Cowboy Bebop Live-Action Series

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
You know, I didn't expect the writers of the live action to have a Vulcan mind-meld with the creators of Cowboy Bebop or something....

But they seriously lost the plot. Like, it completely went over their head. The changes are shoehorned soap opera connections that add nothing of value. This isn't that kind of show. This is just reductionist high school theatre class condensing of a story. Not sure why they did that.
 

ph14basicbitch

shinra merch buyer
AKA
koda
I am probably 1 of 20 people living on Earth who prefers the Japanese anime voice actors over the English dub voice actors, but I was able to make it thru episodes 1-5 of live action Bebop by turning on the Japanese dub that used the same key voice actors from the anime.

Admittedly, I was also drunk.

Some of it was fun (Ein, I'm talking about Ein), but overall it feels mediocre. I dodged a lot of the really cringe shit that turned up on Twitter already (e.g. "it's black mail because you're black, and a male") cause it was dubbed differently. The Hashtag Girl Boss characterization that Faye has was also pleasantly not conveyed in the dubbed audio either.

Based on all of the spoiler tags about the green bird / church scene, I guess I'm in for a good time (?) in eps 6-10.
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
I've been half watching it by being in the same room as my housemates while they watch it. I would say it's telling a different story, for better or worse. Vicious is being set up as a kind of pathetic, desperate villain as opposed to what he is in the anime, and a bunch of things are changed around to fit that. Julia too, is being made an actual character, and deliberately not a likeable one, which is jarring but I don't actually hate?

The dialogue is super hit and miss. Sometimes I find it genuinely good, often it falls flat. The "black and male" line is played off as cringey in context fwiw, everyone kinda winces when she says it.

I don't love it, it's nowhere near the original anime in quality or story, but it's fun enough as background noise and John Cho is very nice to look at. I am only 3 eps in though...

I am probably 1 of 20 people living on Earth who prefers the Japanese anime voice actors over the English dub voice

*raises hand* I watched the subs first and have never been able to cope with the English voice. Spike's personality genuinely comes off as different in the dub, for me anyway. I'd have trouble having the live action on in the background in Japanese though :mon:
 

ph14basicbitch

shinra merch buyer
AKA
koda
I hate vicious's wig so, so much. I'm not really vibing with his character ether. Part of the comedy of watching this for me is hearing wakamoto's hammy voice come out of live action vicious.

*raises hand* I watched the subs first and have never been able to cope with the English voice. Spike's personality genuinely comes off as different in the dub, for me anyway.
Ahaha we are 2 of 20 then. I actually saw it first dubbed then later watched it subbed and preferred the jp audio quite a bit. Faye is the big one for me.

I'd have trouble having the live action on in the background in Japanese though :mon:
Counter point: You don't have to suffer through the script if you don't understand it.
 

Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
Counter point: In the anime proper, Spike is so nonchalant as to nearly be a non-character. This is ok in an anime; in a live-action show it's not. People are going to look like people, and not artwork, every time.

I get why John Cho is playing him the way he is; Spike is so cool as to seem inhuman, a lot. I feel like Cho's performance is bringing a lot of personality to Spike, that was fulfilled by anime tropes before. You can't do certain things in live-action as well.

Case in point: try holding your face perfectly still, with a camera on it. See how long you can do it.

I find it telling that I am the only new fan of this series that's commenting here, and my opinion of it is better than the long-runners.

Doesn't that constitute a pattern of thinking and behavior, to you? That this happens with any Major IP every time they update them?
 

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
you know what, I do not understand the hate that this show is getting from critics. I think it's very fun and well done! The only misstep in my book is Vicious, whose character seems completely off from the anime.
 

Prism

Pro Adventurer
AKA
pikpixelart
Counter point: In the anime proper, Spike is so nonchalant as to nearly be a non-character. This is ok in an anime; in a live-action show it's not. People are going to look like people, and not artwork, every time.

I get why John Cho is playing him the way he is; Spike is so cool as to seem inhuman, a lot. I feel like Cho's performance is bringing a lot of personality to Spike, that was fulfilled by anime tropes before. You can't do certain things in live-action as well.

Case in point: try holding your face perfectly still, with a camera on it. See how long you can do it.

I find it telling that I am the only new fan of this series that's commenting here, and my opinion of it is better than the long-runners.

Doesn't that constitute a pattern of thinking and behavior, to you? That this happens with any Major IP every time they update them?
There is a pattern of behavior to some extent. A portion of the fan base is always going to be unhappy with changes, it's true. But individual people have different opinions, where it isn't the same people every time. For example, someone who loves FFVII: Remake and dislikes this Bebop adaptation (like a handful of people here do)

The ratio of fans who are pleased vs displeased matters a lot. For example, Ocarina of Time's 3ds remake displeased some (who said it was too bright compared to the original) but as a whole, people were quite happy with it. It might be a bad example because of how close it is to the original game; so a better example would be the Resident 2 Remake. It's quite different as far as gameplay is concerned, but respected the original vision to the point where the vast majority of people loved it. In summary, it's very possible for refreshes to Major IPs to be well-received, but it's a very fine needle to thread.

Bebop is important to many people, so the changes that they made to the tone and writing have upset people. The jury's still not totally in for me, as I haven't seen it outside of clips, but from what I can tell, the series suddenly seems to remember that it's Cowboy Bebop every now and then and forget it the next moment. It's very capricious in that sense.

I will say, though, I am also pretty tired of the "I hate this new thing" cycle. I think it's a sign that media should be focused more on making new content than trying to remake old ones.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Exactly, nandemoyasan, you acted like this in the Pixel Remaster thread too. Just because someone doesn't like a new thing, doesn't automatically mean they're a "hater" who refuses to like new things.

By all means discuss why you disagree, but don't act like the others are just being obstinate, people here are reasonable.
 

Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
It's very capricious in that sense.

As a brand new fan, capriciousness seems to be Cowboy Bebop's whole deal, to me. "Iunno, we wanted to make a cool show, stop thinking so hard about it" seems written all over the thing. Radical Edward is practically the concept of capriciousness, incarnate.

Exactly, nandemoyasan, you acted like this in the Pixel Remaster thread too. Just because someone doesn't like a new thing, doesn't automatically mean they're a "hater" who refuses to like new things.

By all means discuss why you disagree, but don't act like the others are just being obstinate, people here are reasonable.

No I get it, I'm just saying, it does cause me some degree of annoyance. Not table-flipping worthy levels of it mind you, but I am far more interested in discussing serious trains of thought than with actually being upset about fiction. I may sound a bit more biting than I intend. Sometimes I'm a little drunk when I post too, on account of it being during my off hours from work... I'll behave, don't worry
 

Prism

Pro Adventurer
AKA
pikpixelart
Hopefully they’ll learn from the feedback and make a strong season 2! I think it’d be a shame for them to stop here and leave it as something that has good intentions but mixed execution

Edit: Just was made to watch the last episode, not sure it can be saved. The way they handle Julia and Vicious is absolutely lame
 
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Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
Idk, maybe this series doesn't have much meaning for me, since I just now discovered it. I love it, but it hasn't been something I've "lived with" over the years.

To me, the original 26 episodes play like an Action Flick Tone Poem about humanity and what our future (probably) will be like, if it looks anything like the way it looks, now. That's what I think is so endearing about it (aside from the amazing animation that was never skimped on, once): it portrays humanity of the future as more or less humanity of today, but with more spaceships and gadgets, that's all. Still beholden to human nature, still capable of good and evil, and some still just plain crazy with no regard for either. It's a rich, heady brew, for sure, but I think the open nature of it allows for the kind of deviations that the live action series is taking. It's kind of a "Modular Aesthetic," if you will... it can be shifted or changed or altered depending on whose pen is inking the page, unlike so many long running series (looking at you, X-Men) that have drastically shifted depending on the writer.

Cowboy Bebop may be chaos, but it's pure, jazz-infused hard sci-fi dark chocolate chaos. The flavor is what's important to me, not the particulars of the plot or characterization. Does that make sense?
 

ph14basicbitch

shinra merch buyer
AKA
koda
My 2 cents - It feels disingenuous to complain about people comparing this to the anime when Netflix's marketing for this has included posting their re-created opening, as well as a comparison video of the Bebop landing on Tijuana in both the anime and live action. They are trying to appeal to anime watchers so they watch the live action, and also openly comparing it to the anime. :hohum: Why would anime fans not do the same, following this kind of marketing that is aimed at luring them in? This is not just homage or using the same song or referencing a scene, this is actually marketing the show as, "look, we recreated [x]".

(Speaking more generally: When it comes to Japanese media, I find the characterization to be key, so my opinion of this live action will reflect that as well.)
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Finally got around to watching this.

Let me preface this by saying that if you liked this, I'm glad for you. It most definitely is entertaining, and I can see why this would appeal to folks. I'll say that it's... a Cowboy Bebop that fits the time we're in. This isn't Dragonball Evolution levels of trash and that's a blessing. Ultimately, I can appreciate this for what it is. It's another mediocre live action adaptation of an anime.

But it's adapting Cowboy Bebop. So of course this will get scrutiny, and rightfully so.

Aside from the dated fight choreography, poor special effects and just overall low-budget feel it carries (which is ironically the only thing that makes it feel appropriately dated to the era it's source material comes from), there's a very real... change that I think is rightfully pointed out, because it's apparent. This is a poor emulation of the story, that I feel cynically juxtaposes these 1:1 parallels to the anime with a very obvious pivot from the original tone that the anime carried. Nothing wrong with being different, but just be different. And be good but lol that's not always gonna happen now is it?

First off, if you're going to go for a 1:1 parallel to an incredibly stylistic anime like Cowboy Bebop, you better be damn sure your budget can meet that level of incredible style and visual appeal. There's only so much you can do in live action to meet that threshold without incredible use of CGI, proper cinematography, directing, and vision. Which this adaption lacks. Recreating shots like the anime in live film isn't going to automatically translate that style properly; it's going to come off cheap and frankly, anachronistic. Like the 90s when film was trying to figure out how to adapt video games, comic books, and cartoons onto live action film. It's hilarious that everyone at the beginning was freaking out about the main cast which is really the least problematic issue in this series. They're good. And the adaption captures the music, certain scenes, certain conversations, and the setting of the anime but the problem is the quality. The fidelity. And how it juxtaposes these elements with additions of just... attempts of irreverent, forced, and cringey humor that simply isn't necessary.

It's called bathos, and our pop culture is fucking saturated with it. I find it exhausting and I would argue it's become one of the fastest and most corrupting cliches I've seen in media. Fuck, Joss Whedon, lolol. And thanks to the runaway success of Marvel Disney, it's like the go-to bandaid or remedy a work will attempt to try and distract from it's weaknesses. Or maybe it's so ubiquitous and repeated by successful works, that other writers/filmmakers/etc simply don't know any better and just follow the trend. But quippy, irreverent and subversive humor in high doses, kills the mood and isn't something that should be used lightly in a work unless it's a straight comedy or parody. Eventually, it undercuts the story to the point an audience falls out of the narrative.

Cowboy Bebop certainly had comedy, and it was hilarious. But it's hilarity came from a place of authenticity. It was organic, and of course reflective of the medium it came from. Anime. It never undercut it's tone. But here?

I feel this live action adaptation tries to distract from it's obvious low budget and patchwork feel with this bathos type humor and it only just hurts it. Like, it's just so bizarre.

Not gonna comment on the other shit, because it's just so obvious. Vicious looks like shit. And it's unforgivable. I don't know what they were thinking in his casting and new characterization but they've fucked him up. Someone as iconic and stylistic like Vicious requires the utmost care in terms of casting, characterization and writing. He's iconic and badass because of the perfect mix of badass, horror, and lethality. He's intimidating and menacing. Fuck that up and it's like a house of cards that just falls in on itself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving dramatic and iconic villains more agency and screentime *wistfully stares at Sephiroth in FFVII-R*. When it's done well. The original Vicious was a phantom. He was a menacing and horrific shark that appeared near the end and became an overwhelming force that emerged as Spike's past came back to haunt him. Now, he comes off whiny and try-hard. His new backstory just feels melodramatic and facile for who he was before. It's terrible. Not sure what they're doing with Julia. I get they're expanding these characters but, they really picked the wrong direction.

Anyways, this will appeal to some, and that's fine. I didn't expect a masterpiece. And I figured it already had an extremely high bar to try and meet given it's direction and attempt to parallel the anime. So I was willing to cut it some slack. But, man. I really don't know what they're trying to go for. At times it's faithful to a fault. It overreaches itself to the detriment of the overall presentation as an independent work with it's limited budget. And at other times its cringy with it's humor in a flat way. So it's like... What the fuck? Really don't know what the hell they were trying for here. No wonder it was skewered so hard. But hey, it must've done something right. And it's not all bad. :monster:
 
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looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I was legitimately surprised this was a full season of TV, and that there's going to be more. I was honestly under the impression that this was going to be a movie.

For those who've seen it - do you think the budget would have been better utilized for a smaller production?
 

Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
Welp, I've watched all 10.

I don't feel like it was a bad watch at all, but I suppose that not having the iconography living rent-free in my head for 20 years will do that.

What this show is doing, is basically rewriting the DNA of Cowboy Bebop, so that it might draw in fans of currently successful properties. This makes investors happy. This gets the show money to be made. Shows do not get made just because someone says "Let's make this show, I'm really excited about it and fans will love it." Money has to come from somewhere, guys.

That said, I feel like it captures the spirit of the original quite well, but it is clear that this is not intended to replace the anime. This is its own animal, through and through. It respects the anime, and even audiovisually quotes from it sometimes, but it goes very much in its own direction.

And the weird thing is, it's being influenced by things that were influenced by the anime. Think of Kill Bill. The Entire MCU. Game of Thrones, even... (though I've never seen that, I can popculturally osmotically sense it). Cowboy Bebop clearly (in its creators' minds) needed to be able to stand up to what's currently out there, but what's currently out there has been shower-bath-showering in Cowboy Bebop's panache for two decades. I find that kind of ironic.

I am wary of nostalgia at all times. I am a student of music, myself, and I find the process of trying to create new music, when before, there was nothing, to be extremely challenging, and it has only become more so, the more music I hear. I have had to abandon ship on lots of different music over the years, simply because I had heard it over, and over, and *fricking* over. I needed to move forward, not back. That's how artists do.

Cowboy Bebop is moving forward, but the anatomy, the blood of it is still in there. I like where it's going and I want to see more. Like all good artists, the creators of this series saw those 26 eps and that movie, and said "it's not enough."

That's all the creative soul really starts with. "It's not enough."

And after 26 anime eps and 10 of these live-action eps, nope. Still not enough. :) Bring on season 2!

Having Edward appear at the very end, cemented it for me. They cast her perfectly.
 
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Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
I don't think I could possibly disagree with your sentiments more lol. Still, I'm glad someone had fun with this thing.

"Sentiments" is an interesting word choice. I have no sentimentality about it. Mine is the warmer of the hot takes around here, due to the fact that I have no nostalgia for this series. Delicious compliment sandwich, though. Happy Turkey Day.
 
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