Concept art from art gallery
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Shademp
420
*looks up definitions of dorky*
I don't remember Cloud being particularly "dorky" in the original game. He starts out aloof, super-serious and unpleasant. Then he gradually warms up to the people around him to the point where he can (if the player chooses) joke about Barret's sailor suit. However I find Cloud's personality difficult to pin down in the original game.
I would like to make a deeper analyzis of this at some point, but when I play FFVII and get to the points after Kalm, Cloud's personality traits feel mostly non-distinct. Yes, he has his personal struggles with Sephiroth that define him, but apart from that? I can't form a clear picture. I also don't feel comfortable quoting the "Let's mosey" line as an example of Cloud's dorkiness, because I always felt like that silly line came out of nowhere with pretty much no precedence in Cloud's behavior. Ergo, I can't use it as a representation of who Cloud is.
I don't remember Cloud being particularly "dorky" in the original game. He starts out aloof, super-serious and unpleasant. Then he gradually warms up to the people around him to the point where he can (if the player chooses) joke about Barret's sailor suit. However I find Cloud's personality difficult to pin down in the original game.
I would like to make a deeper analyzis of this at some point, but when I play FFVII and get to the points after Kalm, Cloud's personality traits feel mostly non-distinct. Yes, he has his personal struggles with Sephiroth that define him, but apart from that? I can't form a clear picture. I also don't feel comfortable quoting the "Let's mosey" line as an example of Cloud's dorkiness, because I always felt like that silly line came out of nowhere with pretty much no precedence in Cloud's behavior. Ergo, I can't use it as a representation of who Cloud is.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Real Cloud is suppose to be an awkward boy, I feel like that's establised, Tifa has a perception of him of this bad boy that gets into a lot of fights but she doesn't know her dad blames him for Tifa going up the mountain (as opposed to her other friends who went with her and ditched her, unbeknownst to anyone other then they and Cloud) Cloud just has difficulty making friends, got more isolated after Tifa's mom died until he met Zack. Zack and Cloud do put in practice trying out cool poses, that's what their friendship was like.
Shademp
420
Boy Cloud is at least meant to have trouble fitting in socially (which is then hinted at more in Crisis Core) but is adult Cloud "awkward" during the adventure in the original game? Is that what people mean by Cloud supposedly being "dorky"? If so, then I have little to no understanding of where that perception comes from.
Dorky isn't really that blunt a word. It's mostly an insult towards anyone who is acting foolish at the time, or whose been caught up in a situation that makes them look bad to the amusement of others.
When you look over the comedic moments in the game, Cloud has a habit of letting events steam roll right over him, and taking him along with it for whatever ride the writers want to take him on. That's the "Dorky" side, which is kinda ultimately summed up by "Let's Mosey."
Cloud is a country boy trying very hard to be a cool guy, and sometimes doesn't quite stick the landing.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
See also, Cid's assessment:
Cid said:
Random Nobody
local roach
So not only are they just now finalising the appearance of the major characters, but they also are not releasing them to we of the destitute public, who are dying?
EDIT:
What dih mean (re: looks).Because he's always looked like someone who sprints through the streets wearing a Naruto headband
EDIT:
What dih mean (re: looks).
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hian
Purist
Cloud's personality is pretty maliable up until the point you fixes his memories. There's relatively decent room for people to play and project their own personality, and it was personally something I really enjoyed about the original, and also why I loath discussions about what is supposedly Cloud's canon romantic preference or whatever.
The game (and indeed any game) that is constructed to allow the player to have impact on the narrative should be respective as open-ended experiences, and thought of as outside of conventional ideas of canon imo.
Was Cloud the kind of guy who stopped after bombing a reactor to buy a flower from a girl he found intriguing, or was he the kind of professionalist that would tell her to scram and rush back to HQ?
Is he the kinda guy who has a strong drink after a job well done, or isn't he?
Is he the kind of guy who prioritizes running with the girls once he hits the world-map like a hound, or the kinda guy who makes a well-balanced party based on who he feels is most fitting for the journey? etc etc etc.
In my opinion Cloud isn't any of these. He's, in part, all of them - a Schrödinger's protagonist. The biggest mistake imo is when people fail to see this and box him in, as this inevitably sets people up to get upset or feel like the material has lost touch with itself when Square invariably makes changes to the character, or writes moments for him that shows a side we haven't seen or grown accustomed to.
Was Cloud dorky? Sometimes. Sometimes you could make him more dorky than otherwise. He was also hard and apathetic, cool and aloof, he was also soft and silly, sarcastic and laid-back.
Cloud had a broad and varied range of charcteristics and potential characteristics. It's what IMO made him feel human, and made him a good protagonist.
Hopefully they conserve that in the remake, instead of making him a one-trick-pony like he was in most of the compilation (or indeed as a lot of characters are in large portions of the Japanese story-telling tradition), or in the heads of so many fans - one way or the other, be it dorky or cool.
It's only fitting that a game that's in part about identity, allows players to experience the dynamic of playing with Cloud's personality, project themselves unto it, and then have it be pulled back by a later reveal of the "real" Cloud. It's a kind of meta-commentary on the construction of identity that really elevates the original's plot.
Cloud the character, which was a redesign of what was later turned into Zack, and then the play on that development history (by having Cloud playing the part of Zack unknown to the player), while the player inserts him or herself into Cloud, then having the reveal is what makes Cloud, the same way human identity is a result of their past history, their present perception of themselves, and othet people's perception of them in turn.
In a way it shows the both the callous and serendipitous way in which both developers and players treat the characters of their stories (and perhaps in real life).
Cloud is an amalgamation of the design process of the developers, the story as we perceive it, and the character as we construct him - his entire arc, and the choices we are given in his shoes, all come together to make a commentary, on purpose or not, about what makes a human a human.
The game (and indeed any game) that is constructed to allow the player to have impact on the narrative should be respective as open-ended experiences, and thought of as outside of conventional ideas of canon imo.
Was Cloud the kind of guy who stopped after bombing a reactor to buy a flower from a girl he found intriguing, or was he the kind of professionalist that would tell her to scram and rush back to HQ?
Is he the kinda guy who has a strong drink after a job well done, or isn't he?
Is he the kind of guy who prioritizes running with the girls once he hits the world-map like a hound, or the kinda guy who makes a well-balanced party based on who he feels is most fitting for the journey? etc etc etc.
In my opinion Cloud isn't any of these. He's, in part, all of them - a Schrödinger's protagonist. The biggest mistake imo is when people fail to see this and box him in, as this inevitably sets people up to get upset or feel like the material has lost touch with itself when Square invariably makes changes to the character, or writes moments for him that shows a side we haven't seen or grown accustomed to.
Was Cloud dorky? Sometimes. Sometimes you could make him more dorky than otherwise. He was also hard and apathetic, cool and aloof, he was also soft and silly, sarcastic and laid-back.
Cloud had a broad and varied range of charcteristics and potential characteristics. It's what IMO made him feel human, and made him a good protagonist.
Hopefully they conserve that in the remake, instead of making him a one-trick-pony like he was in most of the compilation (or indeed as a lot of characters are in large portions of the Japanese story-telling tradition), or in the heads of so many fans - one way or the other, be it dorky or cool.
It's only fitting that a game that's in part about identity, allows players to experience the dynamic of playing with Cloud's personality, project themselves unto it, and then have it be pulled back by a later reveal of the "real" Cloud. It's a kind of meta-commentary on the construction of identity that really elevates the original's plot.
Cloud the character, which was a redesign of what was later turned into Zack, and then the play on that development history (by having Cloud playing the part of Zack unknown to the player), while the player inserts him or herself into Cloud, then having the reveal is what makes Cloud, the same way human identity is a result of their past history, their present perception of themselves, and othet people's perception of them in turn.
In a way it shows the both the callous and serendipitous way in which both developers and players treat the characters of their stories (and perhaps in real life).
Cloud is an amalgamation of the design process of the developers, the story as we perceive it, and the character as we construct him - his entire arc, and the choices we are given in his shoes, all come together to make a commentary, on purpose or not, about what makes a human a human.
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I think the key to knowing the 'real' Cloud is to look at the events where you aren't given any choices with him. He cross dresses, is thoroughly called out on sexism, he rides a dolphin, he's made to join a parade, fight an arena tournament single handedly for a rich man's amusement, ride a chocobo for freedom, the list does go on a bit. Invariably he's kind of this put-upon character who wants to act cool, but he gives into people's demands easily.
This goes right up to even Advent Children, where despite managing to seem like he's absolutely abandoned his friends, all it takes is being shamed by Marlene to really set him right. An 8 year old girl chastises him and it WORKS, which is some understated comedy gold lost in all of Advent Children's melodrama. In some ways Cloud never stopped being 16.
hian
Purist
I guess my point is that humans don't have a single "true nature".
Ultimately, your points here fall into the "how I percieve you" category of characterization, which is informed by your personal background.
Cloud could be a character consisting of act A, B, C, and personality trait X, Y and Z, but ultimately who Cloud is, or who anyone else is, is a matter of which of these acts and traits you narrow down on based on your particular biases. Furthermore, this act of characterization is colored by your particular values as it pertains to whether you think any of those particular acts or traits are good/bad.
For instance, I never saw Cloud as being someone who easily gives into people's demands. I think personally, there are more examples of Cloud being assertive throughout the game - although, like any human being, you also see him being uncertain and be swayed by other people.
Also, as I said, I think the most important thing here is realizing that Cloud is an amalgamation - as are all human beings.
Fake Cloud is also Cloud. One cannot sepparate Soldier persona Cloud from player Cloud, from post memory-fix Cloud. They are all facets of Cloud and Cloud's personal history, and those facets as a whole is what makes up "the character Cloud".
Tying this point back to my point on character amalgamation and perspectives being changed by biases -
Even if I were to grant that Cloud is dorky because he rode a dolphin, you could spin around on a coin there and point to Cloud driving a motorcycle through the Shinra building and out on the high-way, while swinging his huge sword to fight off enemy combatants - also on motorcycles - totally cool, stone-cold killer Cloud.
I'm not arguing he is the latter - I'm simply arguing that Cloud embodies all those facets, and that what kind of character anyone thinks Cloud is, is going to be informed by which of those scenes or facets they make the focal point for their reading of the character, following from their particular personal biases.
Addressing your particular characterization here though :
I don't think it makes much sense to think of the circumstances forced upon Cloud as a basis for determining that Cloud is a person who "gives into people's demands easily."
All non-linear stories force characters down a path. It's not a failure of the character's personality that they cannot move outside of that - that's simply a result of the contrivances of the story as imposed on the character by the author(s).
You can't not have that happen and still have a linear story, and you can't have a linear story and not have that happen to some extent.
The context of what is going on in those events is key to understanding what the character is thinking and their motivation for going along with their circumstances.
Cloud rides a dolphin because it's the most apparent means of entering Junon - he's not doing it because he just loves riding dolphins, or because somebody is telling/forcing him to do so.
Cloud isn't simply made to join a parade either, he goes along with it, again, because it serves his need for infiltrating the facility and going unnoticed.
He doesn't fight an arena tournament single handedly for a rich man's amusement, he fights in it for the key-stone.
Riding a chocobo for freedom is another example of Cloud being proactive and doing something necessary. He isn't just doing that because he's to weak-willed to resist it.
I think there's a huge distinction between simply doing something for someone else as a result of pressure alone, and doing something for someone else on the basis that it's convenient and beneficial to yourself.
But again, that's a distinction I see because of who I am, and how I think.
We're looking at the same data and seeing two completely different things.
You see that as Cloud as a person who gives into people's demands easily. I see a proactive guy who does what he has to do to make shit happen under circumstances that offer few, if any, choices.
Also, just out of curiousity :
when does this ever happen in the game :
"- is thoroughly called out on sexism".
I can't think of a single scene where Cloud is called out for sexism. I can't think of a single scene where Cloud is doing anything that would call for him being thoroughly called out for sexism.
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
I assume he means where Aerith chastises him for telling her to go home, though I wouldn't call that sexist, necessarily. He does say once "I dunno, getting help from a girl." Though he never really says anything like that at any other point, and seems deeply in the "Cloud trying to act like what he thinks a SOLDIER would be like" phase.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
This needs to be the introduction to a book. Preferably one doing analysis of FFVII, but if it has to be something unrelated, then so be it.
Yep. Aerith: The girl who refuses to be stuck in the freezer till she's literally dead, and even then insists on participating in the plot. Love that girl.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Oooooooooooooo!
Mage
She/They
- AKA
- Mage
https://www.instagram.com/tigerfrank75
Mrs Ferrari's Insta page, she's endearingly nerdy. I can well believe she inspired Jessie's design.
Mrs Ferrari's Insta page, she's endearingly nerdy. I can well believe she inspired Jessie's design.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Yeah same, like the rest of the design of is fine, but whenever I see the chest armor I worry about her sternum being fractured.