Character discussion split from LTD (Narritivium ahoy)

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yeah, and technically, the mere existence of the earlier AVALANCHE isn't a retcon. IN FF7 Barret mentions that AVALANCHE was founded in Cosmo Canyon - but it wasn't him who did so. So the game did already have AVALANCHE before Barret came along. Their actions and behavior was all added later of course.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Weren't Wedge and Biggs all like "So this is your first time in AVALANCHE, eh?" "You maybe SOLDIER, but here in AVALANCHE, we're seniors and you're the rookie." And so on, making extremely clear this isn't their first job, unlike Cloud.
 
Biggs
"Wow! You used to be in SOLDIER all right! ...Not
everyday ya find one in a group like AVALANCHE."

Jessie
"SOLDIER? Aren't they the enemy?"
"What's he doing with us in AVALANCHE?"

Biggs
"Hold it, Jessie. He WAS in SOLDIER."
"He quit them and now is one of us."

I don't see any indication that Barret's AVALANCHE has had any previous jobs. Sure, Barret calls Cloud a "newcomer", the very first line in the game, but he could just be a newcomer to the group without them having done a job before this big bombing.

EDIT:
Biggs
"Think how many of our people risked their lives, just for this
code..."

This is probably the closest hint we have to a 'job' before this one. One that involved getting the codes for the reactor. Interestingly enough though, no code is required for Mako Reactor #5. All they do is press three panels at once. Which is...kinda weird.

Second edit:
...The thread has gone off-topic now, hasn't it?
 
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I kinda got the impression that Barret's AVALANCHE were meant to come across as a group of misguided amateurs who'd hitched their revenge wagon to a famous name. If you are willing to accept the Compilation, then of course everyone is Midgar has heard of AVALANCHE, just as we've all heard of Al-Qaeda. But not every act carried out in al-Qaeda's name is done by 'professional' terrorists trained by al-Qaeda.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Wasn't it more like, Avalanche is a name of (eco) terrorists well known, but all the members when you start FF are rather new and hadn't had that much of bombing and all anyway? o_o

I had the impression that it wasn't their first time either - I didn't dwell too much on it though. I just got along with it, I don't think they necessarily thought a lot about the consequences. They were the good guys using bad ways, then quickly shit got them and they stopped using bad ways?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Barret's AVALANCHE did their first real job in bombing Mako Reactor 1. There were no other terrorist jobs, aside from Jessie hacking and them trying to acquire the data in order to do the job in the first place.

Barret's AVALANCHE formed a little before FFVII. It was the same year the adventure started. So there's very little time for them to have done any major terrorist activities save intel gathering and the like. The game never gives any indication that they had any real experience doing shit like this before. It was their first real "bombing run."
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Plus, coming back around to Tifa, I'd like to think the girl would have more of an emotional reaction to killing tons of civilians in the blast. I'd actually picture her pretty reluctant for her first time doing this -- instead she's just all, "Yeah, I'm heading out too GO TEAM!"
I think her general impression was 'we are ruining a mako reactor so that more people don't have to die because of it' and may have thought there would be no casualties besides, obviously, the reactor. She seems very idealistic about the removal of the mako reactors in a way that implies she honestly thought there would be no lives lost with the bombings, making her perhaps a tad naive.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The loss of life was a mistake. It wasn't intended. Hence them purposefully going when all the workers were out. She was clearly devastated once they realized all those people got killed due to them.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
You also have to consider the timeline. The very next day after the bombing, before she can really get a grasp on what the real damages are, she's on another mission. And then she thinks Cloud is dead. And then, Sector 7 falls. And then rush into Shinra building. And then leaving Midgar and probably a huge chunk of the time is without really standing by to watch the news.

All these things happen rapid fire, when she does finally get to ruminate on what she's done, she does regret what she has done.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
You also have to consider the timeline. The very next day after the bombing, before she can really get a grasp on what the real damages are, she's on another mission. And then she thinks Cloud is dead. And then, Sector 7 falls. And then rush into Shinra building. And then leaving Midgar and probably a huge chunk of the time is without really standing by to watch the news.

All these things happen rapid fire, when she does finally get to ruminate on what she's done, she does regret what she has done.

We don't even see her reaction after all that has happened. We're still tethered to Cloud that day.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
We don't even see her reaction after all that has happened. We're still tethered to Cloud that day.
Tifa makes a vague reference to their guilt after Cait Sith confronts Barret about the whole deal.
Cait Sith
"Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good!"
"Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do
whatever y'all want?"

(Barret spins to face him.)

Barret
"I don't wanna hear that from no one in Shinra..."

(He turns back to the window. Cait Sith slumps down.)

Cait Sith
"......nuthin' I can do 'bout that..."



Cloud
"Stop it!"

Tifa
"Cait Sith...... Barret, he knows what he did."
"What we did in Midgar can't be forgotten no matter what the
reason."

"Right? We haven't forgotten, right?"

But I was mostly talking about the Case of stories. Before then there was too much happening and too much to fight for to really sit down and consider what they were really doing.

The respite they are given after Meteor allowed Tifa and Barret to face their guilt.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
That's not her initial reaction after the events happen.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'm not saying she's not a strong character, because she clearly is and Square demonstrates that very well. I'm saying, give her her OWN storyline.

That worked out so well for Vincent, amirite? :awesome:

In all honesty, I don't see the need for her to have "her own" storyline any more than I saw the need for Vincent. Could we fill up more than a novella (which she already has) with how she went from being Nibelheim's favorite daughter to a terrorist anyway?

We know why she did it, we know how she got to Midgar, and we can reasonably guess how she became a bartender at 7th Heaven and met Barret. Beyond that, there's really nothing of significance about her that remains unknown.

While l agree with everyone who says that most demonstrations of her strength and feelings are in some way tied up in Cloud, that's just her role and there's nothing wrong with that. It's who she is. If anything, going out of one's way to portray her in another fashion would take more away from her.

Let's not forget that Cloud's story is every bit as tied up in Tifa as hers is in him. He's just usually the focus.

Or maybe I think the woman's place is in the kitchen/behind the bar. :awesome: I can't decide.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
That worked out so well for Vincent, amirite? :awesome:

In all honesty, I don't see the need for her to have "her own" storyline any more than I saw the need for Vincent. Could we fill up more than a novella (which she already has) with how she went from being Nibelheim's favorite daughter to a terrorist anyway?
except Vincent did have a storyline outside of Cloud. Lucrecia, that is all. It's not like anyone really cared about his storyline outside of that. Tifa has... uh... Tifa likes the planet and doesn't want it to explode! Hurrah!

Let's not forget that Cloud's story is every bit as tied up in Tifa as hers is in him. He's just usually the focus.
yeah like zack. tifa was so tied up in zack as well and zack was her best friend, and experimentation happened to her too and

oh wait
 
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Splintered

unsavory tart
except Vincent did have a storyline outside of Cloud. Lucrecia, that is all. It's not like anyone really cared about his storyline outside of that. Tifa has... uh... Tifa likes the planet and doesn't want it to explode! Hurrah!
I think what he was talking about was not having a story tied to Cloud. Vincent's entire character and his development is tied to Lucrecia, although DoC changed that.

There are characters who's entire story revolves around another character other than Tifa. Vincent was one. I'd argue Amarant's entire purpose was to be around Zidane, though he had a small side thing going with the other assassin (but not much). Freya has this problem as well, with her love story. The last one I can think of is Fang, who's entire purpose hangs around Vanille.

I think the difference that people see is that Tifa's a main heroine compared to Amarant and Freya. She's also a much better character than the both of them- who tend to be kind of shallow and uninteresting. Fang mixed it up because her entire story was about another female so a lot of people think it's more interesting or progressive or something. I don't particularly buy that, but you know.
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
But what else in Midgar has been destroyed? No other reactors, that's certain.

Honestly, we only see much of the Midgar slums (not the above city), and those look like a craphole with everything in ruin already. I don't think they'd feel a need to show what else AVALANCHE has destroyed before their first reactor mission.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I think what he was talking about was not having a story tied to Cloud. Vincent's entire character and his development is tied to Lucrecia, although DoC changed that.

Vincent's arc wasn't really about Lucrecia though. It was about getting revenge on Hojo for everything that he did to him. Lucrecia fuelled the arc, but it wasn't what it was all about.

There are characters who's entire story revolves around another character other than Tifa. Vincent was one. I'd argue Amarant's entire purpose was to be around Zidane, though he had a small side thing going with the other assassin (but not much). Freya has this problem as well, with her love story. The last one I can think of is Fang, who's entire purpose hangs around Vanille.

Personally, I found Amarant to be a rather boring/flat character for his lack of character to be honest. Freya had that bit about avenging her hometown and the guilt she had over leaving it in the first place (I don't quite remember, it's been a while sine I've played FFIX).

I think the difference that people see is that Tifa's a main heroine compared to Amarant and Freya. She's also a much better character than the both of them- who tend to be kind of shallow and uninteresting. Fang mixed it up because her entire story was about another female so a lot of people think it's more interesting or progressive or something. I don't particularly buy that, but you know.

I'd say Fang and Vanille had a joint story, but I'd agree that Vanille's arc was more independant than Fang was from hers.

Here's a little bit of dialogue I just remembered that pretty much sums everything up quite eloquently, I think.

FFVII said:
Rufus
"Who are you guys?"

(The camera focuses on each person in turn.)

Cloud
"I'm Cloud, former SOLDIER First Class!"

Barret
"I'm from AVALANCHE!"

Tifa
"Same here!"

Aerith
"...a flower girl from the slums."

Red XIII
"A research specimen."

(Rufus shrugs.)

Rufus
"What a crew."
 

Vendel

Banned
Honestly all these characters are shallow. Every single one of them HAS to be linked with either Shinra or Jenova somehow. C'mon people Show a little independence.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
except Vincent did have a storyline outside of Cloud. Lucrecia, that is all.

And what a riveting, lengthy tale demanding another game that was.

Rangiku said:
It's not like anyone really cared about his storyline outside of that. Tifa has... uh... Tifa likes the planet and doesn't want it to explode! Hurrah!

Tifa was something like the daughter of a small-town mayor with the attention and adoration she received, the focus of attention for every male in ogling distance, someone who lost her mother at a young age (immediately followed by a week-long coma), was brought up to be more of a fighter than most boys, and was too shy to make eye contact with a boy she liked who -- unbeknownst to her -- also digged her.

She grows up a little bit after the boy leaves town, but is still a child. Then, her father and -- as far as she's aware -- every friend she has in the world is butchered by someone she trusted. Her town is burnt to the ground, and she's left with absolutely nothing.

Well, almost nothing. The guy who murdered her father, friends, etc. and destroyed her town also left her with a life-threatening injury.

Anyway, she then becomes driven by hate, but learns that the one whom she wants revenge upon is supposedly already dead, forever beyond her reach and vengeance. In the meantime, she takes up a job doing, of all things, bartending in a shithole slum for guys who doubtlessly try getting under her skirt every night. She also befriends a group of other bitter people who have a bone to pick with those who played a role in the sorrow she has known, and learns from them that these same individuals are also literally killing the world.

She joins them in becoming an outlaw, covertly launching attacks to bring down the behemoth organization that controls the world.

As well, she becomes a mother figure to a young child who is often left in her care. Despite the hate that brought her to where she is, she finds herself in a position of caring for an innocent life, and her natural compassion continues swelling to the surface -- both in the care of the child and in the care of her fellow terrorists, for whom she cooks meals every night.

Time passes, she encounters the boy who she'd had a thing for years earlier. He's alive. Mucked up, but alive. She begins taking care of him, realizes that he's not quite right in the head, and once he's well enough to get around on his own, she asks him to join her group's efforts to upset the status quo.

She loses half of her new family not long after, and also soon learns that the one who was directly responsible for the majority of pain she has suffered in her life -- as well as the great anguish that her lost/rediscovered crush has dealt with -- is not only alive and well, but preparing to wreak more havoc in the world. She resolves to put him in the ground for good.

Despite those efforts eventually being successful, and despite building a loyal, loving family unit around herself, she's left with feelings of guilt and regret for innocent lives lost when hate had been her motivation above all else. She realizes that she has willfully enacted upon others the same sorrow that was shoved onto her -- and though she'd like for her memories and her own life to all just be washed away, she realizes that she must deal with what she's done, if not for her own sake, then for the child who looks at her as a mother, and for the man in love with her, whom she loves back.

That sounds like a story all bound up in Cloud?

Rangiku said:
yeah like zack. tifa was so tied up in zack as well and zack was her best friend, and experimentation happened to her too and

oh wait

No, see, I said "Cloud" not "Zack." :monster:

And, yeah, his story his heavily tied up in her, just as a good bit of hers is in him. She's the reason he wanted to join SOLDIER, she was part of his motivation when he killed Sephiroth the first time, she unknowingly played a major role in forming his false persona, and she was ultimately the one who guided him through sorting it out.

Oh, and she's the chick he's in love with, who fucks him the night before he believes he's marching to his death, and begins living with him/raising a family with him immediately after shit's settled up with their nemesis.

So, yeah, I'd say they're equally wrapped up in each other. Neither's tale is completely tied to the other's, though.
 
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looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Tres - what you describe is Tifa's backstory leading up to the game, not really an arc in the same way the other characters have a defining arc. Backstory =/= arc. All of those issues you mention aren't really dealt with in the game's present timeline. During the game itself she doesn't really have an outstanding arc that isn't shared by the rest of the cast. She acts merely as a plot device. We don't really get a whole lot of introspection from the character regarding her issues (that don't regard Cloud) in the same way we get them from the rest of the cast.

Also, notice how I don't mention On the Way to a Smile/AC.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
Vincent's arc wasn't really about Lucrecia though. It was about getting revenge on Hojo for everything that he did to him. Lucrecia fuelled the arc, but it wasn't what it was all about.
It was all about Lucrecia though. His revenge for Lucrecia. He looked for Sephiroth for Lucrecia. He angsts about Lucrecia, he fought for Lucrecia, he hated Hojo because of Lucrecia. He got his limit breaks from Lucrecia. He wanted revenge for Hojo, but Tifa wanted revenge on Sephiroth too. Doesn't mean it made her character independent, each character had something that broke apart from their character dependency. But as whole, they didn't change.
Personally, I found Amarant to be a rather boring/flat character for his lack of character to be honest. Freya had that bit about avenging her hometown and the guilt she had over leaving it in the first place (I don't quite remember, it's been a while sine I've played FFIX).
Did she? I don't remember much of it because I'm pretty sure she met Sir Fratley when her home was destroyed so that took precedence.

But like I said, hurdur Amarant and Freya- being the two most easily ignorable characters in IX. Shame because Freya could have been cool. Amarant is just a failure *hates Amarant*
I'd say Fang and Vanille had a joint story, but I'd agree that Vanille's arc was more independant than Fang was from hers.
Fang is as dependent, if not more so, than Tifa. There was reciprocity especially towards the end, but Vanille got to experience strong development without her through her guilt and through Sazh. Fang never did. She was just so well done as a character nobody bothered to point it out. The same thing happened with Tifa.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Tres - what you describe is Tifa's backstory leading up to the game, not really an arc in the same way the other characters have a defining arc. Backstory =/= arc.

If we're throwing out the characters' backstories as being related to their personal arcs, then Vincent gets no arc in the game either. But I'd still challenge anyone to say he doesn't have one.

Reeve/Cait Sith can hardly be said to have more than Tifa either.

looneymoon said:
All of those issues you mention aren't really dealt with in the game's present timeline. During the game itself she doesn't really have an outstanding arc that isn't shared by the rest of the cast. She acts merely as a plot device. We don't really get a whole lot of introspection from the character regarding her issues (that don't regard Cloud) in the same way we get them from the rest of the cast.

I don't disagree that Tifa doesn't have her own section of the game the same way that Barret, Red XIII, Aerith, Yuffie, and -- to a lesser extent -- Cid does.

So, you're right, Tifa doesn't have a major section of the game with a lot of introspection from her. That's true. We don't get a lot of it, no, but we get some of it. We know she went from being fueled by hate -- and making excuses for what she did in her quest for revenge -- to accepting responsibility for what she did and finding something else to live for.

Vincent doesn't have more than that -- he goes from blaming himself for shit that he isn't responsible for and punishing himself to realizing that he isn't to blame and deciding that his "time is just beginning."

Reeve doesn't have more than that -- he was a major figure in Shin-Ra, yet he realizes that he's started to believe in what AVALANCHE is doing and that he's willing to betray his company for it.

That's about it for both of those characters.

I get that Vincent is an optional character and Cait Sith is definitely a supporting character while Tifa's a main, but they're all significant to the story.

looneymoon said:
Also, notice how I don't mention On the Way to a Smile/AC.

In that spirit, I've only referenced things from the original game in this newest post. Though I'd say Case of Tifa should definitely fulfill anyone's concern that Tifa doesn't get an introspectional period that satisfactorily completes a personal arc of her own.
 

Raquelborn

"I slice your ass in 4."
AKA
Raq, Raquel.
[Fang] was just so well done as a character nobody bothered to point it out. The same thing happened with Tifa.

Which is exactly why I wish SE would think/have thought of giving gamers additional insight into both Fang and Tifa in their respective games, on their own, not dependent on other characters. What a waste. And they could have/could do so!
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Eh...I mean I see what you all are saying...I've just never felt like I was being cheated out of Tifa airtime (or Fang). We know everything that has happened to her over her entire life, just about, how much more can they tell us?

And I would say Cloud is MORE dependent on other characters than she is. I agree with Tres about how attached his story is to hers, and any time any point of development ISN'T tied to her, its tied to Sephiroth.

And run by me again why we're not counting Case of Tifa? It's not the original game...okay. Well the original game is not going to magically change because we bitch, she DID get introspection in the Compilation - and in one of its better entries at that.
 
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