty crappy treatment.

 

[Ryushikaze]

a ginger uber kawaii boy who loved wearing pink and skipping around would be perceived


pretty differently

Interesting you included the wearing pink. I just said personality, I didn't mention anything about how they might dress.
In a note about that, though, it's kinda funny, a century ago, a boy wearing pink would be seen as masculine.
The modern idea that pink is feminine is actually pretty new. It used to flop around all the time previously.

you can't swap their genders and expect everything else in the story to stay perfectly in place

it just doesn't work like that

I'm not expecting it to. I'm proposing a scenario in which somehow, it manages to work out the same.

also tifa's love interest being a heavy part of her life is not problematic. having her love interest, male or female, nearly take over the whole of her story to the near exclusion of any personal arc, is. she's not like fang who's only been in one game -- she's in a series, and for a member of the main cast, she's getting some pretty crappy treatment.

Apart from 'only in one game', though, the same can be said of Fang, the vast majority of whose story and motivations do revolve around Vanille.
I mean, at least Tifa is running a company and raising a family. For how badly her other aspects are focused on, she has other things in her life.
Fang, really doesn't. From start to finish, her focus is on Vanille, for Vanille.

 

[Strangelove]

would genderswapped fang and vanille still be hugging and touching each other all the time

because that probably would come across as pretty damn gay (maybe moreso for men since males aren't allowed as much freedom with physical contact as women), at least in this day and age (which also applies for wearing pink)

is this what this was about, idk. it's late and i lost track when characters started switching genders

 

[penandpaper]

also tifa's love interest being a heavy part of her life is not problematic. having her love interest, male or female, nearly take over the whole of her story to the near exclusion of any personal arc, is. she's not like fang who's only been in one game -- she's in a series, and for a member of the main cast, she's getting some pretty crappy treatment.

So the whole restarting her life from scratch, running her own business, helping with Cloud's, and mothering two children (none of which changes after Cloud takes off) doesn't count for anything then?

Does she love Cloud? Of course she does. Is he a big part of her life? No argument, but she's a big part of his as well. Without her, he couldn't have pulled himself together in the Lifestream. Without her urging and support, who knows whether he'd have been able to take those first steps towards conquering his own feelings of inadequacy and guilt in ACC (Everyone plays a role, but Tifa finally confronting him is what sets him in motion. What would have happened if she'd have permitted him to keep running?)?

Her personal arc is there if not as pronounced as Cloud's and, yes, he's a part of it because he's important to her (She's a big part of his story too.). It was about learning to give back instead of taking as Barrett advises in Case of Tifa to cope with her own regrets and guilt. The way she finds to give back is to care for, protect, and provide for her family. And in general just coming to terms with the past and making peace with it. Things like realizing while naming the new bar that she couldn't erase her past, but instead she'd have to learn to live with what happened and build a future ("I couldn’t erase my past. I could only compromise and live on. Tifa decided she was ready.").

Is it wrong that she should love her family? Is it wrong that they should be a big part of her life? Or is that just another choice that could be made?

You make it sound as though she has no life outside of Cloud and that I disagree with. Is she worried about him when he leaves? Yes, of course. She keeps moving with her life though- running her business, caring for her children, etc. I actually think that she shows a lot of growth from the original game where she literally does start to fall apart without him. In ACC, she worries and cares, but keeps on going and when she finally decides that she can't keep waiting for him to realize his own mistakes, she chews him out and presses him into action.

I don't care if you don't like Tifa though in truth. I don't even really care why. This statement just kind of bothered me because I think it's unfair to Tifa's character. I apologize for stepping in if I'm not welcome.

 

[null]

All I see in that quote is Zee pointing out a fact. Tifa's onscreen time is dominated by Cloud. Can you say the same in reverse? The only thing unfair to Tifa is that she is mainly used as a prop for Cloud's plot. Is there more to her character than that? Yes, but we're mostly told about it, not shown. It's bullshit. Don't confuse criticism of the way Tifa gets used with criticism of Tifa herself.

 

[penandpaper]

All I see in that quote is Zee pointing out a fact. Tifa's onscreen time is dominated by Cloud. Can you say the same in reverse? The only thing unfair to Tifa is that she is mainly used as a prop for Cloud's plot. Is there more to her character than that? Yes, but we're mostly told about it, not shown. It's bullshit. Don't confuse criticism of the way Tifa gets used with criticism of Tifa herself.

If you ignore all her own personal crisis, then I suppose. If you ignore her guilt over all that happened. If you ignore her trying to find a way to make up for her own sins and move on with her life. If you ignore her struggling to come to terms with the world as it is now and the new life that she starts.

And, yes? I sort of pointed a couple examples out or I thought I did. It was Tifa who helped Cloud put himself back together in the Lifestream and, as we find out, his reason for wanting to join SOLDIER has to do with Tifa and his inability to protect her. The promise that he makes with her becomes so important that it's referenced in most of the Compilation and even Composite!Cloud (when his head is messed up), recognizes the importance of that promise to Tifa. What would have happened to Cloud in ACC if Tifa had chosen not to confront him and instead allowed him to keep running? So on and so forth. Tifa's an important part of Cloud's life and she plays a large role in his story just as Cloud plays an important part in Tifa's.

But Cloud is hardly the only part of Tifa's life. What about Denzel who she risks her life to protect? What about Marlene for whom she does the same? Who is also at the forefront of her mind when Cloud finds her after the fight with Loz (She cries out Marlene's name, clearly worried.)? What about her friends who she describes as being a family of sorts? Who she supports and clearly cares for. Do they not matter?

I'd argue that we are shown. Case of Tifa is a novella, but a part of the Compilation and it goes more into her thoughts after the end of the game and for two years afterward. Her role in ACC is more subtle then Cloud's since the movie was about him, but it's definitely there. It's she who holds the family together and refuses to let their life together fall apart, even without support from Cloud. It's she who remains strong and together, even in the face of adversity.

 

[Zee]

I mean, at least Tifa is running a company and raising a family. For how badly her other aspects are focused on, she has other things in her life.
Fang, really doesn't. From start to finish, her focus is on Vanille, for Vanille.

but this is the problem! ok, think about it. think about fang's history. it's not just that she and vanille are lovers, they are fish out of water in a completely different age, and the danger of vanille's death is always imminent. so yeah, in xiii, she is very vanille-centered.

now let's look at tifa. she does have stuff outside of cloud going on! so, we get into her training as a martial artist, right?

no?

do we get into how being in a town so dominated by shinra affected her resentment towards shinra?

how much introspection into her avalanche days before her own story shifts focus to cloud's emotional detachment?

i would not be so upset about tifa's story arc if she didn't have the potential for so much more. and she does. there's a hell of an interesting story behind the small town girl who ended up being part of a terrorist organization. and we barely see any of it.

Yes, but we're mostly told about it, not shown.

ilu

this is essentially what i'm saying

 

[Tennyo]

But what I want to know is

If arguing about the way she is used =/= criticism on her character, why does it seem like there's suddenly a lot of hate toward her as a character?

I kind of feel like this thread turned into people who voted for Fang telling people who voted for Tifa that we're all kind of dumb for doing so. Forgive me if that wasn't the intent but that's the way it started to come off to me.

Quite honestly I don't think one is better than the other. It's mainly subjective, imho.

 

[Zee]

If arguing about the way she is used =/= criticism on her character, why does it seem like there's suddenly a lot of hate toward her as a character?

I kind of feel like this thread turned into people who voted for Fang telling people who voted for Tifa that we're all kind of dumb for doing so. Forgive me if that wasn't the intent but that's the way it started to come off to me.

what


i didn't get that at all you're gonna have to point out where exactly this happened

 

[Celes Chere]

YOU MUST VOTE FOR TIFA, OR DIE.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Tifa occupies a position where she is critical to Cloud's journey. That doesn't make her a prop. Tifa does not join AVALANCHE for Cloud. She doesn't go on the Planet-saving journey for Cloud. She cares about the cause.

She tries to keep Cloud around once she finds out he's being weird, but there's no indication she'd have closed up shop if Cloud had left. She has her own thing going and Cloud crashes into her life. Then saving the Planet ---> saving the planet by killing Sephiroth, which is incidentally Cloud's goal.

And the fight against Sephiroth is Tifa's too, albeit not in the more intimate sense that Cloud's is. "I too have lost many things because of Sephy" she says. Time to settle. So it's very much her own shit that is driving her forward.

Even after Cloud gets lost, she doesn't know what to do, is depressed as fuck because she's separated from the one she loves, but she keeps going, holding on to the hope that one day she'll see him. Even when Red says Cloud is stuck within the NC, Tifa et al still go all the way down south to Mideel, opposite fucking direction.

It isn't until she finds him a vegetable that she says she doesn't want to go on anymore, and I believe the timing is significant. Cloud is sick, may never recover, and alone. This is a big turning point for Tifa, imo, and not just an instance of ~giving up everything for her maaan~". Cloud depended on her and had tremendous faith in her. No one mattered so long as Tifa believed in him. When Cloud called on her to verify his version of events, Tifa didn't know what to do. She was scared and confused and what Sephiroth was saying was true. She failed.

When Tifa reveals to us how she met Cloud at the train station, she says "I didn't know what to do, I was always like that....". Again she repeats it only a few lines down, "I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time."

This confession is significant. It's placement is significant. She's regretful. If they just wanted to show us that Cloud trumps everything, they wouldn't give us the information they do, in the manner they do. Tifa could have just dropped everything and searched for Cloud. Could have told AVALANCHE to drop her off. But that's not it. That's not where, nor when, she becomes all about Cloud.

Because it isn't until she sees him, that she realizes what she's been doing. Being scared, uncertain, insecure. She was unable to stand by Cloud when he asked. Which is why when he's in a wheelchair with his brains scrambled, when no one is able to stand by him any more, she drops everything and decides to do it. To be there for him.

Doc: " Poor fellow, his voice doesn't even work. He is literally miles away from us. Some place far away where no one's ever been... All alone......"

I believe this is noteworthy. There is a reason all this shit takes place before Tifa just drops the team. It's a huge fucking thing. She gives up her score settling with Sephiroth, who took so much from her. She essentially gives up her revenge quest...as an act of love & redemption.

There is an instance when Barret turns back and asks if Tifa is sure Cloud is her childhood friend.

Barret: "Oh, and uh, Tifa... I don't like askin' this but, is he really your childhood friend? And not Sephiroth's shadow?"
Tifa: "Huh!? Well... that is......"
(She shakes her head)
Tifa: "No, I'm sure of it!"

This is about believing in Cloud even when he's not there to see it. Because she didn't admit this before when it mattered. So she very much has to do it. She's being who she should have been. At this point, maybe this is more important than the Planet. Personally, I think for her as a character, it is.

Speaking of the damn planet -- there is no fucking hope for the Planet. Even Barret says Sehiroth is too well guarded and there's nothign they can do.

"What are you so happy about, Professor? You know what this means, don't you? Cloud has the Black Materia! Sephiroth is going to summon Meteor! Every single person is going to die!"

"Meteor has been summoned... Essentially, it's all but over now. So, there's no need for you (AVALANCHE) now."

Aaanyway....Tifa occupies a unique role as someone who's integral to solving his mystery, because of the knowledge she possesses, but she has her own story. Yes, she cares enormously about Cloud, but her act of devoting her time to helping the man she loves instead of following a path of vengeance is not one that's only about Cloud. It's equally about herself, as well. Just because their paths intersect in the way they do, does not make her a crutch for Cloud. I'm sorry, I don't see that.

LOL @ told, not being shown. The fuck, these scenes, Tifa's arc is all about show, not tell. It's subtle and I believe it's one of the best Square's created to date. Tifa never has to tell us this via some longass soliloquy detailing her every thought. That's good characterization.

 

[Zee]

there's an awful lot of cloud in that post about tifa js

 

[Fangu]

YOU MUST VOTE FOR TIFA, OR DIE.

I'm in heaven \o/

 

[Marle]

I love Tifa to bits and I love her story arc regardless. But Zee has a point in the fact that I wish to see more behind her character. Her relationship with Cloud is beautiful and well told but I'm always curious about Tifa.

I don't think she's bashing Tifa or her character. I think it's more a bashing of SE for cheapening her character by rehashing her feelings for Cloud throughout the compilation, something we're already pretty familiar with.

In FF7, I think it was very good. But throughout the compilation, it's true that all we really see of her is surrounded by Cloud and it isn't fair to her because she's got this truly interesting characterization and background story outside of the man.

I think what Zee's saying is that SE needs to start showcasing that more and stop just telling us about it?

For example, I found Tifa's Duodecim appearance really interesting! It was nice to see her so fresh and fighting for a different cause and for different people.

Her entire story ISN'T about Cloud and that's the problem. SE only ever shows us the parts concerning Cloud throughout the entire compilation.

Either way, it didn't influence my vote but it is a truth about how SE has handled her.

 

[Fighter]

there's an awful lot of cloud in that post about tifa js

Seems to me that's because it's in response to other people always trying to count the 'amount of cloud' in the first place.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And there'd be a butt ton about Tifa in any honest recounting of what Cloud does. The two are not easily extracted from each other.

Likewise Fang and Vanille.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Also because I cba to add before:

and the danger of vanille's death is always imminent. so yeah, in xiii, she is very vanille-centered.

Cloud's a walking time bomb. He goes around beating up women and handing WMDs to the supervillain. Cloud is not only in danger, he puts everyone in danger. And they are on a fucking train headed straight towards Sephiroth and Meteor.

so, we get into her training as a martial artist, right?

What would be the purpose of focusing on her fucking combat skills? Are we told how Aeris grew to learn to use a stick or evade Shinra? None of this shit furthers the story in any meaningful way. Did we focus on Cloud's training as a SOLDIER beyond the fact he wasn't one? I mean beyond the fact they're supersoldiers? She's a female who can fight so automatically we must focus on her physical prowess? The whole damn point is that Tifa never felt like a special snowflake and her abilities never made her think so. That's Aeris' territory.

Tifa is a trained combatant and is an asset to the team because she's a pretty lady who can get info (as we'e seen) and can hide/help fund operations of AVALANCHE. If she were just some lady who could cook and mix a mean drink we'd find it hard to buy she joined a terrorist organization and they took her so willingly and gave her an important fucking role within it. It allows her to join a rebel group and doesn't make us go wtf. What's the big deal? They are important in that they allow her to do what she does: try to make a difference/avenge her family/hometown.

When we first meet her, she is a member of AVALANCHE first and foremost, not Tifa, martial artists extraordinaire, although we later know she can kick yo butt. In the grand scheme of things, she can be Zangan's best student all she wants, but it didn't stop her from getting slashed by Sephiroth. She knows she can't punch her way to Shinra's downfall. But her current skill set got her where she is.

It allows her to be a productive part of a fighting team without being relegated to the girl cheerleader. That's all we need to know for the story. They tell us enough about her without turning FFVII into "TIfa: A Biography" or fragmenting the story into just episodes of each character.

do we get into how being in a town so dominated by shinra affected her resentment towards shinra?

....ja. They murder her family, friends, hometown. That's the reason she resents them. Oh, and Sephiroth almost kills her and it's a miracle she survives. There's that too. She wasn't strong enough to stand up against them then. She is now with AVALANCHE.

It's not like she just told us she hates Shinra too and that's it. WTF, she is personally among the ones hurt the most by them. Not just in a "they're killing the planet" way, but in a "they killed everything I loved" way. And then Shinra shut up and rebuilt Nibelheim anew like nothing had happened.

Are we seriously going to play count the Cloud because this is a shared memory and a scene where they share screentime? That's fucking absurd! Count-the-Cloud doesn't diminish Tifa's presence in the story. Also, wtf happened to this font?

EDIT:

that SE needs to start showcasing that more and stop just telling us about it?

Fine. Fair. Now show me what exactly is lacking from Tifa's character that SE just tells us about, but never directly brings into the story. Everyone is just repeating "too much Cloud" like it means anything on its own. Specific examples. As it is, it comes across as confusing being integral to the protagonist's unfolding story (and the general narrative) with Tifa not having her own story.

I dunno, I'd like to see what you define as having her own story shown , not told.