Character discussion split from LTD (Narritivium ahoy)

[Splintered]

Which is exactly why I wish SE would think/have thought of giving gamers additional insight into both Fang and Tifa in their respective games, on their own, not dependent on other characters. What a waste. And they could have/could do so!

Me too. I love Tifa's character, I love Fang's character, I love the dynamic between Tifa-Cloud and Fang-Vanille. Dependency doesn't make them bad characters, but that doesn't mean it would be nice to see the characters break out of their dependency for a arc or something.

But if we are going to be fair, we should acknowledge other forms of this. Character dependency is not new to Tifa. Nor is it new to any story. The reason why people bring it up is precisely because it is a stereotype and therefore, we know it happens a lot through literature and other mediums of story telling.

I think why people are more likely to target Tifa (besides the obvious LTD element exasperating the whole situation of trying to pick apart flaws) is that she IS a strong character and she IS a main heroine, not a support throw away like Amarant was.

That and, this is my own opinion, but I've seen a lot of push by female gamers for stronger, more independent females in their games, and Tifa is a high profile female character. I definitely got this "we want more" vibe while on lj. I always kind felt at odds with this, not because I don't want strong, independent wimmenz, that would be awesome, but because I always felt satisfied for the most part, and I always felt that rather filling a quota on how an X character should be Y, they should focus on making a great character- flaws and all. But... where was I again?

Oh yeah Tifa<3.

Honestly all these characters are shallow. Every single one of them HAS to be linked with either Shinra or Jenova somehow. C'mon people Show a little independence.

I never felt this way. Maybe it's me and my love for FFVII that is overrating it, but I felt the characters and story were always so solid. I didn't feel any of the characters were extremely shallow. Save for Vincent but he got a story upgrade so.

 

[minimosey]

I get that Vincent is an optional character and Cait Sith is definitely a supporting character while Tifa's a main, but they're all significant to the story.

But...Vincent is not significant to the original game's story. That's why he's an optional character. The only way he's significant is that he reveals interesting background info about Sephiroth that could have been revealed a different way--ranting from Hojo, a hidden document on Sephiroth's creation. I just don't see how the "but" changes the first part: just because a character plays a role in the plot doesn't mean they have the same significance.

but that doesn't mean it would be nice to see the characters break out of their dependency for a arc or something.

I'm looking forward to what they do with Tifa in Dissidia. I'm sure her story will be tied to Cloud's again, but she'll still probably be on her own for parts, I bet. I think I pretty much agree though--it'd be really nice to see Tifa on her own for a story, but when you look at her story over her life it IS a solid one. She's not a bad character, they just haven't focused on her on her own much.

 

[Splintered]

I'm looking forward to what they do with Tifa in Dissidia. I'm sure her story will be tied to Cloud's again, but she'll still probably be on her own for parts, I bet. I think I pretty much agree though--it'd be really nice to see Tifa on her own for a story, but when you look at her story over her life it IS a solid one. She's not a bad character, they just haven't focused on her on her own much.

Anyone looking for some deep character progression in Dissidia, imo, is going to be disappointed.

Or is it just me? It can't be just me who thought all the characters were so fucking archetyped and shallow that I almost was embarrassed by the whole thing, if it wasn't hilarious. I don't particularly blame lazy writing as I look down on fighting game stories in general. Tifa's going to be tied to Cloud because that's such a strong part of her character, and we probably aren't going to see much deviation from it.

If we honestly were hurting for more dynamic story telling, ask for more novels, because Dissidia isn't going to satisfy anything but our base needs for a fun game and fanservice (neither of which I object to. Because I am shallow. )

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think looking forward to character interactions in Dissidia is anticipation for a deep story. You said it yourself, its a fighting game. I wasn't miffed at Dissidia 1's simply story for that very reason. The only thing you're really looking for is for how all these characters would actually interact, even if its simple. And references to their host games, which were plentiful. But little things like Cloud being one of the leaders among heroes, the Emperor running a conspiracy among the villains, Kefka making a a mockery of...everyone, that's what one should go in looking for.

Could they have done more with it? I guess so, but...have you ever played Soul Calibur?

 

[minimosey]

Yeah, I'm not looking for deep character progression. I just want to see her doing stuff and interacting with other characters without Cloud there. I didn't play the first Dissidia but I read the script, so I know roughly what to expect. Though looking again, I can see how my previous post was misleading.

 

[Roger]

Eh...I mean I see what you all are saying...I've just never felt like I was being cheated out of Tifa airtime (or Fang). We know everything that has happened to her over her entire life, just about, how much more can they tell us?

And I would say Cloud is MORE dependent on other characters than she is. I agree with Tres about how attached his story is to hers, and any time any point of development ISN'T tied to her, its tied to Sephiroth.

And run by me again why we're not counting Case of Tifa? It's not the original game...okay. Well the original game is not going to magically change because we bitch, she DID get introspection in the Compilation - and in one of its better entries at that.

Can't say I agree with this. I really don't see Cloud stopping being Cloud if he doesn't have Sephiroth to fret over as much as Tifa would stop being Tifa if she didn't have Cloud to fret over.
For instance in ACC Whether you take out scenes with Tifa, Rufus, Kadaj, Zack, Denzel, Marlene Vincent or (or not and, mind you) Sephiroth, Cloud would still look like a character with development.

 

[ForceStealer]

I dunno, apparently if Cloud doesn't have Sephiroth to fret about he latches on to fretting about Aeris and Zack.

 

[Roger]

I dunno, apparently if Cloud doesn't have Sephiroth to fret about he latches on to fretting about Aeris and Zack.

In the Compilation Zack is higher up on that list then Tifa, Aeris and Sephiroth put together.

 

[looneymoon]

It was all about Lucrecia though. His revenge for Lucrecia. He looked for Sephiroth for Lucrecia. He angsts about Lucrecia, he fought for Lucrecia, he hated Hojo because of Lucrecia. He got his limit breaks from Lucrecia. He wanted revenge for Hojo, but Tifa wanted revenge on Sephiroth too. Doesn't mean it made her character independent, each character had something that broke apart from their character dependency. But as whole, they didn't change.

Fuelling the arc, but ultimately the arc was a personal one. Conversely, Tifa doesn't really deal with any latent issues in the same way. She's just sorta there to facilitate Cloud's development.

I mean, we could have gotten more introspection on her insecurity of not being to tell Cloud about his past. Then we could maybe have an interesting conflict where she's essentially stuck between and rock and a hard place. Of course, the way the story is laid out this would be impossible without revealing too much of the plot twist.

But like I said, hurdur Amarant and Freya- being the two most easily ignorable characters in IX. Shame because Freya could have been cool. Amarant is just a failure *hates Amarant*

I liked Freya D: but THANK YOU I seriously cannot stand Amarant fff.

Fang is as dependent, if not more so, than Tifa. There was reciprocity especially towards the end, but Vanille got to experience strong development without her through her guilt and through Sazh. Fang never did. She was just so well done as a character nobody bothered to point it out. The same thing happened with Tifa.

I'd say Fang is more dependent. Also not saying they aren't well done characters, I love Fang and Tifa. They were well executed. I don't really see the harm in pointing out there could have been more to [X] character than what was shown.

and because HERP this all kinda branched out of the LTD what I was sorta trying to get at is how I can see how someone would prefer Aeris' arc to Tifa's. Especially if you don't really care about the romance subplot of the game. Perhaps by examining the preference, perhaps I could justify some of the more crazy ideas on that camp, and why (besides the shipper mindset) they want the story to be more like so (particularly I was thinking of the Highwind "rejection" theory and why some fans may find this appealing). So yeah, I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate in a sense.

And run by me again why we're not counting Case of Tifa? It's not the original game...okay. Well the original game is not going to magically change because we bitch, she DID get introspection in the Compilation - and in one of its better entries at that.

Because sometimes I like to talk about the game as a standalone Though I admit that is one of the areas the Compilation did do right (or tried to do right at least - my opinion of CoT ranges from 'meh' to 'loves it' depending on my mood).

Though I think we can have a whole different discussion measuring the merit/failings of CoT. Since I never really paid the novels much mind other than for the sake of sequential events in the storyline.

Me too. I love Tifa's character, I love Fang's character, I love the dynamic between Tifa-Cloud and Fang-Vanille. Dependency doesn't make them bad characters, but that doesn't mean it would be nice to see the characters break out of their dependency for a arc or something.

Exactly what I'm trying to say D:

But if we are going to be fair, we should acknowledge other forms of this. Character dependency is not new to Tifa. Nor is it new to any story. The reason why people bring it up is precisely because it is a stereotype and therefore, we know it happens a lot through literature and other mediums of story telling.

Well to be fair, I don't really think these things are raised against Tifa often because she's such a well-loved character. I think it's a fair critique to her story. I mean, I have favourite characters but I know no story can be executed perfectly (though it can be done extremely well). Sometimes it's just nice to point out the things you think that could have been better rather than squee over what you like all the time. Otherwise fandom would just be a giant circlejerk which is kinda lame imo

 

[Vendel]

I never felt this way. Maybe it's me and my love for FFVII that is overrating it, but I felt the characters and story were always so solid. I didn't feel any of the characters were extremely shallow. Save for Vincent but he got a story upgrade so.

That was my commentary on this thread. Not on the characters in the game.

and because HERP this all kinda branched out of the LTD what I was sorta trying to get at is how I can see how someone would prefer Aeris' arc to Tifa's. Especially if you don't really care about the romance subplot of the game. Perhaps by examining the preference, perhaps I could justify some of the more crazy ideas on that camp, and why (besides the shipper mindset) they want the story to be more like so (particularly I was thinking of the Highwind "rejection" theory and why some fans may find this appealing). So yeah, I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate in a sense.

Well if you are looking at it from a Clerith shippers POV than Tifa barely has any significance to the story at all. Because Aerith is a Cetra AND she gets Cloud's love. Not only that Cloud is constantly chasing her. While Tifa is hopelessly chasing Cloud. Tifa on the other hand is basically there to confirm Cloud's painful memories of his past. And that is it. AND LEAST WE FORGET. Tifa is so concerned about Cloud because he is majorly fucked up for a good chunk of the game. Unless you are a hardcore Cleirth shipper. Than Cloud was mostly himself.

Not exactly the best lens to look at Tifa through.

And I am not sure what exactly you people wanted from Tifa in the game. Was she just supposed to say "Fuck all this Cloud and Shinra bullshit I'm gonna go wangst on my own about something"?

Cloud is the character that pretty much the entire game is filtered through. People talk about character arcs. But the only reason we know about them is because Cloud was there or was told about shit.

The shit Tifa was doing for those 5 years is not really important to the plot. And her personal character growth is played out elsewhere. The other characters arcs? They are not really needed to move the plot along either (except Aerith's). But without we would know jack squat about them.




I don't know. I just find it kind of funny that Aerith gets a pass for chasing after the shadow of her dead boyfriend. While Tifa who has real reasons to worry about and stick to Cloud gets called out for having no independence.

 

[Splintered]

Fuelling the arc, but ultimately the arc was a personal one. Conversely, Tifa doesn't really deal with any latent issues in the same way. She's just sorta there to facilitate Cloud's development.

I suppose it's just the way we interpret Vincent's character because I never was able to separate Vicent's character from Lucrecia. It was a personal journey, but well, so was Tifa's. It led him down a sort of dramatic path but it was always directly influenced by Lucrecia.

Cloud is the character that pretty much the entire game is filtered through. People talk about character arcs. But the only reason we know about them is because Cloud was there or was told about shit.

Just because someone is a main character doesn't make everyone dependent on Cloud. Just because we see it from one perspective doesn't make them valid. I don't see how having Cloud as the main character makes the argument, "I would like to see a Tifa story that doesn't revolve around Cloud and his troubles" invalid.

We know things get filtered through Cloud. Yet not everything about a character revolves around him. Except for Tifa's story.

I don't know. I just find it kind of funny that Aerith gets a pass for chasing after the shadow of her dead boyfriend. While Tifa who has real reasons to worry about and stick to Cloud gets called out for having no independence.

Because Aerith's story is largely a coming of age story and her blossoming into an Ancient, not her relationship with Cloud OR Zack. Because, despite some loose comparisons that are bound to happen such as the above, this isn't a Tifa versus Aerith war. This is a narrative discussion about a character's story and how it is presented throughout the game. Because we aren't talking about romance in general. Or even actual independence, we are talking about core development and what it centers on. Because this is a valid interpretation of Tifa's character and it's worth discussing.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think ignoring Zack as a core part of Aerith's character, even if a later addition to the plot, is a generally poor move. The man has a major effect on her character, and lingering sentiment of him definitely influences her during FF7 too. Granted, her story is about having to force all that away, whereas Tifa (and Cloud's story, as well) are about keeping people close.

Really, the criticisms about Tifa's characterization should more correctly be levelled at her lack of focus in the backstory between Nibelheim and 7 or her unique story. Nothing about her Characterization is anything that should be classified as 'bad', except if you're really determined to see any instance of caring for people as weakness.

Granted, the story has written the chance for future independent adventures into a corner, though I could see a short set past CoD where she goes of on her own to try and find Zangan before he dies working well.
Have Cloud staying behind with the kids in a throwaway scene where Marlene complains about his cooking, etc, but focus on Tifa, her experiences training with Zangan, her time between Nibel and FF7, just a straight of Focus on Tifa and her history, not Tifa and the family.

 

[minimosey]

I don't know. I just find it kind of funny that Aerith gets a pass for chasing after the shadow of her dead boyfriend. While Tifa who has real reasons to worry about and stick to Cloud gets called out for having no independence.

It's Tifa's storyline that doesn't have independence, but even so--I don't think it's so much Aerith getting a "pass" as that her chasing after Zack's shadow naturally fits in with FFVII's motif of loss and everyone having inappropriate ways of dealing with it.

Cloud loses everything at one point, including his freedom and control over his own body. He reassembles his head to deal with it.
Tifa loses everything at one point. She takes up terrorism, which causes other people to lose everything!
Barret loses everything but his best friend's daughter. Ditto on the terrorism.
Cid loses his dream. He becomes a bitter, trash-talking jerk.
Vincent shut himself in a box for 30 years.

We have a bunch of signs that Zack was very important to Aerith (running out of his parents' house in Gongaga out of upset, her saying that only a few people in the world really know her, the whole thing with Cloud), and even in the original game, Elmyra's story revealing that Aerith could sense the deaths of people pointed to the conclusion that she had heard when Zack had died. Which was rather recent. Her reaction (trying to trivialize his importance, initially following Cloud for the resemblance) fits right in with the whole "inappropriate coping with loss" theme. She straightens herself back out about as quickly as anyone else does, if not quicker.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not sure those are all 'innapropriate' given Tifa and Barret had pretty much lost everything and had no other recourse. Extreme reactions, sure, but given what they'd gone through, each makes sense.

 

[Roger]

Zack was her boyfriend, he most definitely wasn't her everything. Tifa's entire life at Nibelheim was completely destroyed along with her family and, as far as she knew Cloud. Ditto Cloud along with his heroworship Sephiroth shattered to pieces and you know his entire conciousness. Barret much the same, and it was his fault as well. Cid's dream most definitely meant everything to him. Aerith finding out that her boyfriend died five years after her last contact with him and picking herself up better then any of the above isn't something to wonder at.

 

[minimosey]

I could go with "extreme" over inappropriate, yeah. I was thinking about it earlier but couldn't really think of how to rephrase it. I don't think the course everyone took was wrong in a "they should have known better" way. (...Maybe Cid, though.) I mean, for Cloud, too--how do you deal with that any other way? He rags on himself for it, but realistically just about anyone would have broken by that point. He didn't even know Tifa was alive until she found him at the train station; he says in his recounting of Nibelheim that he thought she was a goner. So when you've been told to live by the man that just died for you, you're doing your damnedest to recover from mako poisoning, but you have nothing in the world as far as you know to live for and an alien virus screwing up your head... yeah, that's the cuckoo point.

Though it's still true that Barret and Tifa avoided the issue of why they were in AVALANCHE at the start, so it does seem off to me.

Cid's dream most definitely meant everything to him. Aerith finding out that her boyfriend died five years after her last contact with him and picking herself up better then any of the above isn't something to wonder at.

First, to address your whole post: I never said they were all equal, I said there was a theme. (Aerith's reaction certainly isn't equal; you don't see her blowing up reactors or cussing everyone out.) Second, what the heck makes Cid's "I want to be the first in space" dream more important than a dead loved one? Because HE acts like it was important to him? Aerith sure acted like Zack was important to her.

Cid still had everyone around him (he's actually pretty well respected in the town, seems). His loss is severe because he invested so much hope in it. Aerith invested a lot of hope in Zack too, both during their dating period and while waiting for him. By the end, she might not have still been waiting for him to come back to her, but that doesn't mean she didn't wish him well or that it wouldn't hurt to hear him die. Both Cid's and Aerith's losses are important for them because they decided that what was lost was important.