Cowboy Bebop Live-Action Series

[Nandemoyasan]

sen·ti·ment
/ˈsen(t)əmənt/
noun
plural noun: sentiments

1. 1.
   a view of or attitude toward a situation or event; an opinion.

Perfectly normal word choice.

I was thinking more along the lines of
"Sentimental."
of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia.

I haven't got any sentimentality about this series. It's just a cool thing I've discovered, and I don't feel like it's this vaunted avatar of Anime Godliness that other people seem to. And I find Alex Hassell's performance as Vicious to be far more compelling than the Discount Sephiroth he was in the anime, as well. It was also nice to see it all play out in episode 9, rather than just being told that they hate each other, I was shown why.

Show, don't tell. See, rather than only comparing it to the anime, I am comparing it to everything I've ever seen.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

The implication that it's "anime super fans who've liked the anime for [x] years" who dislike the live action is kinda cringe. People who have never seen the anime or people who watched the anime but didn't particularly think much of it can also dislike the live action.

If I were to compare the live action to "everything I've ever seen" instead of just seeing it as "some attempt to make a live action adaptation of an anime that didn't have enough budget", then my opinion of it would only get worse.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

I'm going to try to ignore the fact that you just unironically used "cringe" as an adjective, but also I just got the joke of your username. ?‍?‍?‍

 

[ph14basicbitch]

The real cringe was the friends we made along the way while reading this thread.

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

Partner just found this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464249632322633750

I beg you to read the responses. Twitter is good sometimes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, even John Cho gets it.

https://www.cbr.com/cowboy-bebop-john-cho-netflix-series-expensive-fiction/

Actor John Cho recently termed Netflix's anime adaptation series, Cowboy Bebop, as an expensive work of fanfiction.

In an interview with Still Watching Netflix, Cho discussed his view on how the Netflix live-action remake is "the most expensive work of fanfiction ever," explaining the impact of the original anime on filming the series and how it guided everyone involved to produce what Cho described as "bananas."

It's best to look at this as an (expensive) fan fic that sorta goes bananas, doing it's best to adapt a work.

There's nothing wrong with it doing its own thing, I can appreciate that. It just... Sorta needs to do it good. What's funny is the criticisms aren't just "this is different, ergo it's bad." It's actual technical, structural and tonal aspects that end up harming the series, regardless of it being true to the source material or not. Ironically, the type of thing an amateur fan fic might get wrong in it's zeal to write itself in a compelling and unique way.

John Cho actually plays a damn good Spike when the script and scene direction let's him exhibit his talent. The fight choreography has moments of quality and I can see the Bruce Lee inspiration peeking through. But there's a threadbare quality in some scenes and special effects where you can clearly see the budget or effects just couldn't cover up the problems.

If this were any other anime/story or even just a unique thing on it's own, this whole thing would probably fly under the radar. "Mediocre" and able to get some good views, interest and not be cancelled before it got a second season. But you don't just give a "mediocre" adaption to one of the greatest anime of the 90s. You're just asking for it. Those errors and weaknesses only become more glaring when compared to it's source.

God, they're going to end up doing an FLCL live action adaption next and it's going to fucking hurt my soul.

Partner just found this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464249632322633750

I beg you to read the responses. Twitter is good sometimes.

View attachment 11604

Ngl, I think there's some merit in this thinking, to a degree, in certain contexts and instances. With the advent of the internet, democratizing of social media, youtube, content creator culture, and the one upmanship in online spaces through trying to exemplify intelligent "critique" through dissecting and criticizing content at a maddeningly pointless level... Sometimes there's merit in "turning one's brain off." But.

I think that's more often than not used to give cover for really crap pieces of work that rightfully get pointed out on their crap. Like. I really don't think Cowboy Bebop is being treated unfairly here.

Is this Dragonball Evolution? No, it's honestly fine. It's mediocre. It does some things good while doing some things piss poorly. That's not unusual.

This isn't fandom rage at differences from the source material. Everyone, fans and newcomers are saying this is bad, lol. Fans aren't mad that Vicious appears early and is doing stuff. They're mad because he looks like a shitty cosplay drug addict who's a whiny baby and doing stupid shit. He looks like crap. He's probably the worst looking of all in terms of costume and modern reinterpretation. I don't think that's "we hate it because it's different" and being too critical. This is Cowboy Bebop. It needs to have some tether to the source material other than callbacks and music cameos.

 

[Odysseus]

I think I'm just tired of Nostalgia culture in general. Seeing these soulless cash-grab husks walking around in the skin of things I like is getting old. Between Star Wars, Star Trek, ATLA, Bebop, and a million other things, it's just like, can't we do something new instead? That's not to say it's never been done well, Blade Runner 2049 and Twin Peaks the return are both great. The difference is they don't really rely on Nostalgia, TP actively denies the audience those sorts of moments through most of its run time. It's not like Star Wars which was so desperate to please its audience it failed to tell a cohesive story, and tried to bury that under "REMEMBER LUKE SKYWALKER? REMEMBER HAN SOLO? REMEMBER DEATH STAR? REMEMBER R2D2?" They want you to look at the things you know and not think too hard.

I feel like this Bebop adaptation falls more on the Star Wars side than the Twin Peaks side. I think it's pretty unfair to say people shouldn't compare new Bebop to the anime when so much of the marketing hinges on comparing the two, whether it be the the recreated intro, various scenes, reusing a lot of the music, it's very much been presented as "REMEMBER THIS!?" and that's why I say it's a shambling husk wearing bebop's skin. Like others have said, even ignoring the connection to one of the best shows of the 90's, it's bad in it's own right. Messy tone, bad direction for the actors (some of which, like Jet's, are very good), cheap and ugly sets, terrible villain, and so on. All these issues are attempted to be buried under "Look, it's the thing you remember but real!", all despite the show fundamentally not understanding what made a lot of those elements work in the first place. There's really something to be said about turning a show that thrived in being loose and episodic into a heavily interconnected serialized story. So you end up with something that's not quite the same as the original, but isn't different enough to actually have it's own identity. It's just the thing people liked but worse.

Remember that Robocop remake? No? Me neither.

And I know I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, since the FF7 Remake is basically guilty of a lot of the same things. "REMEMBER MIDGAR?" Was all over the marketing there too. I guess the difference in my brain is that it's actually made by the same people, and the writing isn't embarrassing most of the time.

God this post is a mess.

 

[ultima786]

I think I'm just tired of Nostalgia culture in general. Seeing these soulless cash-grab husks walking around in the skin of things I like is getting old. Between Star Wars, Star Trek, ATLA, Bebop, and a million other things, it's just like, can't we do something new instead? That's not to say it's never been done well, Blade Runner 2049 and Twin Peaks the return are both great. The difference is they don't really rely on Nostalgia, TP actively denies the audience those sorts of moments through most of its run time. It's not like Star Wars which was so desperate to please its audience it failed to tell a cohesive story, and tried to bury that under "REMEMBER LUKE SKYWALKER? REMEMBER HAN SOLO? REMEMBER DEATH STAR? REMEMBER R2D2?" They want you to look at the things you know and not think too hard.

I feel like this Bebop adaptation falls more on the Star Wars side than the Twin Peaks side. I think it's pretty unfair to say people shouldn't compare new Bebop to the anime when so much of the marketing hinges on comparing the two, whether it be the the recreated intro, various scenes, reusing a lot of the music, it's very much been presented as "REMEMBER THIS!?" and that's why I say it's a shambling husk wearing bebop's skin. Like others have said, even ignoring the connection to one of the best shows of the 90's, it's bad in it's own right. Messy tone, bad direction for the actors (some of which, like Jet's, are very good), cheap and ugly sets, terrible villain, and so on. All these issues are attempted to be buried under "Look, it's the thing you remember but real!", all despite the show fundamentally not understanding what made a lot of those elements work in the first place. There's really something to be said about turning a show that thrived in being loose and episodic into a heavily interconnected serialized story. So you end up with something that's not quite the same as the original, but isn't different enough to actually have it's own identity. It's just the thing people liked but worse.

Remember that Robocop remake? No? Me neither.

And I know I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, since the FF7 Remake is basically guilty of a lot of the same things. "REMEMBER MIDGAR?" Was all over the marketing there too. I guess the difference in my brain is that it's actually made by the same people, and the writing isn't embarrassing most of the time.

God this post is a mess.

FF7Remake is an example of nostalgia that isnt just a cash grab. It's love. It's reunion with old friends and memories. It can be done right.

Spoiler: See you, space cowboy

For what it's worth, I hated the stupid twist at the end of Cowboy Bebop with Julia becoming an antagonist. Payoff without much setup. But I really enjoyed the show overall. The anime of course still reigns supreme.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think I'm just tired of Nostalgia culture in general. Seeing these soulless cash-grab husks walking around in the skin of things I like is getting old.

What? You don't like seeing the 90s, early 2000s and your childhood strip mined for profit? Come on

The difference is they don't really rely on Nostalgia, TP actively denies the audience those sorts of moments through most of its run time. It's not like Star Wars which was so desperate to please its audience it failed to tell a cohesive story, and tried to bury that under "REMEMBER LUKE SKYWALKER? REMEMBER HAN SOLO? REMEMBER DEATH STAR? REMEMBER R2D2?" They want you to look at the things you know and not think too hard.

This is very true. I think nostalgia can work in small doses or in simplistic, straightforward works like Looney Toons or something.

....

On that note, Space Jam: A New Legacy is really quite incredible. How Warner Bros managed to fuck THAT up with soulless and needless corporate IP dickwaving, and shoehorned cameos really beggars belief. Had they just played it straight, added some new genuine humor, let the looney toons shine, and just not make it some sort of Ready Player One: WB Edition... It could've been good.

And I know I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, since the FF7 Remake is basically guilty of a lot of the same things. "REMEMBER MIDGAR?" Was all over the marketing there too. I guess the difference in my brain is that it's actually made by the same people, and the writing isn't embarrassing most of the time.

God this post is a mess.

I really don't see any hypocrisy here. S-E violently flipped the table of nostalgia with Chapter 18 and the ending went balls out with subverting expectations. That's not really the same at all. The marketing draws you in by calling back the awe and excitement of seeing the setting of Midgar back in 1997, but there's a lot that's difference and they are clearly teasing things out in ways you would not expect in a straightforward remake. They're walking a line between adaption, remake, nostalgia and subversion.

 

[looneymoon]

I have a lot of thoughts in my head that I might put into words at some point. I'll just keep it simple and clichéd at this point : I just really hate that everything feels so derivative of Marvel movies. We already have way too many of those, why do they have to sprinkle their piss onto every other piece of sci-fi/comic/video game thing :/

I partially blame Joss Whedon and almost regret all my loyal years of being a Buffy fan...

 

[Odysseus]

What? You don't like seeing the 90s, early 2000s and your childhood strip mined for profit? Come on

Look, if Sega wants to start milking the fuck out of Sonic Adventure and SA2 I'm fuckin here for it. Otherwise it's getting a bit old lol. Like, I hate going to the store and seeing walls of cheap plastic Avatar toys and funko pops. Where was that shit when I was actually a kid lol.

This is very true. I think nostalgia can work in small doses or in simplistic, straightforward works like Looney Toons or something.

I think it comes down to how genuine it feels. When there's a genuine reverence for the old work, it feels nice. Like, that Invader Zim movie last year was great. I think it really relies on being more than just "Remember ________?" I mentioned Blade Runner 2049 before, that movie has a small handful of direct callbacks to the first movie, and they are used very effectively. Most of the film is more of a logical follow-up of the original that mostly does it's own thing, just another story in the same universe, so it doesn't feel like a cash grab. Compare that with Star Wars Episode VII, being a straight retread of things we've already done but a little different to sell new merch, or the new Ghost Busters Film which almost does it's own thing until the third act which is directly lifted almost verbatim from the original film, and filled to the brim with "REMEMBER _________?" Like goddamn.

I really don't see any hypocrisy here. S-E violently flipped the table of nostalgia with Chapter 18 and the ending went balls out with subverting expectations. That's not really the same at all. The marketing draws you in by calling back the awe and excitement of seeing the setting of Midgar back in 1997, but there's a lot that's difference and they are clearly teasing things out in ways you would not expect in a straightforward remake. They're walking a line between adaption, remake, nostalgia and subversion.

It also helps that the writing is generally on-par-with, if not outright superior to PS1 FFVII. It feels like they breathed new life into the story rather than retreading it, if that makes sense. I'm really hoping future parts take greater liberties with the original story, I'd like a lot of new things.

I have a lot of thoughts in my head that I might put into words at some point. I'll just keep it simple and clichéd at this point : I just really hate that everything feels so derivative of Marvel movies. We already have way too many of those, why do they have to sprinkle their piss onto every other piece of sci-fi/comic/video game thing :/

I partially blame Joss Whedon and almost regret all my loyal years of being a Buffy fan...

Yeah, I agree. Blame Marvel for just being SO successful I guess lol. Doesn't Netflix Bebop even have a Marvel writer on board? I hate quippy dialogue, it's everywhere these days. I like cheesy old stuff because, despite how corny it was, they were still earnest about it. We're in the irony age I guess. I just finished my rewatch of Bebop, so I can comfortably say there really wasn't all that much "witty snarky banter" between the characters, in the marvel way. It's a lot more natural in the show, which is part of how it can so smoothly transition from comedy to drama. When things are serious, they're serious. It's why Ed and Ein had to go before the last two episodes lol.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

If it gets me a physical release or even a streaming release of Knockin' On Heaven's Door to watch, then isn't it worth it?

Shit's not available anywhere.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

I finished watching 6-10. I liked the episode with "Whitney". It was very much of a "stupid space cowboy hijinks" thing, I found their "update" to Whitney worked for 2021 (tho I think this also could have been done w/Whitney still being a guy). As for the B-Plot, I mean, Spike is Barret's bro, so of course he wants him to see his daughter Marlene's recital, and of course Spike will take on 20 dudes in the background while Barret's doing his proud dad thing. (Oops... did I get the names wrong...?) Tho imo the best thing about the episode was the downplayed presence of Vicious and Julia - I think the live action did those characters poorly and I was pretty sick of seeing them by the end. Their involvement felt like someone watched the anime and decided that Cowboy Bebop was an entire 26 episode series where 2 dudes fought over a (fridged) woman for all 26 episodes, even tho in reality it was more like an on-going sub-plot that was slowly being built up until 25/26 (upon reflection: "slowly being built up" is a really bad way to describe "Vicious appeared in a few episodes and Gren did a lot of heavy lifting for his background"). The last couple eps of the live action felt like unintentional comedic gold with those 2 characters. Julia keeping Vicious locked up in some broiler room as her little pet she plays Russian Roulette with? Hilarious. She's living her best life. You go, girl. Do your Lady MacBeth shit. Don't let Spike get in your way.

Edit: Obviously, this will differ person to person, but I place value in the "space cowboy hijinks" over "building up Julia as Lady MacBeth" because... Welp, I can't believe I'm going to make the comparison I'm about to make, so please stay with me here, but I find the Cowboy Bebop anime somewhat comparable to, sigh, Empire Strikes Back. Luke sees visions of his friends being hurt, and it's a trap, luring him to Cloud City for Darth Vader. Meanwhile, Spike witnesses Jet being hurt in the bar, hears what has happened at the Syndicate from Shin, and ultimately is able to make up his mind to go confront Vicious. (And of course, if you observe the lapels on the Syndicate operatives, there's also the implication that Vicious actually did all of this shit so that Spike would come to him, because Vicious knows Spike that well.) Spike isn't doing it just because of himself, he's also doing it because of the danger posed to his buds, who he's spent 24 episodes with.

The real Bebop was the friends we made alo--

 

[Odysseus]

If it gets me a physical release or even a streaming release of Knockin' On Heaven's Door to watch, then isn't it worth it?

Shit's not available anywhere.

TIL my copy of the movie I got for like $10 at a used movie store years ago is worth like $100 now. Stonks.

I finished watching 6-10. I liked the episode with "Whitney". It was very much of a "stupid space cowboy hijinks" thing, I found their "update" to Whitney worked for 2021 (tho I think this also could have been done w/Whitney still being a guy).

Did they make Andy a girl? Why?

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Andy was "Sir Did Not Appear In This Adaptation".

 

[looneymoon]

Vicious looks like a wizard racist

 

[ph14basicbitch]

By the end of my watch, he was Cryptobro Geralt, Discount Geralt, and AliExpress Lucius Malfoy, so... Wizard racist sounds about right!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Now that you mention it, he does carry that Deatheater-Cryptobro energy and I hate how much that makes sense.

Get me out of this timeline!

 

[Nandemoyasan]

Andy was "Sir Did Not Appear In This Adaptation".

In the episode where Jet goes off to find Udai (which I will admit was severely neutered from the Anime version, wtf), Spike and Faye are supposed to be teaming up to go grab some bounty, any bounty, and instead get drunk and watch Hot Shots on TV while being idiots. It's funny but it's kind of a non-plot.

However, "Cowboy Andy" is seen as a name on the "Leaderboard."

I'm just glad that this story seems written to go on for a while. I really didn't want those 26 eps to end, even though they also have their flaws. Like I said, Vicious is basically Sephiroth without any screen time or story behind him (Other than the wars on Titan which have not been commented on in this version yet, if they're going to talk about them at all...?). I thought he was cool but not giving a character ... well, character, just rubs me the wrong way. Conservation of Detail and all that. Why is Vicious in the story other than to swing a sword and be holding Princess Zelda Julia captive? It needed a rewrite.

Whether the rewrite is any good remains to be seen, honestly. It could go places. I like what they've done well enough.*

*It should be noted that I WFH in an apartment the size of some people's kitchens and I'm bored to tears.**

**Case in Point: I'm wondering why the music from Hotshots is also the Cup Game Music from Suikoden

 

[Lulcielid]

Hollywood Reporter: Netflix has cancelled Cowboy Beboop after one season.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LMAO what??

Guess it didn't do as well as they thought.

They literally said they were working on season 2. Wow.

Whelp. Guess fucking up that ending didn't really do the story any good whatsoever.

 

[Prism]

Viewership-wise, it definitely did well enough to get a second season, which is probably why it appeared to be green lit for a moment. It was probably once Netflix realized that most of those people who watched it didn’t actually enjoy it that things changed. Especially after the mild effect of “hey, they got X stylistic thing kinda like the anime” wears off, all that’s left was the Joss Whedonization of the original. With a horrible ending on top of that.


It’s a shame there won’t be a chance for it to get better, but at the same time, good riddance. When the first trailer dropped, I wanted to look at the bright side of it - I am tired of the “I hate all the new versions of my favorite things” media cycle, after all. But it’s clear that those who were worried that it was the worst parts of Guardians of the Galaxy mixed into some cliche netflix character writing were correct.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Apparently it started off strong with 74 million hours of worldwide viewing during its first week but then the viewership dropped by 59%.

So that was like, trainwreck/curiosity viewers.

I honestly thought it was "good enough" to get a Season 2, but I guess the masses do have more discerning taste. That's... sorta comforting.

Please, studios/corporations. If you're going to try to strip mine my generation's media nostalgia for profit, at least do it with some fucking care and creativity.

No. It's not just free real estate.

 

[Odysseus]

I've been the biggest naysayer in this whole thread, so I should probably say that I don't actually want to dislike these things. I actually do enjoy new takes on things I like when they're done well (though overreliance on nostalgia has gotten very old), and the constant negativity surrounding a lot of media these days gets very tiring. I could just tell this was going to be exactly what I thought it was, made for profit and not passion. Bleh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sometimes the meteor on a collision course with the planet is really just a meteor.