SPOILERS Character Deaths in Future FF7:R (*Open Spoilers*)

[argent_angel]

I feel the "justification" is well, 1.something a lot of fans are going to like because it automatically means that that will set away the notion that this "is the OG" (yes there are plenty of fans like that) but also, 2. a device that they are utilising to install a metanarrative in the game, "breaking" the fourth wall.

I feel like they could have been more subtle, and that would have been the better approach (like their first plan seemed to be), but to each their own.

It set a theme followed by major things happening that didn't happen in og7. For them not to follow that same theme going forward would be confusing and not well received in my opinion. I promise a lot of reviews for this game are going to revolve around remake part 1's ending and the theme and elements it introduced into the game.

 

[argent_angel]

Any discussion of Aerith's death in the Remake has to consider not only whether she will die, but whether she needs to die. To put it another way, when asking whether she's a willing sacrifice, we need to consider both whether she's willing (i.e., has foreknowledge) and whether she's a sacrifice: that is, something that needs to be given up in order for something else to be obtained.

Leaving aside the question of her willingness for the moment, I'd argue that she was not a sacrifice. She did not need to die in order for Sephiroth to be defeated and the Planet to be saved. Some people are of the opinion that it's only because she's in the Lifestream that the Planet decides to muster its own defences to drive off Meteor; somehow, she persuades the Planet to do this or bends it to her will. That's certainly a possible interpretation, but there's no firm evidence either way.

The story of how Sakugichi's mother died while they were making this game, and the effect that her loss had on him, has always coloured my view of Aerith's death. Death is cruel, abrupt, and meaningless; life is precious. Aerith's death isn't beautiful. It serves no purpose. It brings the party no closer to their goals, and robs them of their healer. The Planet is arbitrary and indifferent, concerned only with its own preservation. Yet despite all this, the party struggles on, creating their own purpose and meaning, and figuring out what it is that drives each of them personally to keep fighting.

I prefer this interpretation because the message resonates for me personally.

Aerith may forsee her fate. Still, knowing how and where you will die doesn't automatically mean your death is meaningful. It may be necessary in the sense that everything is predetermined, while not also necessary in the sense that it achieves nothing.

This time around, the designers may decide that Aerith's death is necessary in order to save the planet. That will be as big a change as deciding to make her go willingly to a death she has foreseen.

I often feel many people don't look much further into Aerith's death in og7 beyond what was presented on screen and the outcome it had on the story. Developers look at scenes like this in their work with a broader perspective and understanding than those experiencing it do. They see and consider more than we do. I think I try to express this in my defense of the idea of Aerith possibly living this time but its hard to help people see things through a new light when their focus has been fixed on another light for so long. The whole "Aerith has to die" argument really doesn't hold as much weight as the people making it think it does. The developers may not even want to rehash their iconic scene of Aerith from og7. They may just want it to stand where it is and do something new this time. We don't know and won't know until we get more of the game.

 

[Zee]

But Zee, that's exactly what it is, Cloud can be violent, even outside his fits. So who's to say that once controlled by Sephiroth he can't have a really bad one? They've established that Cloud is kind of numb towards violence, and imho that was on purpose.

barret and his friends literally blow up buildings and cloud is the one hesitating to pull the trigger

i legit don't see how cloud comes across as any more violent than anyone else. the only times he starts reacting to his head blinks with violence is when he thinks sephiroth is there, and it's a reaction of self defense

 

[Theozilla]

Any discussion of Aerith's death in the Remake has to consider not only whether she will die, but whether she needs to die. To put it another way, when asking whether she's a willing sacrifice, we need to consider both whether she's willing (i.e., has foreknowledge) and whether she's a sacrifice: that is, something that needs to be given up in order for something else to be obtained.

Leaving aside the question of her willingness for the moment, I'd argue that she was not a sacrifice. She did not need to die in order for Sephiroth to be defeated and the Planet to be saved. Some people are of the opinion that it's only because she's in the Lifestream that the Planet decides to muster its own defences to drive off Meteor; somehow, she persuades the Planet to do this or bends it to her will. That's certainly a possible interpretation, but there's no firm evidence either way.

The story of how Sakugichi's mother died while they were making this game, and the effect that her loss had on him, has always coloured my view of Aerith's death. Death is cruel, abrupt, and meaningless; life is precious. Aerith's death isn't beautiful. It serves no purpose. It brings the party no closer to their goals, and robs them of their healer. The Planet is arbitrary and indifferent, concerned only with its own preservation. Yet despite all this, the party struggles on, creating their own purpose and meaning, and figuring out what it is that drives each of them personally to keep fighting.

I prefer this interpretation because the message resonates for me personally.

Aerith may forsee her fate. Still, knowing how and where you will die doesn't automatically mean your death is meaningful. It may be necessary in the sense that everything is predetermined, while not also necessary in the sense that it achieves nothing.

This time around, the designers may decide that Aerith's death is necessary in order to save the planet. That will be as big a change as deciding to make her go willingly to a death she has foreseen.

Uh Lic, you’ve misremembered a the factoid about a Sakaguchi. His mother didn’t die during the making of FFVII (nor did it influence the decision to kill Aerith off), Sakaguchi’s mother died during the making of FFIII, that’s the game her death had influence of the development of. It was Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima who are largely responsible for the decision to kill Aerith. Sakaguchi had relatively far less input in the FFVII plot and themes, the main thing that Sakaguchi wanted conveyed in FFVII was the themes of living life.

I often feel many people don't look much further into Aerith's death in og7 beyond what was presented on screen and the outcome it had on the story. Developers look at scenes like this in their work with a broader perspective and understanding than those experiencing it do. They see and consider more than we do. I think I try to express this in my defense of the idea of Aerith possibly living this time but its hard to help people see things through a new light when their focus has been fixed on another light for so long. The whole "Aerith has to die" argument really doesn't hold as much weight as the people making it think it does. The developers may not even want to rehash their iconic scene of Aerith from og7. They may just want it to stand where it is and do something new this time. We don't know and won't know until we get more of the game.

I don’t see how you can claim that the argument “Aerith is likely going to die” doesn’t have weight when the developers are literally speaking to the contrary? They literally stated that Aerith’s death is a foreshadowed event that’s going to occur and that the main plot points are going to be retained.

barret and his friends literally blow up buildings and cloud is the one hesitating to pull the trigger

i legit don't see how cloud comes across as any more violent than anyone else. the only times he starts reacting to his head blinks with violence is when he thinks sephiroth is there, and it's a reaction of self defense

Cloud never really expressed much hesitance to blowing the reactor up in the Remake, Tifa certainly did, but the only pauses he had in setting the bombs were his Sephiroth glitches and noticing the approach of the Scorpion Sentinel.

 

[argent_angel]

Uh Lic, you’ve misremembered a the factoid about a Sakaguchi. His mother didn’t die during the making of FFVII (nor did it influence the decision to kill Aerith off), Sakaguchi’s mother died during the making of FFIII, that’s the game her death had influence of the development of. It was Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima who are largely responsible for the decision to kill Aerith. Sakaguchi had relatively far less input in the FFVII plot and themes, the main thing that Sakaguchi wanted conveyed in FFVII was the themes of living life.


I don’t see how you can claim that the argument “Aerith is likely going to die” doesn’t have weight when the developers are literally speaking to the contrary? They literally stated that Aerith’s death is a foreshadowed event that’s going to occur and that the main plot points are going to be retained.

Cloud never really expressed much hesitance to blowing the reactor up in the Remake, Tifa certainly did, but the only pauses he had in setting the bombs were his Sephiroth glitches and noticing the approach of the Scorpion Sentinel.

I'm pretty sure they were speaking in the context of og7 Aerith. Also I have always said everything is on the table which includes the same og7 outcome. Have I said the argument of "Aerith is likely going to die" doesn't have weight? If I did please quote me and I'll correct it. I don't recall me ever saying it doesn't have weight. I have only emphasized the possible stronger possibility of her living this time to be a legitimate argument in remake.

 

[oty]

It set a theme followed by major things happening that didn't happen in og7. For them not to follow that same theme going forward would be confusing and not well received in my opinion. I promise a lot of reviews for this game are going to revolve around remake part 1's ending and the theme and elements it introduced into the game.

There are major changes. Zack is freaking alive, in an AU or not. Biggs to, and who knows what else. But the changes are arbitrary to the developer's will and his plan. If his plan includes "somethings will change, others however....cannot* then that still continues the theme that the Remake introduced, and still justifies certain things remaining the same. They can spin the wheel however and how many times they want.

 

[Theozilla]

I'm pretty sure they were speaking in the context of og7 Aerith. Also I have always said everything is on the table which includes the same og7 outcome. Have I said the argument of "Aerith is likely going to die" doesn't have weight? If I did please quote me and I'll correct it. I don't recall me ever saying it doesn't have weight. I have only emphasized the possible stronger possibility of her living this time to be a legitimate argument in remake.

I mean you literally stated

The whole "Aerith has to die" argument really doesn't hold as much weight as the people making it think it does.

I’ll admit I could have paraphrased your statement better in my previous reply, but I still feel that statement is inherently contrary to the developers’ statements.
And they haven’t just spoken in the context of the OG, they have literally said the Remake plot going forwards will still adhere to the major events of the OG, and Aerith’s death is most certainly a major OG event.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah Theo you're right my bad, but my understanding was that his views on death and life coloured FFVII. Which would make sense. When you lose a parent, it changes you forever, and it's a theme you can go on exploring forever.

I should probably re-word that then to say that my understanding of Aerith's death has been influenced by knowing Sakaguchi had some big thoughts about the meaning of life and death that were brought on by his mother's death and ran through the games he worked on. Although tbh I would probably have arrived at the same view of Aerith's death even without that knowledge, due to the bereavements I've experienced in my own life. Death just happens. It doesn't mean anything. Our attempts to give it meaning come from the same place as our ability to see constellations and pictures and stories in the random arrangement of the universe's stars.

She's not a sacrifice, because she doesn't need to die in order for Sephiroth to be stopped and the planet saved. Her death is meaningless, and its left to the party to try to make some kind of meaning out of it.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah Theo you're right my bad, but my understanding was that his views on death and life coloured FFVII. Which would make sense. When you lose a parent, it changes you forever, and it's a theme you can go on exploring forever.

I should probably re-word that then to say that my understanding of Aerith's death has been influenced by knowing Sakaguchi had some big thoughts about the meaning of life and death that were brought on by his mother's death and ran through the games he worked on. Although tbh I would probably have arrived at the same view of Aerith's death even without that knowledge, due to the bereavements I've experienced in my own life. Death just happens. It doesn't mean anything. Our attempts to give it meaning come from the same place as our ability to see constellations and pictures and stories in the random arrangement of the universe's stars.

She's not a sacrifice, because she doesn't need to die in order for Sephiroth to be stopped and the planet saved. Her death is meaningless, and its left to the party to try to make some kind of meaning out of it.

Oh for sure, I just wanted to correct the common misconception that it was FFVII that Sakaguchi was working on when his mother died, when in actually it was FFIII and is the FF game he attributes as having been directly affected by that event. I don’t doubt his mother’s death affected him significantly as a storyteller/video game developer, but it is important to be accurate on such factoids involving serious matter/information.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I sympathise with your desire for accuracy and I am happy to stand corrected.

 

[argent_angel]

I mean you literally stated

I’ll admit I could have paraphrased your statement better in my previous reply, but I still feel that statement is inherently contrary to the developers’ statements.
And they haven’t just spoken in the context of the OG, they have literally said the Remake plot going forwards will still adhere to the major events of the OG, and Aerith’s death is most certainly a major OG event.

Again, I never said the argument doesn't have weight. I only said it doesn't hold as much weight as those making it say it does as if it is gospel at this point for the remake. I just don't feel we have enough information and clarity yet from the interviews and the game to say for sure that anything is just not going to happen this time.

 

[Theozilla]

Again, I never said the argument doesn't have weight. I only said it doesn't hold as much weight as those making it say it does as if it is gospel at this point for the remake. I just don't feel we have enough information and clarity yet from the interviews and the game to say for sure that anything is just not going to happen this time.

If that's what you feel from reading the Ultimania interviews, you do you. But many people, myself included, feel such statements from the developers are pretty explicit confirmation that Aerith is still going to be killed in Remake (and I personally, was already expecting such even before the interviews were translated).

 

[argent_angel]

If that's what you feel from reading the Ultimania interviews, you do you. But many people, myself included, feel such statements from the developers are pretty explicit confirmation that Aerith is still going to be killed in Remake (and I personally, was already expecting such even before the interviews were translated).

We'll see what happens. In the end, whatever happens happens. At the very least I think they'll try to satisfy both sides. I think by the end of this year we'll know a lot more. Information about part 2 will eventually come out and it'll give us more to go on. The Ultimania did dampen my hope but it didn't shatter it. I think the game so far has set a premises going forward that could take any turn at the crossroads.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some people are of the opinion that it's only because she's in the Lifestream that the Planet decides to muster its own defences to drive off Meteor; somehow, she persuades the Planet to do this or bends it to her will. That's certainly a possible interpretation, but there's no firm evidence either way.

Well, her profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania does say she did this. And of course in "Maiden Who Travels the Planet," though whether and how much of that remains canon has long been a matter of confusion.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'd love to know whether that was the original intention, or something SE arrived at post facto. Because if she needs to be dead for the Planet to survive, that's a whole different ball game.

Although I guess the question remains, did she need to be in the Lifestream to do this? Could she have managed it by communing with the planet while still alive?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Excellent question, as is whether it would have even become necessary to mobilize the Lifestream had Holy been released from Sephiroth's hold sooner than the last minute.

 

[Eerie]

I personally would enjoy it very much if we got glimpses of Aerith in the after life trying to "convince" the planet to save humanity. Or protecting Cloud and Tifa when they fall in the Lifestream. Since they're showing us more of Sephiroth, this would be a welcomed change too

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe we'll get that in the Remake.

Oh man if it turns out that she needed to be sacrificed after all, then everything I believe in will be overturned. Have I been living a lie these last 11 years?

 

[Shademp]

Crack-headcanon: Minerva, following the will of the planet, was about to execute the will of the lifestream to eradicate all humanity via Holy.

Spirit Aerith appears and convinces Minerva otherwise in a spiritual one-on-one battle. Aerith limit breaks into Chaerith mode and promptly defeats Minerva with a chair. Minerva goes "okay fine I'll spare humanity" and Aerith is all like

"DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU MESS WITH A WARRIOR?!?!"

Minerva is all bruised and defeated and Chaerith is all awesome and flower-power

 

[Theozilla]

I'd love to know whether that was the original intention, or something SE arrived at post facto. Because if she needs to be dead for the Planet to survive, that's a whole different ball game.

Although I guess the question remains, did she need to be in the Lifestream to do this? Could she have managed it by communing with the planet while still alive?

Excellent question, as is whether it would have even become necessary to mobilize the Lifestream had Holy been released from Sephiroth's hold sooner than the last minute.

After playing the OG and reading the Ultimania (plus the Maiden short story), I always understood it that if Holy had been released earlier it would not have needed the Lifestream's assistance to push back/destroy meteor.
Also that Aerith being a spirit directly in the Lifestream was key to her rousing the Planet to use the Lifestream to help Holy, that if she had been alive she would not have been able to do so.
That's how I always understood it.

 

[Enkidu]

Well, her profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania does say she did this. And of course in "Maiden Who Travels the Planet," though whether and how much of that remains canon has long been a matter of confusion.

That is why I am of the opinion it is best if she still dies because of this. They could, of course, say she ha no real involvement in the ending of FF7 and keep her alive though.