Character Directions Post-DoC

[Unlucky]

And, I apologize for not being able to contribute more myself. I don't have very many ideas. What I'm really most interested in is seeing the character relationships with one another explored and developed further, but I don't really know what I want to see in terms of overall plot.

I feel the same way here, I don't really have solid ideas in my head regarding a plot, but in the next title I really want some development in Cloud & Tifa's relationship. Seriously, Cloud needs to do Tifa. I have no idea about the best way to imply it-- have a kid, show a bed for two, get them hitched, I really don't know. It may sound like total fanservice but I don't think it isn't. It's part of their character development since in the OG, CoT & AC they were anything but awkward. Showing them really working it out is a huge step since they're finally being a real family.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't want 'EC' to be focusing hugely on their romance. That would suck as hell. But this needs to be implied in one way or another.

 

[Lex]

Yes, I agree. There should be a definite resolution to the LTD. In some ways, I think I like the way it is now because they seem to have a very subtle unspoken bond, but this can get irritating when it's interpreted in other ways. I would love a scene where either one's feelings are professed for the other in front of the group, maybe after a big fight where one of them gets injured.

In regards to Marlene, I'd much rather see her take after Aerith and become a healer of some sort rather than a fighter. Her and Aerith did seem to have some sort of special connection in the OG, presumably stemming from Aerith rescuing her from Sector 7 and her time spent with Elmyra. Plus, Marlene just doesn't strike me as the fighter type. Tough, and stubborn, yes, but tough does not have to equal learning how to beat people up for a living.

This, so much this. I was actually thinking about posting this almost exact statement when the thread first started. I think Denzel and Marlene are both old enough to learn real combat/ materia etc. They have 2 (including Barret 3) of the best fighters in the world acting as parents, they are going to learn to fight. And more importantly I think, Cloud and Tifa are going to want to teach them, because if they ever want to leave Edge for any reason there are a whole lot of monsters .

I would love for the whole cast to be together again for some adventure to finally bring closure to the compilation, I don't actually find this too difficult to headcanon in. What I can't seem to do is find a significant enough reason for Tifa to leave with the crowd the way she's currently written. But something about the way it's OK for Cloud to just fuck off whenever he wants and her to be stuck at the bar doesn't sit well with me. Tifa is badass. I know the fangasming over her can be annoying, but she really is a phenomenal character.

That said, other members of the original 8 really need their time if there is going to be a continuation. One thing about the titles in the compilation that pissed me off is that they tend to dangle these characters in front of you for 2 minutes then yank them away.

It's like: "Know those characters you love, the reason you bought this? We're telling you snippets of info about them, but then we're yanking them away."

I'm talking mainly Red XIII, Barret and Cid here. They haven't really had huge parts to play, just small bits here and there. Yuffie and Cait Sith had a bigger part in DoC.

 

[Unlucky]

I do like the subtlety of Cloud & Tifa's relationship, in fact one of the things I really like about them is the unspoken understanding between them that are evident in real life couples who have known each other for so long. I honestly expect that same attitude from them to each other in the next title to preserve the mystery and keep the fans interested. But if the same thing is going to be shown and nothing else then where is the development? Hence I really want to see a solid evidence that they took their relationship to the next level.

The group coming together and going to another adventure is absolutely a great idea especially if there is a fair exposure of each character for balance. I'd rather not have Marlene and Denzel take the lead or play major roles though; I like them to stay the way they are, grown and somehow independent but still as Cloud & Tifa's children. Maybe these two can go work for the WRO (like Marlene being a healer as you say) and have them leave the house for said duty. In that case it's easy to imagine Cloud and Tifa having empty nest syndrome, and will give them the reason to venture off to a new adventure, deepen the relationship they have and give them time to reflect on what they want in their lives next.

 

[OWA-2]

At this point I'm not even sure if we are going to see what happens after DoC.

 

[Roger]

This changes when a fellow student of Zangan-style fighting arrives at Seventh Heaven. After a long conversation and an intense sparring session with this fellow fighter she realises that, despite her being such an adept fighter, she has let her skill and the teachings of Zangan go to waste. She wants to set up a martial arts dojo in Edge, but does not know how to do so and she wants to find more of Zangan's students.

Zangan's students number in the low hundreds, one of them cutting back a just little to become a mother being treated as a crime against humanity isn't something I'm down with.

The fact that she was going around with fighting gloves in her backpocket and that Matlene wasn't the least bit surprised to see her bust some insane moves against Loz clearly means she was still training, and she had been working in a bar when FFVII started too. How is this OOC for Tifa? She has never an adventurer by trade. She never left Nibelheim and after Zangan brought her too Midgar she never left Midgar until her home was crushed and Cloud and Barret felt like starting a crusade against Sephiroth.

For her to look at her life as manager of the Seventh Heaven and go "this totally isn't me" would be to reject everything we know about her up to this point.

 

[Shademp]

Zangan's students number in the low hundreds, one of them cutting back a just little to become a mother being treated as a crime against humanity isn't something I'm down with.

The fact that she was going around with fighting gloves in her backpocket and that Matlene wasn't the least bit surprised to see her bust some insane moves against Loz clearly means she was still training, and she had been working in a bar when FFVII started too. How is this OOC for Tifa? She has never an adventurer by trade. She never left Nibelheim and after Zangan brought her too Midgar she never left Midgar until her home was crushed and Cloud and Barret felt like starting a crusade against Sephiroth.

For her to look at her life as manager of the Seventh Heaven and go "this totally isn't me" would be to reject everything we know about her up to this point.

You are correct and my idea was bad.
Also, I should not have begun the thread by sharing my own idea since now this is all that people will react to. =/
I want to see more ideas and scenarios from the people of this forum.

 

[ForceStealer]

THANK YOU Minato. I do not understand everyone's contention that her compilation presentation is out of character. As you say, it's clear she's still training, both from her moves in Advent Children, and that she's trouncing through Midgar beating up Deepground Soldiers in DoC.

Some have admitted that they don't find Tifa's behavior out of character but simply boring, and that's fine as personal preference. But she hasn't done anything that I find hard to believe that she would do.

That said I don't see a problem with her opening a dojo in Edge, but I feel like it might not be til she's a little older, and I don't see her travelling for it either.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Here's a start at least...

While dilivering something to Mideel, Cloud hears rumors that there has been a sudden drop in the local monster population. He goes out to investigate finds out that Genesis and Weiss have set up shop in Banora. After an initial confrontation, he gets things straightened out with them (Hojo being in control of Weiss's body etc.) and learns that while he defeated Sephiroth for the time being (next couple thousand years) there are still enough S and J Cells floating around the world for him to reform.

Cloud goes to Reeve and WRO to tell them about the problem, but they don't beleive him because of who he got the information from. Cloud and the few people who do beleive him (Tifa, Vincent, Shelke, more from AVALANCHE, and Rufus and the Turks) decided to go to Cosmo Canyon/the Forgotten City to see if the Anchients left behind any trace of how they mangaged to defeat Jenova the first time...

And it could go from there.


Things to deal with:

--how much control over local Governments does the WRO really have?
--is there a way to destroy S and J cells without killing people?
--what has happened to all the old Shin-Ra employees (not the Turks)? did they start working for WRO?
--is their S and J Cells in geostigma?

If I have more time I'll come up with more personalized story arcs.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I would be ghappy with a EC that pretended Genesis never existed, but since that isn't going to happen....I like that idea. When you say "set up shop" do you mean that they are in business together?

Obviously I think it would be awesome if one could choose to play as one of the Turks, or include them, at least from time to time, in one's party.

 

[Ghost X]

I'd like a mostly fresh cast for "FFVII:EC". Marlene and Denzel being the only two I'd like as permanent playable characters. Other characters from the compilation could make playable cameos, but nothing beyond that. The developers need to take a fresh approach, methinks.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

One of my least favorite things about DoC was all the new people getting attention and the cast of the OG, sans Vincent of course, getting damn near nothing. So yeah, no please to that Ghost.

 

[Ghost X]

Admittedly, most compilation characters are shit, but that is a non-sequitur. New characters could be good if done well, but yes, chances of that happening with SE is low. Reason I want new characters is because I'm not really interested in the old ones any more >.>

*runs away*.

 

[null]

Sweet Jesus. How much time/energy is Tifa supposed to have? Raising two kids and being the full-time owner/operator of a Bar & Grill shouldn't really leave her much time to take on yet another job.


And honestly this criticism of Tifa is completely unjustified.

I think the point is that some fans don't want to see her sidelined with mundane activities, regardless of it being justifiable and in-character for her to do so. Think of how stupid it would look for Cloud to be reduced to an NPC because he's too busy with his delivery service.

 

[Octo]

Admittedly, most compilation characters are shit, but that is a non-sequitur. New characters could be good if done well, but yes, chances of that happening with SE is low. Reason I want new characters is because I'm not really interested in the old ones any more >.>

*runs away*.

Come back!

I know what you mean, but then I think the reason I lost interest in most of the old characters is down to SE's treatment of them. I really believe much of the compilation's characterisation is fan service....like they've been reading fanfics religiously or something. I get that they've got to please the fans to an extent, but its like they've just run out of ideas themselves. So its kind of no wonder we get bored by them.

 

[Ghost X]

...I think the reason I lost interest in most of the old characters is down to SE's treatment of them.

Yeah, I'd say I follow similar reasoning. There's been plenty a franchise that has survived with the same characters because they've been written well. Compilation of FFVII isn't one of them =p.

 

[Vendel]

I think the point is that some fans don't want to see her sidelined with mundane activities, regardless of it being justifiable and in-character for her to do so.

Well the problems people have with Tifa are varied. With some I do get the feeling that they are offended Tifa would choose to settle down. Cloud somehow avoids this criticism. I guess by virtue of being (mostly) a man.

Others say she is too Cloud centric. And yet again Cloud somehow avoids criticism about being Tifa centric. In fact I would say Cloud is much much worse. I'm not sure Cloud could function as a human for long without Tifa in his life. Not even going into how his life revolved around her (almost creepily) from his childhood on. But Tifa gets the hate because she is a homebody who is devoted to her man.

And of course you have the idea that we just don't see her doing enough. I would counter with the fact that we don't see anyone else doing much of anything either. And when we do we get DoC....... Just think about that.

Think of how stupid it would look for Cloud to be reduced to an NPC because he's too busy with his delivery service.

Oh I don't know. I could easily see Cloud not wanting to get involved in some big adventure until he felt his family was threatened.

 

[Shademp]

Others say she is too Cloud centric. And yet again Cloud somehow avoids criticism about being Tifa centric. In fact I would say Cloud is much much worse. I'm not sure Cloud could function as a human for long without Tifa in his life. Not even going into how his life revolved around her (almost creepily) from his childhood on.

I think a lot of it is because of the dialogue she gets.

-------------------------------------------------------
On the Highwind when Cloud is gone:

Tifa: “If only Cloud was here, everything would be fine.”
“Cloud would…”
“…stand that cocky little way he did, and tell us what to do.”
“He'd say, 'Everything's under control, Tifa.'”
Barret: “Tifa! When'd you become such a wimp!”
Tifa:“I'm sorry, Barret.”
“I'm so depressed, I'm surprised at myself.”


Before going down the Northern Crater:


“Hey, Cloud… Would you tell me 'It's all right'?”
A: Say it cool
B: Say it normal
C: Don't say it

If A:
Cloud: “It's all right, Tifa.”
Tifa: “Now I feel like things are really going to be all right.”
“Thanks, Cloud.”

Tifa's permanent talk-to line after this:
“I'm all right. I'm not going to chicken out at the last minute.”

If B:
Cloud: “…It's all right.”
Tifa: “You're right, things will be all right.”

Tifa's permanent talk-to line after this:
“I'm…all right…really… I'll fight my hardest…”

If C:
Cloud: “…I just can't say it that easy.”
Tifa: “I'm sorry…I guess you're right.”

Tifa's permanent talk-to line after this:
“……Wow. I guess…I am a little scared. My knees are trembling.”
-------------------------------------------------------

Tifa is Cloud-centric and Cloud is Tifa-centric. But Tifa's dialogue in the original game makes her stand out to me as weak and very dependant on Cloud for emotional support. I can't find as many examples in Cloud's script, but do correct me in case I missed anything.

There is also the fact that with Cloud, we have his dynamic with Sephiroth, plus his relation to Zack and Aerith. These are core defining FFVII characters and relations. Tifa in relation to other characters, aside from Cloud, do not stand out very much in comparison.

I'm btw neither defending nor attacking the criticism anymore against the idea of Tifa settling down. What I address above are the reasons I think Tifa needs a story arc that does not have (much) to do with Cloud.

And of course you have the idea that we just don't see her doing enough. I would counter with the fact that we don't see anyone else doing much of anything either.

What slightly annoys me is the fact that in AC, she loses consciousness not once but twice. In ACC, there is also the added scene where Cloud saves her from the falling debris. I want to see her kick more ass and not need to be saved, since I think the "Cloud will come save me right?" arc is finished by now.

Granted, no part of the story or any book has clearly spelled it out to us that Tifa is unusually über-powerful. Not that I know of, anyway. Me wanting to see Tifa as an even stronger and capable fighter is due to the devastating effects I've seen her limit breaks cause in-game.
Yes, I want to see Tifa performing "Meteor Strike" on a Behemoth enemy in a cutscene. That's my personal preference as to how far her canon power should go in comparison to in-game performances; I'm not demanding that her performing Meteor Strike on Emerald/Ruby Weapon should be canon.


So in whatever shape or circumstance, I want EC to show her getting even stronger and unleashing a new limit break (preferably while her body is radiating like Cloud does in ACC)
Give me that and a story that focuses on, for example, her martial arts.

 

[ForceStealer]

Cloud also passes out twice. And I think people make too much out of characters being "saved" in AC. Everyone is constantly "saving" one another in that Bahamut fight. I think it was how they were depicting teamwork, not demonstrating the strength of certain characters over others.

And you can point to those lines and say Tifa's dependant on Cloud (although she and Barret expressly state how unusual it is for her to behave that way), but howabout the fact that if it weren't for Tifa Cloud would still be drooling in a wheelchair, if not just just flattened in Mideel?

 

[Shademp]

Cloud also passes out twice. And I think people make too much out of characters being "saved" in AC. Everyone is constantly "saving" one another in that Bahamut fight. I think it was how they were depicting teamwork, not demonstrating the strength of certain characters over others.

Fair point.

And you can point to those lines and say Tifa's dependant on Cloud (although she and Barret expressly state how unusual it is for her to behave that way), but howabout the fact that if it weren't for Tifa Cloud would still be drooling in a wheelchair, if not just just flattened in Mideel?

Indeed Cloud very likely owes his life to Tifa, but my previous point was that Tifa has more dialogue that clearly spells out how her emotions are affected by Cloud's presence and his words.
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud can piece together his identity in the Lifestream. Then in AC, thanks to Tifa (+Vincent) Cloud pulls himself together and stops dilly-dallying. But again, I am yet to see Cloud saying
"Tifa, please tell me everything will be alright". That was my point.

 

[Vendel]

But again, I am yet to see Cloud saying
"Tifa, please tell me everything will be alright". That was my point.

Doesn't Cloud tell Tifa in the OG only her opinion matters?


Not to mention the beginning of CoT.

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

 

[Shademp]

Doesn't Cloud tell Tifa in the OG only her opinion matters?

He says it when Sephiroth tries to convince Cloud that he wasn't in Nibelheim 5 years prior.

Cloud:
“That's why you shouldn't be so scared.”
“No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your opinion that counts…”

So here it is more in the context of "only what you say about my past matters".


Ok, enough with this side-step. Once the weekend is over, I'll come back and present some other ideas.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I would be ghappy with a EC that pretended Genesis never existed, but since that isn't going to happen....I like that idea. When you say "set up shop" do you mean that they are in business together?

Kinda. I was going with the line of thought that Genesis has been out of commision ever since the end of CC and Weiss fell from far up in the atmosphere so they both have to get back into shape. Genesis' sword is in Banora so he would have to go back there to get it and there's lots of mako, scientific equipment, and strong monsters around. It's more like it's their base for the time being.

The way I figured it was that the people in Mideel saw high-level magic/summons being thrown around in the distance and asked Cloud to check it out since they knew he could deal with it.

More personalized stories...

Rufus & Turks: By this point, Rufus wants Sephiroth gone and done for and the Planet satisfied. This has more to do with the fact that no long term planning can get done with the threat of the world over his head. Both he and the Turks don't really care how this gets done as long as it gets done. This can go as far as pulling WRO's financial backing if he doesn't like what they're doing.

Reeve & WRO: Reeve and the WRO are dealing with a balance of powers, both internally and externally. Internally, Reeve is learning that Shin-Ra's organization (president with different departments) did have a purpose; it made running a company much easier. Unfortunetly, this means that not everybody helping him run the WRO agrees with his meathods. There are several people who would like to have Shin-Ra for its crimes as well as those who think the WRO should have more power over the city governments. Externally, the WRO is economically dependent on Shin-Ra. Rufus has quite a bit of influence on what the WRO is cappable of and he isn't affraid to let Reeve know that. Cloud coming with the news that Sephiroth isn't quite dead yet brings up several problems that need to be dealt with if the WRO is going to stay functional.

Cloud: This time around, it isn't Sephiroth coming back that is bothering Cloud. Instead, it's the feeling that he knows Genesis very well from somewhere and he's sure he never met him before. Regardless, he isn't planning on leaving Tifa this time around.

Will get to more people later....

 

[Roger]

Cloud also passes out twice. And I think people make too much out of characters being "saved" in AC. Everyone is constantly "saving" one another in that Bahamut fight. I think it was how they were depicting teamwork, not demonstrating the strength of certain characters over others.

And you can point to those lines and say Tifa's dependant on Cloud (although she and Barret expressly state how unusual it is for her to behave that way), but howabout the fact that if it weren't for Tifa Cloud would still be drooling in a wheelchair, if not just just flattened in Mideel?

Three times actually, he was out cold when Vincent saved him. Certainly out longer then Tifa.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

i think that EC should be like FFIV:after years, different stories that crossed each other with a final charapter we're everybody meet togheter and go to fight the villain.
for exemple a story can be: Shelke is searching for Shalua, and Vincent go with her because he know how is lose an important person and want to proctet her (and, honestly, he has nothing to do ). during their search they will accidently light on the evil menace of the game (possible Sephiroth return, possible hojo return, new evil organization ecc).
surely genesis will reaper like a good guy, maybe making team with weiss.
every story should be focused on two or three characters, so every character can be explained.
if done well the result will be: more explained character, the fans are happy and SE gain more money.
in AC i think that cloud is more Aerith-centric that Tifa-centric.
and, talking of genesis, i'm the only one who think that he is Prof.Gast' secret son?
i think that should be fun a "WHAT!? my half-sister is a Cetra and our father is a great sciensist???" scene

 

[Unlucky]

Rufus & Turks: By this point, Rufus wants Sephiroth gone and done for and the Planet satisfied. This has more to do with the fact that no long term planning can get done with the threat of the world over his head. Both he and the Turks don't really care how this gets done as long as it gets done. This can go as far as pulling WRO's financial backing if he doesn't like what they're doing.

Apart from that, I can see several organizations (business corporations, etc) coming to rise that may somehow threaten Rufus' power, so he and the Turks take care of them to maintain it.

and, talking of genesis, i'm the only one who think that he is Prof.Gast' secret son?
i think that should be fun a "WHAT!? my half-sister is a Cetra and our father is a great sciensist???" scene

Wasn't it said in Crisis Core that Genesis knows his own parents, and that Shinra even got in contact with them when he went MIA?