Character discussion split from LTD (Narritivium ahoy)

[Splintered]

Kinda ontopic: speaking of people's perceptions, have any of you seen Dissidia's anon meme?

Tifa's getting a lot of wank, although I think that's normal because people in general are going to get the "I WANT MY FAVORITE CHARACTER INIT!" Although I have to say, unlike the "manipulation" argument, this one actually makes sense.

"More women who require the male lead to justify their continued existence = BAD."

But isn't that what Tifa is all about? |: Yeah, she hits stuff, but so does Aerith. Just with a staff.

THIS. Tifa is just a pining, obsessed side-kick chick. I can't believe she made it to Dissidia.

Tifa annoys me in the sense that I feel she could do better for herself. Her entire character is based around Cloud, who I think is shit and hate to bits. WHY WOMAN

Disclaimer: The copy of posts were not meant to rag on the people making the posts, but to illustrate the point of how people see Tifa. It was not meant to offend.

You know, out of all the reasons to dislike Tifa, this is the one I find most legitimate (the idea that Tifa is emotionally dependent on Cloud). Tifa is my favorite character in VII and maybe in all of Final Fantasy, but I did pick up on this replaying the game while I was much older.

That said, I think that context in this matters. Yes there is an issue of female characters having male love interests and the center of their whole purpose, but I think in light of the fact that Tifa lost her family, her home- twice, and had spent years fighting for a cause of revenge that only brought her guilt, that it sort of made sense.

I do think in FFVII she's emotionally dependent on Cloud, but I hate the fact that people can bitch about that when they fail to notice that Cloud is just as emotionally dependent on her. This dependency also changes dramatically in AC/C.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Depending on someone else and being worried about them is a wholly different kettle of fish than being dependent upon them or codependent.
Both Cloud and Tifa need each other to bolster the other when they get down. As Cloud is typically the main character, we usually see him getting Bolstered, but CoT shows the support is mutual, with Cloud encouraging Tifa when she doubts and providing comfort as she mourns.

And Mako, I considered it, but concluded she was simply ignoring all the text anyways, so it was kind of irrelevant.

 

[looneymoon]

I do think in FFVII she's emotionally dependent on Cloud, but I hate the fact that people can bitch about that when they fail to notice that Cloud is just as emotionally dependent on her. This dependency also changes dramatically in AC/C.

I don't have a problem with Tifa being dependant on Cloud. I'd argue that Cloud is far more dependant on her than she is on him. IMO a legitimate concern for her character is that she does not have a strong personal character arc that is independant of Cloud. I mean, she sort of does, but it kind of gets shafted in favour of the C/T plot. So I can understand why people may find her character development disappointing in that regard. But I don't think it has to do with Tifa herself being a dependant person, just a dependant character. At least that's what I think *shrug*

Also note I'm kinda playing the devil's advocate here, but it is true I would have liked to see Tifa deal with issues not linked to Cloud. They were there, but it would have been nice to see them go further with them. Alas, there is only so much space for story/character development in a video game.

 

[Zee]

IMO a legitimate concern for her character is that she does not have a strong personal character arc that is independant of Cloud. I mean, she sort of does, but it kind of gets shafted in favour of the C/T plot.

This. There was that whole part in CoT where they touched on her guilt, her anger, her fears of losing more people, how she deals with grief in general and it's all so interesting OH WAIT CLOUD'S HAVING A TITTY ATTACK

I'm hoping, even with a lackluster plot we get some more Tifa independent from Cloud.

Also this was the best comment ever:

Fuck Vivi? Well fuck you too buddy.

Also lol all those people who were bitching that Aeris/Yuna/Dagger/white Mages needed to stay out of the game. My white mages will fuck your shit up.

 

[Ryushikaze]

White mages do need to stay out of the game. Because the best one isn't going to be in it.

Four chars for one game might be too much.
Even if it is one of the two games which deals with the overriding theme of Dissidia the most.

Garnet or Yuna would be acceptable though.

Addendum: The phrase 'Cloud's having a Titty Attack' puts two very hilarious images into my brain.

 

[Shadowfox]

"So, you do have source citation?"
"This website says it's so."
"But have you read the source material?"
"This website says--"

This happens so much in so many LTDs. When asked to provide sources, Clerith.com's essays are cited, but not FFVII or any other part of the Compilation. Entire passages from Clerith.com's essays are eagerly copy-pasted but asking them to cite from FFVII proper with relevant quotes and excerpts is like pulling teeth. And when their essays are easily shown to be wrong by citing FFVII, the citation itself gets denounced as Cloti lies. If anything from FFVII and the Compilation is brought in as their evidence, it's so heavily filtered by the essay writers that it doesn't even seem to belong in the original story anymore.

No wonder everyone's going round and round. We're debating two different stories.

 

[Vendel]

Considering they're a fucking couple, it only makes sense they'd depend on each other.

Wow, what a surprise.

Fangirls need to get their heads out of their ass.

Quoted for



And another thing regarding Tifa's character. It doesn't quite make sense to me for SE to make one of the two female leads into a shallow, manipulative, delusional, co-dependent bitch/slut/whatever. Then go on to describe her as basically the exact opposite of that.

 

[Splintered]

I don't see Garnet working a battle type game. Especially like Dissidia. I already think that Lightnings cura is a fail move that promotes running away and hiding.

Yuna I see working, but only because she has dress spheres.

But I don't think it has to do with Tifa herself being a dependant person, just a dependant character. At least that's what I think *shrug*

I understand that. Though I still think it works in the context. Tifa gets everything stripped away in the game. Pre FFVII, Tifa is an independent character but she was mostly motivated by Shinra hate. Actually, this could be said about most of the characters in FF. But this is something that everyone in the game needs to break from and does so. It was made clear right before the highwind scene when Cloud tells them to go and find what they are fighting for. Tifa stays with Cloud, mostly because of her devotion but partly to show, she has nothing.

Taken outside of FF, it might seem like a weak stereotypical female love driven character. But taken outside of FF, you could consider Barret only a terrible stereotype of an angry black man. The real part of the character is taken within the story, we do see her struggle with her emotions.

Although I will admit, I agree with you that it would be nice to see a story of Tifa without having Cloud as a main driving force.

This. There was that whole part in CoT where they touched on her guilt, her anger, her fears of losing more people, how she deals with grief in general and it's all so interesting OH WAIT CLOUD'S HAVING A TITTY ATTACK

I disagree with you on CoT here (as I love CoT). I don't believe her relationship derailed her arc, I think it made it better. Tifa does deal with the guilt throughout the story, and especially with Denzel coming it, she gets over it.

What she replaces it is with love of family, and Cloud is part of that family. I thought it was a great way to emphasize the problems she had with Cloud. She wasn't obsessed with him, she was frustrated because she wanted what was best for everyone. Cloud was important to her story, but I don't think it was the main driver.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I used to use that argument. That SE describes her as [blank], but you say [blank], so you must think they are awful writers if what they wanted in their character didn't come across at all and even the opposite in fact.

Mainly on Cali with the clingy stuff. Tiff and I had some good lulz.

 

[Zee]

Garnet has that awesome Tennis racket and her summons act like regular spells half the time. It could work. D: And Aeris? C'mon, this chick as access to like EVERY MATERIA. She's doesn't even have to be a white mage, save for her limits.

w/e i'm a white mage whore okay

What she replaces it is with love of family, and Cloud is part of that family. I thought it was a great way to emphasize the problems she had with Cloud. She wasn't obsessed with him, she was frustrated because she wanted what was best for everyone. Cloud was important to her story, but I don't think it was the main driver.

My problem is Nomura kinda does make Cloud a main driver in Tifa's plot, because he uses her as a window into Cloud's head -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it seems the only thing he can think to do with her character.

I mean a majority of my complaints with the characters stems from the laziness of the writing -- apparently no one cba to think up these characters in situations other than "Cloud is depressed, Sephiroth chases Cloud, Tifa has to support Cloud". They really love shoving the characters into these roles all the time with little variation.

Back to CoT, I don't think she was obsessed with him, nor do I think she as a character dependent on him...but I think her storylines are, and that's a problem. I'd like to know more about Tifa as an individual. Instead of just hearing about how she read newspapers hoping to hear about Cloud or dressing up like a hot cowgirl in the hopes to impress him, I'd like to know more about how she handled being lonely in the town, how she first started her martial arts training, a little tale of how she first teamed up with Barret (in fact, a little pre-Cloud AVALANCHE story would be pretty awesome imo), etc. I mean I know there's not a lot of room for a whole lot of backstory, but something along those lines would be nice.

 

[looneymoon]

I understand that. Though I still think it works in the context. Tifa gets everything stripped away in the game. Pre FFVII, Tifa is an independent character but she was mostly motivated by Shinra hate. Actually, this could be said about most of the characters in FF. But this is something that everyone in the game needs to break from and does so. It was made clear right before the highwind scene when Cloud tells them to go and find what they are fighting for. Tifa stays with Cloud, mostly because of her devotion but partly to show, she has nothing.

Which is why I can't really hate on her for it tbh. WHile the premise of this type of storyline is supremely eyeroll-worthy (at least imo) I think it was executed in a way that made the character, instead of break them. I wouldn't remove that part of her if I had the choice, I just think it'd be cool to see emphasis on aspects of her character that don't have to do with Cloud.

In that sense, I can understand how some people may prefer Aeris' character. Though I do feel bad for comparing them in the first place. I like them both but I think Tifa edges out as the one I like more.

Although I will admit, I agree with you that it would be nice to see a story of Tifa without having Cloud as a main driving force.

Hell yeah it would

 

[Madame Mayor]

I'd like to know more about how she handled being lonely in the town, how she first started her martial arts training, a little tale of how she first teamed up with Barret (in fact, a little pre-Cloud AVALANCHE story would be pretty awesome imo), etc.

Actually, a 'Case of' style novella detailing this would be pretty awesome.

 

[Vendel]

Which is why I can't really hate on her for it tbh. WHile the premise of this type of storyline is supremely eyeroll-worthy (at least imo) I think it was executed in a way that made the character, instead of break them. I wouldn't remove that part of her if I had the choice, I just think it'd be cool to see emphasis on aspects of her character that don't have to do with Cloud.

In that sense, I can understand how some people may prefer Aeris' character.

Yes Aerith. The one who physically inserts herself into Cloud's business because he reminds her of her dead boyfriend.

 

[Zee]

that'll be all, vendel

 

[Splintered]

Yes Aerith. The one who physically inserts herself into Cloud's business because he reminds her of her dead boyfriend.

You're missing the point. It's not "how much of a good person X is' we are arguing. It's the idea that many people get annoyed at the idea of the heroine having her entire character based off of her love interest.

The reason why some people like Aerith more, is that Aerith's character and identity (not her personality) in the game is much more independent of Cloud and her love of Cloud. A large part of her story arc was coming to terms with her destiny, and then being part of the planet.

While I disagree that Tifa's story is completely reliant on Cloud's, it still stands that it is much more than Aerith's, and well, pretty dependent in general.

 

[Vendel]

The reason why some people like Aerith more, is that Aerith's character and identity (not her personality) in the game is much more independent of Cloud and her love of Cloud. A large part of her story arc was coming to terms with her destiny, and then being part of the planet.

While I disagree that Tifa's story is completely reliant on Cloud's, it still stands that it is much more than Aerith's, and well, pretty dependent in general.

So by extension if Tifa had been the one who was murdered and Aerith ended up with Cloud than you would be saying the opposite?

 

[Zee]

D'you think we could split this discussion off or start a character discussion thread? This is actually a pretty interesting topic and I'd hate for it to be buried/forgotten in this thread.

 

[Splintered]

@Vendel What? No.

Aerith happened to die and that is part of who she is in the story, but even before she was dead she had a sort of belated comingofage/ find yourself story in which she explored her spirituality and her fate as an Ancient. Death only made her a demigod afterwards, but she was always self exploring. Cloud was a side story.

Tifa also had her own self exploring but that was overshadowed, or at least ran parallel to her relationship with Cloud. Her insecurities and doubts manifested themselves most directly when trying to confess to Cloud or in her doubts about telling Cloud the truth. I think AC/C and CoT fixed that (a lot of people disagree with me) but it's hard not to see that Tifa's FFVII plot is tied with Cloud, Aerith's FFVII plot is tied with the planet.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't see Garnet working a battle type game. Especially like Dissidia. I already think that Lightnings cura is a fail move that promotes running away and hiding.

Yuna I see working, but only because she has dress spheres.

Summons! Garnet has 'em too.

Garnet has that awesome Tennis racket and her summons act like regular spells half the time. It could work. D: And Aeris? C'mon, this chick as access to like EVERY MATERIA. She's doesn't even have to be a white mage, save for her limits.

Aerith has just as much access to Yuffie, and her limits, her defining features, are combatively support only.
Plus, she's a geomancer, not a white mage.

w/e i'm a white mage whore okay

So join me in the fight to get Rosa in the game.

My problem is Nomura kinda does make Cloud a main driver in Tifa's plot, because he uses her as a window into Cloud's head -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it seems the only thing he can think to do with her character.

I mean a majority of my complaints with the characters stems from the laziness of the writing -- apparently no one cba to think up these characters in situations other than "Cloud is depressed, Sephiroth chases Cloud, Tifa has to support Cloud". They really love shoving the characters into these roles all the time with little variation.

Well, Monopoly, but yeah, retreaded plotthread is retreaded.

Back to CoT, I don't think she was obsessed with him, nor do I think she as a character dependent on him...but I think her storylines are, and that's a problem. I'd like to know more about Tifa as an individual. Instead of just hearing about how she read newspapers hoping to hear about Cloud or dressing up like a hot cowgirl in the hopes to impress him, I'd like to know more about how she handled being lonely in the town, how she first started her martial arts training, a little tale of how she first teamed up with Barret (in fact, a little pre-Cloud AVALANCHE story would be pretty awesome imo), etc. I mean I know there's not a lot of room for a whole lot of backstory, but something along those lines would be nice.

Hey, there's five years worth of things to happen in that gap.See if she worked with the more extreme cells of AVALANCHE at all.

@Vendel What? No.

Aerith happened to die and that is part of who she is in the story, but even before she was dead she had a sort of belated comingofage/ find yourself story in which she explored her spirituality and her fate as an Ancient. Death only made her a demigod afterwards, but she was always self exploring. Cloud was a side story.

Actually, he was a mirror to her story. The romance was the red herring to that. Cloud and Aerith run similar parallel storylines.

Tifa also had her own self exploring but that was overshadowed, or at least ran parallel to her relationship with Cloud. Her insecurities and doubts manifested themselves most directly when trying to confess to Cloud or in her doubts about telling Cloud the truth. I think AC/C and CoT fixed that (a lot of people disagree with me) but it's hard not to see that Tifa's FFVII plot is tied with Cloud, Aerith's FFVII plot is tied with the planet.

They're both tied with Cloud, but one is tied by a concern for Cloud, and the other is tied as a mirror of Cloud's own narrative of doubt, identity searching, and finding oneself.

 

[Celes Chere]

So join me in the fight to get Rosa in the game.

I'm all over that. Rosa can kick anyone's ass. Paired up with Cecil-- start running bitches.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

See, while reading this thread, I was trying to think of important flashbacks in FFVII that we get of Tifa's life that don't involve Cloud, but all of them do, including when she freaks out over her mom's death. In fact, I may be misremembering, but we see that event through Cloud's eyes, when really, I would have liked to know what Tifa was feeling when her mom died.

With Aerith on the other hand, we have many flashbacks to her and her Cetra powers and generally running away from ShinRa.

Now, I totally understand that Cloud and Tifa knew each other as kids, so of course they would probably be in each other's flashbacks frequently, considering how small a village they lived in and all. But I still feel like there were quite a few opportunities that were missed to show Tifa outside of Cloud and how much she liked him. I mean, heck, her training with Zangen would have shown strength and determination that wasn't related to Cloud. I really do like Tifa, which is why I feel like some of the time, the original game really missed the mark on making her something outside of 'Cloud's childhood friend/love interest'.

 

[Sigbru]

I remember some minor scenes with Tifa doing things unrelated to Cloud.

Zagan's letter to Tifa (which I think was supposed to be a bigger sidequest)
The whole Don Corneo plot when Tifa thinks Cloud's dead and acts only on the behalf of AVALANCHE
At Costa del Sol she spends most of her time there chatting with Johnny
And she hangs out with Aerith a lot, through the game

Nothing much memorable I guess, but at least they tried

 

[Splintered]

Still not hugely fond of white mages in Dissidia. I happen to enjoy mah black mages (Vivi, Lulu) but I couldn't imagine them in Dissidia.

They're both tied with Cloud, but one is tied by a concern for Cloud, and the other is tied as a mirror of Cloud's own narrative of doubt, identity searching, and finding oneself.

I agree that Aerith's did sort of mirror Cloud's, but I always thought Cloud's own search for self was more like Sephiroth's original one, ie. peverse.

Like.. Cloud's was purely and identity crisis while Aerith was much more like a coming of age. They are similar but identity crisis I felt was based on lies and coming to terms with the kind of guy he really is. Aerith's was more like an awakening, coming to terms what what she really is, and the responsibilities and spirituality that comes with it.

Sephiroth's was like Cloud's in the fact that it was an identity crisis based on lies. It sort of also looks like Aerith's in that he was coming to terms with "what he really is" but we learn later that what he thought he was was also a lie.

So while it is a mirror of Aerith's, it's also the exact opposite. Their development is foils of each other. That and Aerith and her return to her ancient roots is still somewhat dependent of Cloud. Those developments would have happened as long as she had someone to follow on the journey.

The romance was the red herring to that.

The romance was a red herring, but her love was not. Her death effectively ended any potential romance, but she continued to love him at least up until CoL.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Still not hugely fond of white mages in Dissidia. I happen to enjoy mah black mages (Vivi, Lulu) but I couldn't imagine them in Dissidia.

I'm fairly confident my Rosa concept is more than playable, but I could not say the same for any other non summoner white mage.

I agree that Aerith's did sort of mirror Cloud's, but I always thought Cloud's own search for self was more like Sephiroth's original one, ie. peverse.

Like.. Cloud's was purely and identity crisis while Aerith was much more like a coming of age. They are similar but identity crisis I felt was based on lies and coming to terms with the kind of guy he really is. Aerith's was more like an awakening, coming to terms what what she really is, and the responsibilities and spirituality that comes with it.

Sephiroth's was like Cloud's in the fact that it was an identity crisis based on lies. It sort of also looks like Aerith's in that he was coming to terms with "what he really is" but we learn later that what he thought he was was also a lie.

So while it is a mirror of Aerith's, it's also the exact opposite. Their development is foils of each other. That and Aerith and her return to her ancient roots is still somewhat dependent of Cloud. Those developments would have happened as long as she had someone to follow on the journey.

All of this is entirely true, and what I was driving at. Mirrors in the sense of 'identical opposites' Aerith discovering who she is, Cloud discovering he isn't who he thought, etc.
You're right about also being like Sephiroth's in the perverse sense.
FF7 is very big on 'How the truth or what you think it is affects you as a character.'

The romance was a red herring, but her love was not. Her death effectively ended any potential romance, but she continued to love him at least up until CoL.

I speak narratively when I call the romance a red herring. I don't doubt Aerith's affections, though I do sometimes wonder at her thought process.

 

[Zee]

I remember some minor scenes with Tifa doing things unrelated to Cloud.

Zagan's letter to Tifa (which I think was supposed to be a bigger sidequest)
The whole Don Corneo plot when Tifa thinks Cloud's dead and acts only on the behalf of AVALANCHE
At Costa del Sol she spends most of her time there chatting with Johnny
And she hangs out with Aerith a lot, through the game

Nothing much memorable I guess, but at least they tried

They do have some moments (although I don't know if I'd really count the chatting scenes...) -- the biggest probably being when Tifa leads Avalanche in Cloud's absence -- but it's so short lived. I mean, I know I know, making sure Cloud isn't dead is a pretty high priority, but there was the potential for a lot of interesting development there. I mean, no one questioned her leadership, they just knew she would lead. I'd have liked to see her own style of leading the team for a bit.

That kinda leads me further into the idea of her in Avalanche before Cloud -- I always kinda thought she was like Barret's right hand woman (if not sharing the lead role outright), so to have her back in that role and maybe some implications of her skills in Avalanche would have been cool.

In a way it's just frustrating because there's so much more to do with Tifa, to give her this complete story arc and really flesh out her character, and we get glimpses and hints but then it never seems to follow up.

Remember that rumor about the FF7 sequel starring Tifa? That would have been awesome. D: