Character discussion split from LTD (Narritivium ahoy)

[Dana Scully]

I only wish Square had shown us Tifa from the time Cloud left Nibelheim to the time she found him again in Midgar.

You know, that part when she became a terrorist.

I want to see her go from relatively innocent country girl to tour guide to hate-filled after the Nibelheim incident to running a shitty bar in a shittier slum to blowing up reactors and potentially innocent people all the while being a sort-of mother figure to Marlene and still being genuinely compassionate towards other people.

I appreciate that Cloud is a huge, important factor in Tifa's life, but there were times when there simply was no Cloud and I really think some exposition on that time would add so much to what is really an underdeveloped character.

 

[ForceStealer]

They may not SHOW it. But they clearly reference Tifa's strength and leadership in Cloud's absence. As mentioned, she did immediately become the leader after Cloud's departure, and no one did question it at all. That's a good point Smugleaf, I never thought about that before. The Corneo thing was another astute observation, Sigbru.
But in that same part of the story, when Tifa is depressed about Cloud being gone, and Barret becomes annoyed with her, he describes exactly who we're talking about. "Where's that tough girl I used to know?" And that she got along just fine without Cloud before.
Also, in DC, she seems to be the one leading the ground forces. (Tells Cloud when to disembark, Barret when to fire, etc.)

So there are some missed opportunities, and Tifa's original purpose WAS to offer a more objective window to Cloud's psyche. But they have at least made it very clear that she isn't actually attached at the hip to him, she just serves that purpose when the story centers around him - which it often does.

 

[looneymoon]

They may not SHOW it. But they clearly reference Tifa's strength and leadership in Cloud's absence. As mentioned, she did immediately become the leader after Cloud's departure, and no one did question it at all. That's a good point Smugleaf, I never thought about that before.

I find that a lot of the time in stories, I tend to resent being told things rather than being shown them. Especially when it comes to character development. Especially when it's for a main character.

Imagine if we never had that section of the game where Barret sorts out his past/faces Dyne. I mean, he would still be the same character, but he would be much less independant from his daughter. Which isn't really a bad thing, it would just make his arc rather flat you know?

Zagan's letter to Tifa (which I think was supposed to be a bigger sidequest)

fdsshh something like THIS would have been awesome D:

Also, just want to reaffirm that I don't think Tifa (as a person) really needs Cloud. IMO, Cloud needs Tifa way more than she needs him around. The problem is that when it comes to storylines, the writers tend to use Tifa merely as a device to facilitate Cloud's story. Often at the expense of her having her own story.

 

[Splintered]

I want to see her go from relatively innocent country girl to tour guide to hate-filled after the Nibelheim incident to running a shitty bar in a shittier slum to blowing up reactors and potentially innocent people all the while being a sort-of mother figure to Marlene and still being genuinely compassionate towards other people.

You know, I always found the idea of Tifa's main drive being hate something odd. I mean, she has to have a lot of anger and hate to become an ecoterrorist, but I never felt it consumed her life the way it did Barret's. Other than the moment she snaps and tries to kill Sephiroth, she's always been calm- even when she displayed disgust towards Shinra.

I always felt that the reason why she became a part of Avalanche was not because she was consumed with revenge, it was because she had nothing to live for but revenge. Barret (I use him a lot as a point in comparison), for example, had Marlene, but he couldn't shake his hate. Tifa didn't have anything, except for modest relationships with her other crew. Thus revenge became the biggest part of her life.

Which is why when Cloud came back, it became a central part of her character. Because she did have something to live for and fight for other than sticking it to Shinra. When he enters the story, she once again loses everything, but then gains everything. I think this shift is important, not just to her, but to everyone. Barret admits that he was originally in Avalanche only to get revenge, but now it's to fight for Marlene, and it's the same thing for Tifa. This is why she decides to stay with Cloud when he gets sick. This is why Barret is so confused and asks what happened to that "strong girl" she use to be before Cloud. Because when he left again, she didn't have that one thing anymore.

That does imply a strong amount of emotional dependency, but it's a legitimate one and one that I felt was done well enough that it wasn't too stereotypical of a girlmusthaveguytolive.

And, like I said, CoT and AC/C helped a lot, by expanding her family and having her own independence. It would nice to see it in action outside of Cloud.

 

[ForceStealer]

I find that a lot of the time in stories, I tend to resent being told things rather than being shown them. Especially when it comes to character development. Especially when it's for a main character.

I get what you're saying, but then we get into that "spelling everything out for you" vs. "implying stuff" debate. I think her immediately taking the lead in Cloud's absence was them "showing" it to an extent. In fact, not the fact that she takes the lead, but that the rest of the party immediately accepts. They had to rescue her, but once she was there she was in command.
That said, would I like to see what she was like between Nibelheim and FF7? Absolutely.

Also, I know I can never give Barret enough praise, but I love his relationship with Tifa. It's unlike any of the other relationships in the game. They're part equals, part father/daughter, part siblings. It's really well done, imo. And I like the part when he gets annoyed with her on the Highwind for displaying that...whatever that is (trichotomy?).

 

[Vendel]

With Aerith on the other hand, we have many flashbacks to her and her Cetra powers and generally running away from ShinRa.

Many? Other than the one where we see her mothers death what flashbacks are there?

 

[looneymoon]

I get what you're saying, but then we get into that "spelling everything out for you" vs. "implying stuff" debate. I think her immediately taking the lead in Cloud's absence was them "showing" it to an extent. In fact, not the fact that she takes the lead, but that the rest of the party immediately accepts. They had to rescue her, but once she was there she was in command.
That said, would I like to see what she was like between Nibelheim and FF7? Absolutely.

But it's not so much spelling everything out as much as... giving her a story line that's not completely tied down to Cloud/anyone else. Her taking over the party is an example of her acting like the bamf she is, but it's not a full-fledged character arc in the same way say Barret's Corel/Dyne quest is. I'm not saying she's not a strong character, because she clearly is and Square demonstrates that very well. I'm saying, give her her OWN storyline.

Also, I know I can never give Barret enough praise, but I love his relationship with Tifa. It's unlike any of the other relationships in the game. They're part equals, part father/daughter, part siblings. It's really well done, imo. And I like the part when he gets annoyed with her on the Highwind for displaying that...whatever that is (trichotomy?).

IAWTC SFM.

@Splintered: I agree with everything you just said. I just think that these parts where she's overcoming her own personal issues could have had bigger emphasis. As is, those things seemed to get really overlooked. I mean she can easily have a really awesome character arc, but she's pretty much shafted as a plot device to Cloud's journey. Mind you she is a device of HUGE importance, but that doesn't mean she can't have her own little side story or something.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Many? Other than the one where we see her mothers death what flashbacks are there?

uh, her talking to Elmyra about her husband's death and her yelling at Tseng and the Shinra guys, which are technically different flashbacks since they take place at different times. but it's okay vendel, i know you hate aerith because she killed your puppy. i understand.

also can you name a tifa flashback that didn't directly involve or revolve around Cloud? Didn't think so.

 

[Vendel]

uh, her talking to Elmyra about her husband's death and her yelling at Tseng and the Shinra guys, which are technically different flashbacks since they take place at different times. but it's okay vendel, i know you hate aerith because she killed your puppy. i understand.

Well excuse the fuck out of me for not remembering off the top of my head the mini flashbacks that take place in the same conversation and in the very same location where you are at. Rather than the one that takes place at a fucking train station.

And we only know those because CLOUD was being told. So everything is filtered through him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No, but a bit part of that is because there are only two flashbacks that take place between the Nibleheim Incident and Tifa finding Cloud at the station in the entire game. One is Barret's, the other's is Cid's.
Plus, even if she did have them, we'd learn Cloud was there anyways, somehow. As a white kitten, perhaps.

I find Barret's omission of flashbacks about their time as terrorists just as strange as Tifa's. Stranger, even, since he's psychologically tied into that time even more than Tifa is.

Tifa found her way out to Normalcy, but Barret is still looking.

CoB would have done very well with a few 'Nam style Flashbacks to bombing raids and the like.
CoT too, when she talks about her guilt and making things better with what she's doing now. Good contrast.

 

[ForceStealer]

IAWTC SFM.

Sorry but...what's that mean?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

CoB would have done very well with a few 'Nam style Flashbacks to bombing raids and the like.
CoT too, when she talks about her guilt and making things better with what she's doing now. Good contrast.

I completely gained the impression, from the game, that the bombing of reactor number one, with Cloud, is the very first bombing AVALANCHE undertakes. I mean, Midgar is otherwise intact, isn't it? And if you want to bring the Compilation into the picture (which many don't), there is no mention of any other major terrorist incidents in BC, nothing that we could assume had been done by Barret's AVALANCHE. So maybe there just isn't anything to flash back to, aside from what we see in the game.

 

[Zee]

Sorry but...what's that mean?

I agree with this comment so fucking much.

 

[ForceStealer]

Ah...yeah I never would have come up with that

 

[Zee]

Ah...yeah I never would have come up with that

It's cool. It took me AGES to figure out what iawtc and hbic stood for.

I completely gained the impression, from the game, that the bombing of reactor number one, with Cloud, is the very first bombing AVALANCHE undertakes. I mean, Midgar is otherwise intact, isn't it? And if you want to bring the Compilation into the picture (which many don't), there is no mention of any other major terrorist incidents in BC, nothing that we could assume had been done by Barret's AVALANCHE. So maybe there just isn't anything to flash back to, aside from what we see in the game.

Well, prior to those (shudder) prequels, when Barret, Tifa & co. were the only known Avalanche members, they were already pretty notorious. I'd have to replay the opening again, but when they go into the reactor it seems like this is something they've done before.

I have to replay it because I can't remember these parts offhand, but wasn't a part of their public execution because they had caused so much shit? And didn't Shinra blame them for the fallen plate in Sector 7, because they were always blowing stuff up anyway?

Also I need to stop abusing the thank button in this thread, but everyone has such good posts.

 

[Sigbru]

Well, prior to those (shudder) prequels, when Barret, Tifa & co. were the only known Avalanche members, they were already pretty notorious. I'd have to replay the opening again, but when they go into the reactor it seems like this is something they've done before.

I think they were just spreading gossip or so, I think Jessie says she didn't even know how to make a bomb right


Question: How long was Tifa in AVALANCHE before she found Cloud? I don't remember anything about how she and Barret meet

 

[Ryushikaze]

I completely gained the impression, from the game, that the bombing of reactor number one, with Cloud, is the very first bombing AVALANCHE undertakes. I mean, Midgar is otherwise intact, isn't it? And if you want to bring the Compilation into the picture (which many don't), there is no mention of any other major terrorist incidents in BC, nothing that we could assume had been done by Barret's AVALANCHE. So maybe there just isn't anything to flash back to, aside from what we see in the game.

Reactor bombing, sure, but they might have made other attacks on ShinRa facilities, destroying equipment and supplies lines and the like.
They hadda be doing something in the intervening years.

It's cool. It took me AGES to figure out what iawtc and hbic stood for.

Well, prior to those (shudder) prequels, when Barret, Tifa & co. were the only known Avalanche members, they were already pretty notorious. I'd have to replay the opening again, but when they go into the reactor it seems like this is something they've done before.

I have to replay it because I can't remember these parts offhand, but wasn't a part of their public execution because they had caused so much shit? And didn't Shinra blame them for the fallen plate in Sector 7, because they were always blowing stuff up anyway?

Also I need to stop abusing the thank button in this thread, but everyone has such good posts.

They were blamed for the Sec 7 plate drop because it could be pinned on them, yes. And people did believe it, so word of AVALANCHE's deeds must have gotten out at some point.

I think they were just spreading gossip or so, I think Jessie says she didn't even know how to make a bomb right

She made the bomb to the wrong size. She made it too strong, not 'incorrectly.'

Question: How long was Tifa in AVALANCHE before she found Cloud? I don't remember anything about how she and Barret meet

The specifics are not known, but IIRC, she met him when/ after she became tender of the 7th heaven, not before.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's cool. It took me AGES to figure out what iawtc and hbic stood for.



Well, prior to those (shudder) prequels, when Barret, Tifa & co. were the only known Avalanche members, they were already pretty notorious. I'd have to replay the opening again, but when they go into the reactor it seems like this is something they've done before.

I have to replay it because I can't remember these parts offhand, but wasn't a part of their public execution because they had caused so much shit? And didn't Shinra blame them for the fallen plate in Sector 7, because they were always blowing stuff up anyway?

Also I need to stop abusing the thank button in this thread, but everyone has such good posts.

My apologies in advance if I'm telling you something you already know, but...

Barret borrowed the name AVALANCHE from an earlier terrorist organisation (the antagonists of B.C.) who did cause quite a lot of damage to Shinra, though they never blew up a reactor in Midgar. The name inspires a lot of terror in the average Midgardian, though not because of anything that Barret and his team are on record as having done.

And Barret is not stupid, whatever people may think, so of course he and his team would have done a few trial runs and learnt the layout of the reactor, the train timetables, etc... before they launched their attack for real.

Rufus didn't need to justify his decision to publicly execute Tifa and Barret by reference to anything they'd actually done. His only rationale was the need to give the public somebody to blame (other than Shinra). Everything was going to pinned on them - including the Weapons and Meteor, I think - whether they were responsible for it or not. Scapegoating, in other words.

 

[Zee]

Herein lies the main problem with Compilation retconning, man.

There's no reason to think Barret and his team haven't done this before. iirc news of the bombing is playing at their base and they're all just sitting there chewing popcorn. You'd think if it was their first time doing this, there'd be a line of dialogue from one of the team about "Ah, I'm so nervous, our first time doing this!" or in the aftermath "My god what did we just do?" Instead, they are merely introducing Cloud to a routine they seem to have been familiar with. All of them seem to know their way around the reactor base like the back of their hand. That says to me a little more than careful planning.

It also says a lot that the public was so willing to accept Avalanche did something of this scale -- they would have first had to build a reputation of "people who blow up a lotta shit and leave casualties" for everyone to completely trust these people would, in fact, blow up a lotta shit and leave casualties. Yeah, Shinra needed someone to blame, but it's not like there wasn't a basis for the accusation in the first place to make it believable.

ALSO I just remembered doesn't Reeve/Cait Sith pretty much call them all out for their bombings saying how many people's lives were lost because of them?

 

[Ite]

Based on the posters around Midgar, we can assume that AVALANCHE was at least talking a big game. I think the North Reactor bombing was their first huge deal, though.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But what else in Midgar has been destroyed? No other reactors, that's certain.

Smugleaf, you are right when you say there's no reason to think Barret and his team haven't done this before, but there's equally no evidence, verbal or physical, directly proving that they have. And since the entire argument depends on whether or not one accepts the Compilation, which you don't seem to, this discussion is kind of pointless.

 

[Zee]

There more evidence implying they have then they haven't, though. Then again I don't really think anyone would say, "Gee, this is our [xth] bombing this month GREAT JOB GUYS," because...people just don't talk that way. However, a comment for the very first bombing job they went on would be more appropriate. Yet they have none.

Plus, coming back around to Tifa, I'd like to think the girl would have more of an emotional reaction to killing tons of civilians in the blast. I'd actually picture her pretty reluctant for her first time doing this -- instead she's just all, "Yeah, I'm heading out too GO TEAM!"

 

[Splintered]

Jessie did seem pretty impressed that her bomb "did all that." So it may as well be their first bombing, but not necessarily their first act as Avalanche. If it was, that was a pretty extreme act that Shirna did, destroying an entire sector just to get rid of Avalanche, even with to regards of Avalanche being so active prior to the events of FFVII.

I also got the general feeling that most of the slums seems pretty well acquainted with at least the concept of Avalanche. Even kids seem to know who they are.

 

[ForceStealer]

In regards to Jessie's bomb, the 1st reactor explosion was obviously a mistake. Not only was the Sector 5's explosion much more subdued, it is NEVER mentioned again for the rest of the game. People only ever talk about No. 1 having casualties, as does Cait Sith.

And Smugleaf, I'm not exactly sure where Compilation retconning comes in on your post. What retcon are you referring to?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think she's talking about other AVALANCHE, though I don't think the existence of that group really infringes on Barret's cell and what they've done.

On the bomb issue again, it could easily be their 37th Bomb mission and Jessie could have screwed up the ratios due to this being their first Really Big Target and caused the Reactor to shed parts into the surrounding area.