Did AVALANCHE stop using materia or not???

[criesoftheplanet]

In the book FFVII Ultimania Omega, Tetsuya Nomura said that materia use drains life from the planet. On a much smaller scale than mako reactors, but still tapped into the planet's life force and used it to activate the materia. He then said that after the Jenova War AVALANCHE stopped using the materia for that very reason.

However, in AC when Cloud is fighting Kadaj, the Airship comes in and Yuffie is holding a mass amount of materia and says, "..we brought you materia". A rebuttal to this would be that Nomura also said that even though they don't use the materia anymore, they collect it..mainly Yuffie. But if they had committed to not using it why would Yuf even say that line as if she was going to offer Cloud to use them?

Also in AC, we clearly see Nanaki(redXIII) using some kind of magic materia that looks like Ultima on Bahamut Sin. It may have been a limit break...but it really seems as though it's magic.

ANOTHER thing is that in DoC, Vincint uses 3 different materia. So what's everybody's thoughts on this?

 

[looneymoon]

Maybe they think it's ok to use materia in dire situations? A lesser evil of some sort. I'm sure the planet won't mind taking some of its life force if you're in desperate need to defeat a threat, like Sephiroth or something.

Plus, materia is basically a construct that makes up the battle system in FFVII. It'd feel a little weird playing a FFVII game without using materia in some way. Though, as I'm currently playing DoC it seems that materia use is highly unnecessary anyway.

To be quite honest, I think the developers don't remember alot of the stuff they say.

 

[Max Payne]

I still think this "materia harms the planet" angle contrived and stupid.

If that were the case we would have learned about it in FF7, just seems shoehorned in at this point.

 

[Tetsujin]

Also in AC, we clearly see Nanaki(redXIII) using some kind of magic materia that looks like Ultima on Bahamut Sin. It may have been a limit break...but it really seems as though it's magic.

It's a common misconception that it was RedXIII doing that green shit, but that was actually Barret's charged shot.

 

[criesoftheplanet]

[quote author=Tetsujin link=topic=242.msg5508#msg5508 date=1231011995]

Also in AC, we clearly see Nanaki(redXIII) using some kind of magic materia that looks like Ultima on Bahamut Sin. It may have been a limit break...but it really seems as though it's magic.

It's a common misconception that it was RedXIII doing that green shit, but that was actually Barret's charged shot.
[/quote]


Wow I had not clue it was the charge shot! And yeah I think that they'd think it was ok to use the materia if needed too, and that also using materia in DoC is not needed whatsoever. There's a lot of random inconsitancies and contradictions that are said by the creators. Sometimes it seems like the fans definitely know more!

 

[Shademp]

I thought that Cloud said something in the original FFVII about Materia harming the planet, but just noticed that he didn't. Oh well, I'll post anyway what he said in the beginner's basement in Junon since I already went through the trouble to write down his dialogue.

"There's a limit to how much materia you can have. Since we're fighting for the life of the Planet, it goes against my beliefs carrying too much Materia. Either way, I don't really care, but...I'll leave it up to you (the player). That's why, the amount of Materia that we can have is limited to 200...
When you have too much Materia, you need to dispose of some. If you don't, you can't take on any more. So, ditch some Materia before that happens... Ahem, I mean, give them back to the Planet."

Seems like it is against his beliefs to carry too much Materia because it is...inconvenient? But the first time I read this (years ago) I thought he meant that Materia MUST be returned to the Planet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually, people are misunderstanding the quote, like a lot of other quotes in the Reunion Files. First off, it wasn't the Ultimania Omega that Nomura said that, it was the Reunion Files.

What he said was this:

Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore, because it drains the life of the planet. That means, they don't use materia, either. Yuffie collects them, but that's just because Yuffie lives to collect things.

That doesn't say materia drains the life of the planet, that just explains that because Cloud and the others have vowed never to use mako again because it hurts the planet, they also decide they aren't going to use materia as well. The main reason I think they don't use materia is not because it "hurts" the planet, but out of symbolism and respect. It's never stated materia hurts the planet. However, they probably believe selfishly using materia from the planet is something they shouldn't do. They want to respect the Planet's life, and thus only use their materia out of necessity like..when the planet itself is in danger (like in DC).

And yes, while not using materia, Yuffie does still like to collect materia.

Btw hitoshura, could you look at page 86 again and tell us what it says in Japanese, because something tells me it probably conveys that meaning better and the english translation just sucks

 

[Tetsujin]

Well, materia is made out of mako energy. Natural materia does seem to occur, but most of it seems to be industrially manufactured by Shin-Ra.
I guess they don't wanna use something that was made by draining the planet's energy (or if they have to, they do it rarely).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Exactly, that's why I say it's symbolic and out of respect for the planet. It has nothing to do with materia draining or harming the planet, because....

It doesn't.

 

[Strangelove]

Btw hitoshura, could you look at page 86 again and tell us what it says in Japanese, because something tells me it probably conveys that meaning better and the english translation just sucks

It says exactly the same thing

I was thinking what Tetsujin said. Since most of the materia people used was artificially made by Shinra, that's why they don't want to use it.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5521#msg5521 date=1231017865]
Exactly, that's why I say it's symbolic and out of respect for the planet. It has nothing to do with materia draining or harming the planet, because....

It doesn't.
[/quote]

I find that just as stupid. People endangering the planet and trying to kill you, using power endowed to you by the planet should be a given when the necessity arises.

 

[Makoeyes987]

....Hence the reason materia was used in Dirge of Cerberus and FFVII.

 

[Max Payne]

But not by Avalanche in Dirge of Cerberus.

No record of use by anyone but Vincent.

So shut SE bot.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well DC isn't from AVALANCHE's perspective, it's from Vincent, so we'd never know to begin with.

And to correct you, Yuffie uses materia in DC when Vincent gets impaled by Rosso in the Shinra Manor. She uses some type of "flash" materia in her shuriken to distract Rosso and thus whisk Vincent to safety.



See the two green magic materia? Vincent isn't the only one using materia in DC.

Either way, they kinda don't need to since they're strong enough on their own, but just in case, they DO have it if they need to.

So really, nothing's changed at all in terms of materia. And materia doesn't hurt the planet.

 

[Max Payne]

How well is SE paying?

And that still is no excuse for them not using power that they could have easily wiped the DG out with.

 

[Masamune]

If Materia usage doesn't actually harm the Planet, then it's stupid that AVALANCHE abstain from using it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

*face palm*

It's principle. How can you dictate it's stupid when they're making a conscious choice based on their own subjective experience of saving the Planet? Their fight, their choice. They choose not to use materia unless its absolutely necessary (i.e. Vincent about to be decapitated) because they feel that they can fight on their own.

I guess it's stupid then for Cloud to abstain from using the Buster Sword and switch to his own sword.

It's like once one inconsistency has been debunked, people want to find something else to complain because the previous one was lost

 

[Masamune]

Makoeyes, the principle would be if materia DOES deplete the Planet. Since it doesn't, there isn't actually any principle behind not using it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There is principle, and its their choice. They don't want to constantly rely on materia because they feel they can do without it, and when they need to, they DO use materia, since...they have.

You're looking for inconsistency where none exists.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5539#msg5539 date=1231023876]
There is principle, and its their choice. They don't want to constantly rely on materia because they feel they can do without it, and when they need to, they DO use materia, since...they have.[/quote]

I think Bahamut SIN might disagree with ye there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're ignoring the fact that Yuffie offered Cloud materia to fight Kadaj.

And when Vincent used materia in DC.

And when Yuffie used materia to save Vincent in DC.

They use materia when they want to, and don't use materia when they want to. It's their choice. What's so weird about that?

 

[Masamune]

I'm not ignoring any fact. I'm proving an inconsistency that you scoffed at moments ago.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5541#msg5541 date=1231024149]They use materia when they want to, and don't use materia when they want to. It's their choice. What's so weird about that?
[/quote]

So a 50ft tall dragon tearing up the city doesn't require materia?

 

[Makoeyes987]

There is no inconsistency. All you're pointing out is a choice you subjectively don't get or agree with.

They felt they could handle Bahamut Tremor in Edge by themselves and they did. They beat it. They clearly didn't lose to it or get injured. Cloud and the others beat it without materia.

So what's the problem? They did it. And when they feel they need materia they use it.

 

[Max Payne]

It's a stupid picking and choosing attitude that could cost someone a life.

They didn't have these absurd principles in the past to cripple their effectiveness in battles.

Facepalm all you want, it's points there chief.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How do you know it's going to cost someone their life when they've won all their battles with this symbolic choice thus far, AND have saved one of their comrade's life when they needed to? If they're strong enough to handle it, they've clearly thought of the consequences.

Furthermore they did have principles regarding materia in FFVII such as not allowing Shinra to nuke the huge materia to stop Meteor, because it'd be a waste of sacred planet energy that could be utilized in the fight against Sephiroth and then returned to the planet. And Cloud even says that he believes in not carrying too much materia and giving back the ones they don't use back to the planet.

You're looking and trying to scrutinize a non-existent inconsistency when it comes down to choice. Cloud chooses not to use the Buster Sword after FFVII. Yuffie chooses not to keep track of the materia collection after FFVII. Vincent chooses to use materia in DC.

Fighting involves choices, and if they know what they're doing and can handle it, then its their responsibility. When the bogus premise of materia hurting the planet was shot down, you're trying to jump on something else that has absolutely no inconsistency when its just a matter of choice that's been proven to be effective.

They didn't use materia against Bahamut Tremor. So what? They still kicked its ass and won.