DCFFVII Research Thread

[Shademp]

What I deduce on my own from looking at Page 51 of the DC Complete Guide:

In the ten categories you are ranked for in the Stage Results,

Spoiler

Targets Destroyed, Accuracy Rate, Damage Sustained, Critical Hits, Killchains, Items Used, Limit Break Used, Mako Collected, Times KO'd and Time Expired,

each rank corresponds to an invisible value.

S = 100
A = 50
B = 30
C = 20
D = 10

The sum of your rankings are calculated to form your overall Chapter Ranking, which in turn correspond to your gil reward. The requirements are as follows:

S = 700 or more = 5000 gil
A = 500 - 699 = 2000 gil
B = 400 - 499 = 1000 gil
C = 200 - 399 = 500 gil
D = 0 - 199 = 0 gil


That accounts for the primary chapter rankings. The gil rewards (if any) for Stage Missions remain a mystery to me.

 

[Shademp]

Chapter 2, you can color me confused.

First, let's get the denoted segments clear.

Segment #1: Reeve and Vincent talk. No gameplay.
Segment #2: Gatling Gun (Stage Mission Part 1)
Segment #3: On top of the Shadowfox (Stage Mission Part 2)
Segment #4: Crimson Hound
Segment #5: Pegasus Riders​

The number of Guard Hounds I deduced to be present in Segment #3 were 25. AT MOST, I have been able to spot 23 (and gun down 22 of them). But the total count of available Guard Hounds vary between 20-23 in the dozens and dozens of retries I've done.

I am not able to pin down the varying number of Guard Hounds to mechanics like "if you don't defeat these hounds then these other hounds won't spawn" or something unexpected like "look around you for secret Guard Hounds".

At this point I can only speculate wildly. Is there a glitch? Won't enough new Guard Hounds spawn because the carcasses are too many and have not yet faded away? Does your performance in Segment #2 affect the number of Guard Hounds in Segment #3? Is the guide lying to me about Segment #2 having a maximum of 45 Guard Hounds? Is the number of Guard Hounds that spawn in Segment #3 random?

I AM AT A LOSS!

 

[Shademp]

Decided to fire up DC:International and test out Chapter 2 Segment #3 with the benefits of the Materia Floater and Manasoul to help me easily massacre all the Guard Hounds. Thankfully, nothing about the way this part of the game is choreographed has any visible differences with JORG.

Thanks to the New Game+/EX Hard power boosts I have been able to consistently defeat 24 Guard Hounds! The 25th Guard Hound remains hidden. Or maybe the 25th/70th Guard Hound doesn't exist and the game is just messing with me?!

I have also gained some general wisdom.

Spoiler: Segment #3 (indepth, thus far)

The first, lone Guard Hound is straight forward. It will jump straight at you, pretty much begging to be sacrificed to the gods of FFVII.

The subsequent area is where the game gets treacherous. Four Guard Hounds will come into view and two of them will jump at Vincent. The other two will retreat and one of them can return sometime later, as it will descend from high above to attack Vincent. But the fourth Guard Hound will never return!

In short, your goal must be to not only kill the two of the four Guard Hounds that jump straight at you but to kill ALL FOUR OF THEM. I recommend a Fire shot to make short business of the Guard Hounds that don't immediately attack you.

Two Guard Hounds will then descend from high above, one from the left and one from the right. If one particular Guard Hound from before wasn't killed (one of the four) then it too will fly in for an attack.

When you get to the open area, three Guard Hounds will spawn to your right and twelve Guard Hounds to your left. The three hounds to your right will quickly join the hounds to your left, but I like to defeat those three hounds before they can join the bigger pack.

This is where the 12 + 3 Guard Hounds gather. The Shadowfox will speed up so much that aiming fire balls (your most efficient tool here) becomes challenging. Your fire shots will land to the left of where you are aiming because they don't carry Vincent's momentum on the Shadowfox. Direct your scope some good distance to the right to compensate. Then pray to the gods that your shot will land and defeat many Guard Hounds.

With help of the Materia Floater and Manasoul, clearing the open wasteland of the 12 + 3 Guard Hounds will be no problem. Rain that Lv3+ Fire on your foes.

Once you pass the stone arch, the final two Guard Hounds will come flying towards the Shadowfox. These two hounds will appear even if you did indeed clear the open area of all life earlier.

How many Guard Hounds will come flying at you from over the arch if you completely ignore the fifteen hounds in the open area? Ten. The end result then is that you lose seven targets that otherwise would have spawned.

The short version is this:

- Make sure to defeat all the four Guard Hounds that appear in front of Vincent after the first, lone Guard Hound.

- If you don't defeat enough Guard Hounds on the open area, you won't have enough Guard Hounds spawning and jumping over the arch later on.

- I still don't know where the 25th Guard Hound is.

 

[Shademp]

Version difference! While not researched in full, the choreography of the gatling gun segment in chapter 2 is not the same between JORG and post-JORG.

First, let's para-transcribe the guide from the DC Complete Guide, page 70:

Spoiler

Number of Guard Hounds - Direction of Origin
3 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Left
2 - Right, 2 Left (simultaneously)
3 - Left
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Centre
2 - Centre

These are the exact same values and directions provided in the Bradygames guide. But I have already found that in DC:International after the first three Guard Hounds, three Guard Hounds come from the right and three Guard Hounds come from the left! So instead of 3(C) + 2(R) + 2(L) like in JORG, we have 3(C) + 3(R) + 3(L). This is regardless of difficulty modes.

I am very curious to know the full story here but I can only know for sure about all the discrepancies if I master the gatling gun segment in BOTH the original and the post-original releases. O___O

It would not surprise me if JORG does indeed lack one Guard Hound, meaning that the top result for the Stage Mission would be 69/70. This would be something I imagine they'd have fixed post-JORG. Merely my speculation of course.

If anybody wants to check out page 71 from the Complete Guide and perhaps find the 25th/70th Guard Hound there, be my guest.

 

[Clement Rage]

What I will argue however is that the random elements in Dirge of Cerberus contributes to the feeling people have that they never learned how to play the game. This in turn hinders your enjoyment and sense of progression, leading to a playthrough where you will mostly be shooting wildly and chugging restorative items. For these reasons, I am still inclined to defend the idea of a shield function being added to the game.

Not to derail, but is that significant for anyone not aiming for a perfect run? I had a similar discussion with Hian a few weeks ago, if completely self imposed limitations make the game difficult, I can't really see that as a fault in the game design. In the vast majority of playthroughs, being shot once by bad luck isn't going to impact at all on the experience of the game.

 

[Shademp]

Not to derail, but is that significant for anyone not aiming for a perfect run? I had a similar discussion with Hian a few weeks ago, if completely self imposed limitations make the game difficult, I can't really see that as a fault in the game design. In the vast majority of playthroughs, being shot once by bad luck isn't going to impact at all on the experience of the game.

Admittedly there are different player types out there, so my experience of Dirge of Cerberus may not be universal. But from the very beginning, even when I wasn't doing this perfect/ultimate run I was bothered by the MANY instances where randomness decides if you get injured or not. It enhanced the feeling of me not knowing how to play the game. All those countless times when you can't sneak up on an enemy, when they get to fire first, when bosses rain hellfire upon you and there's nothing you can do etc.

If you don't mind the randomness involved, then that just means you are a different player type and my commentary does not apply to you. It may also be that I'm defying convention by insisting that Dirge of Cerberus should involve more fair skill and strategy than it currently does.

Game design is an alchemy.

 

[Shademp]

I was repeating Ch2 - Segment #2 in DC:International over and over to see what the maximum number of Guard Hounds were. The answer: 46! Not 45!

I achieved said number of kills and then defeated the 24 Guard Hounds that exist in Segment #3.

With that I finally achieved the perfect score in this Stage Mission, albeit in a post-JORG version and without trying to maintain a high accuracy rate. But important knowledge about this challenge has been acquired!

Spoiler

The Gatling Gun segment in Chapter 2 has been a thorn in my side since my very first playthrough of DC. It's one of those challenges I haven't dared to tackle because of how overwhelming it can be to my senses. But it's finally happening. I'm finally memorizing the order in which each group of Guard Hounds appear and where I should pre-emptively position the scope to have the hounds run into my line of fire rather than me frantically aiming in all directions.

It is the same principle as with the Speed Square in FFVII. Memorize and pre-emptively position your aim so that the target moves into your fire and not the other way round (mostly).

Now I can return to JORG and research with greater confidence whether the maximum number of Guard Hounds in Segment #2 is 45 or 46 in that version.

 

[ForceStealer]

Are you using Save States for this or are you really starting the level over 700 times? Sorry if you've already explained your method, haha

 

[Shademp]

Are you using Save States for this or are you really starting the level over 700 times?

I am really starting the levels over hundreds of times.

Because I play on a console and not on an emulator I don't have Save States available. Playing on the PCSX2 isn't an attractive option because often the game will slow down and/or exhibit graphical glitches.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's right, I remember after I got FFXII working I tried DC and half the screen was a disaster.

I just keep digging for SOME way to say, "Oh, well at least he's doing this minute thing to make things easier on himself." And I keep coming up empty handed.

So, not only do you have to hit all those Hounds perfectly in that first part, you have to KEEP doing it if you fail to do so on the later segments...

 

[Shademp]

So, not only do you have to hit all those Hounds perfectly in that first part, you have to KEEP doing it if you fail to do so on the later segments...

Nono, the game is not THAT strict fortunately. Once I complete the Gatling Gun part, which I call Segment/Level #2 of that Chapter, my progress on there gets saved and carried over to the next Segment/Checkpoint/Level.

Just because I fail in Segment #3, when I'm on top of the Shadowfox, doesn't mean that I have to go back and redo the Gatling Gun bit in Segment #2.

Short story: Your progress gets saved from checkpoint to checkpoint, not just from chapter to chapter. =)

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh thank goodness.

You know, for your already-tenuous sanity.

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm one of those people that takes joy in losing. One of the reasons I have so much affection for Dirge is my first bossfight with Weiss, where I ended the fight with 47 HP, 12 rifle bullets, and no money or items left. That was fun.

I think a personal dislike is different from a flaw in game design, though.

 

[Shademp]

After many nerve twisting tries, without focusing too much yet on keeping a high Accuracy Rate, my current record in JORG for number of kills in the gatling gun segment is 43 Guard Hounds. This is when I defeat every Guard Hound that comes into view! Which ones are refusing to pop up so far? The two ones marked in red below.

Number of Guard Hounds - Direction of Origin
3 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Left
2 - Right, 2 Left (simultaneously)
3 - Left
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Centre
2 - Centre

Two Guard Hounds are supposed to emerge from my left side but they never do. My best bet so far is that they will only appear if you are super-quick with killing the preceding Guard Hounds. Page 70 in the DC Complete Guide might have something to say about it.

The JORG version of the Gatling Gun segment for some reason gets my heart pumping way more than the post-JORG counterpart. Fewer retries are allowed before I have to leave the game and let my heart calm down. I speculate this has to do with the camera that is more zoomed in compared to post-JORG, making the motions of the Shadowfox and of the analog-controlled camera more apparent and nauseating.

Unless those missing 2(L) Guard Hounds are in fact 3(L) Guard Hounds, my observations and playthroughs highly indicate that the cap here is 45 and not 46, meaning that the final result for the Stage Mission can get no higher than 69 in JORG.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

At a glance, I don't see anything that speaks to it.

Did you, by chance, record the post-JORG run in which you acquired 70 kills so you can compare it to your best JORG performance?

 

[Shademp]

At a glance, I don't see anything that speaks to it.

Thanks for checking. =)

Did you, by chance, record the post-JORG run in which you acquired 70 kills so you can compare it to your best JORG performance?

That I did. Here are the discrepancies best as I can figure right now with the emerging Guard Hounds.


JORG | International - Direction of Origin
3 | 3 - Centre
2 | 3 - Right
2 | 3 - Left
2 | 2 - Right
2 | 2 - Left
2 | 2 - Right
3 | 2 - Left
2 & 2 | 3 & 2 - Left & Right simultaneously
3 | 3 - Left
2 | 2 - Left
3 | 3 - Right
2 - Left (None in International)
3 | 3 - Right
2 | 2 - Right
2 | 2 - Centre
2 | 2 - Right
2 | 2 - Centre
2 | 2 - Centre
2 | 2 - Centre

As you can see, the elusive 2(L) Guard Hounds aren't needed in the International version, because that edition of this challenge already provided three extra Guard Hounds earlier on.


I can't exclude the possibility of course that in the on-top-of-the-Shadowfox segment the cap is 25 in JORG, compared to 24 post-JORG. My only hope of figuring these things out with *some* certainty is to become absolutely ass-kicking in this Stage Mission.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, JORG comes up three short on the number of Guard Hounds needed (2 from the gatling gun segment, 1 from the Shadowfox segment)? The same amount of Guard Hounds added into the post-JORG versions?

Sounds like the additions were to fix that.

 

[Shademp]

Sounds like the additions were to fix that.

That is very possible. Even if this is the case, I still have many more retries left to learn to maintain a high Accuracy Rate, so maybe along the way I'll discover more.

I figured out one detail about segment #3 at least, in regards to the group of four Guard Hounds that gather early on.

Spoiler

The two hounds within blue rectangles will jump at Vincent almost straight away. The hound within the green rectangle will come back later on, jumping down from the higher canyon walls. The hound within the RED rectangle is the treacherous hound that will be lost forever if you don't shoot it here (or in the very brief window later when it's running alongside the canyon walls).

By shooting the "red" hound here and melee-ing the two that jump at you, you have the benefit of both having aided to your Accuracy Rate and saving up on the necessary MP later on. It is also slightly better to keep the "green" hound alive for later on, since the timing of its appearance will make it easier to maintain a longer killchain in this segment.


*UPDATE: Woohoo! I finally killed 24 Guard Hounds in Segment #3 in JORG!

 

[Shademp]

I feel a frantic need to post even though my progression is slow. Probably because how stressful I find the gatling gun segment to be. I have become very good at consistently defeating the first 20 Guard Hounds while also keeping a high Accuracy Rate. But after that my playthrough breaks down and I haven't been able to find solid spots where I might pre-emptively point the gatling gun for the hounds to run into my fire.

Marked in cyan, these are the first twenty Guard Hounds which I've "mastered".

3 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
2 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Left
2 & 2 - Left & Right simultaneously
3 - Left
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Left
3 - Right
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Right
2 - Centre
2 - Centre
2 - Centre

This IS good progress. It is. But there could be weeks more before I can complete both Segment #2 and Segment #3 in a satisfying manner.

Technically I only need to defeat a minimum of 50 Guard Hounds for an S ranking in the Stage Mission. 59 hounds if I want to assure an inevitable S ranking in the Targets Destroyed category. But with this chapter I don't want to just do "good enough" for All S Rankings. I want to know once and for all how to MASTER this part of the game which I have dreaded in every playthrough since I first laid my hands on this game. Chapter 2 Stage Mission...I will make you my b*tch.

 

[Shademp]

Managed to defeat the Guard Hounds preceding the 2(L) as quick as I will ever do, and STILL the 2(L) didn't appear. Heck, I'll even upload those few seconds showing it!

I loaded an Easy Mode and a Normal Mode save of JORG to test out the gatling gun segment there and see if the 2(L) were missing there too. Indeed they were not present, even when I performed great.

Ergo I conclude that the missing 2(L) Guard Hounds, which should be there according to the DC Complete Guide, is an error in the JORG version. No amount of skill can unlock them.

Assuming that the segment on top of the Shadowfox has at most 24 Guard Hounds, the highest result you can achieve in the "Eradicate the Guard Hounds!" Stage Mission in JORG is 43 + 24 = 67 Guard Hounds.

 

[Shademp]

To grind for perfection or to not grind for perfection...

In the gatling gun segment I killed 43 Guard Hounds with a 23% Accuracy Rate and with 13 Critical Hits to boot. The only downside with my recording of this achievement is that you can tell I am struggling with the second half of the challenge.

I'll probably grind the gatling gun segment some more and then see if I can let go of my pride and just be fine with the current results.

Reminder of S Rank requirements for Chapter 2:

Targets Destroyed - 65 or more
Accuracy Rate - 15% or higher
Damage Sustained - 999 or less
Critical Hits - 15 or more
Killchains - 35 or more
Items Used - 0
Limit Break Used - 2 times or more
Mako Collected - 100%
Times KO'd - 0
Time Expired - 11min 39sec or less

 

[Shademp]

I have just spent half an hour jumping, dancing and fist-pumping the air in joy. I spent the next half hour trying to calm down.

My new result in the Gatling Gun segment:
Accuracy Rate: 30%
Critical Hits: 12
And of course 0 damage and 43 defeated Guard Hounds, as per minimum requirement.

I. AM. FINALLY. FUCKING. DONE. WITH. THE. GATLING GUN. SEGMENT. What felt like the Speed Square on steroids has finally been conquered to a degree that I feel good about.

Spoiler: My Internal Victory Theme Just Now

Backups of Memory Card save and video recordings promptly made. In this challenge it is especially important to keep numerous backups of your Memory Card save, due to the tendency of DC saves to get corrupted.

 

[Shademp]

The research into Segment #3 continues and...the mechanics of the total number of Guard Hounds remain confusing.

Spoiler: Too long did not read about the needlessly complicated third segment of Chapter 2

Recap: Once you get into the open area, before the canyon stone arch, you should have a killchain of 5 if you've played correctly. 6 kills in other words.

On your right side appears 3 Guard Hound and on your left a total of 12 Guard Hounds will spawn. So if you were to kill ALL the Guard Hounds here, your killchain would build from 5 to 20. The highest killchain I've gotten here is 19.

Once you've passed the stone arch, 2 Guard Hounds ALWAYS come flying down towards you. But before the two obligatory Guard Hounds, a rain of hounds will descend depending on how many (or which) of the hounds you killed in the open area.

Now THIS is where the mechanic of total number of Guard Hounds in Segment #3 becomes confusing.

If you kill NONE of the Guard Hounds in the open area, only 10 Guard Hounds will come jumping down at you after the stone arch. In other words, 8 of the 15 Guard Hounds that chased you will pursue and then finally the 2 obligatory/pre-programmed Guard Hounds will come in for the attack.

So of the 15 Guard Hounds that appeared in the open area, 7 of them just vanish. They don't pursue you over the arch.


My first theory was that you need to kill a minimum number of Guard Hounds in the open area in order for enough hounds to spawn when you cross the arch. But this was not consistent with the data. Just now I got a killchain of 18 in the open area (13 kills) and the ONLY Guard Hounds that spawned after the arch was the two obligatory ones!

The only conclusion I can draw is of the two Guard Hounds I didn't kill in the open area, those hounds are pre-programmed NOT to jump towards Vincent when they climb the stone arch. So while a high kill count is recommended, you have to be lucky and kill JUST THE RIGHT hounds that are pursuing you. o___O

Conclusion: 7 of the 15 Guard Hounds that chase you in the open area will be lost forever if you don't kill them before you reach the stone arch.

I might never figure out EXACTLY which of the Guard Hounds I absolutely must kill in time, but so far this is the only interpretation of the game's mechanics that can make sense of what I have observed after countless retries.

EDIT: Actually I'm going to test and figure out exactly which of the Guard Hounds are mandatory to defeat early on. I need to do this research anyway to help DEFINITIVELY confirm the number of Guard Hounds here in JORG.

 

[Shademp]

I am confident now that I've identified which Guard Hounds must be defeated before you reach the stone arch and which you can defeat later.

Observe the following image, which shows the Shadowfox as it enters the open space and drives towards the stone arch, while three groups of Guard Hounds appear. The lower group of three, the middle group of six and the higher/upper group of six.

Spoiler: Guide made in photoshop

- External link

The Guard Hounds which I've marked with a golden hue are the ones that you must eradicate before you reach the stone arch, or the opportunity to add them to your kill count will be gone.

The formations of the Guard Hound groups as shown in the image are accurate to the formations in-game, though be aware that the formation of the upmost group is the most fleeting.

Thanks to knowing which Guard Hounds to prioritize when spamming fire balls it will be way easier to achieve the highest amount of kills in Segment #3 of Chapter 2, which is 24.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The programming of this chapter is so weird.

By the way, in that video you uploaded a few posts above, it does seem like a really obvious spot for two Guard Hounds to come out in that moment where the two who should appear from the left fail to. In my mind, this confirms that the three hounds added post-JORG are to make up for flag bugs that cause a failure to appear here in JORG.