Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I'm really not sure what Vincent's supposed to do that miraculously interjects between two consenting adults in a professional and personal relationship choosing to go forward with their research and utilizing their child in said research.

It's not like CPS or any other oversight body exists in FFVII. The highest authority that could do anything is Vincent's employer and they're greenlighting the whole thing. Lucrecia isn't his property. Hojo doesn't answer to him, so what's a young bodyguard Turk supposed to do? Kill Hojo? Kidnap Lucrecia? Submit his resignation in protest? What is he supposed to magically do that's the proper and least selfish course of action that ceases the Jenova Project and saves Lucrecia from herself?
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I'm curious: what do you think he could have done?

That would be highly context dependent, and we don't know the context. Vincent certainly thinks should have done something, but who knows if he's right. It's a similar mindset to the modern Turks in some ways, though. 'My bosses are doing horrible things while relying on me to secure their safety. If only someone could do something about this. '

And so Turk morality convo 34 begins...

There is no indication whatsoever that the Turks can be compelled to do anything by Shinra. Across all the games , not once can Shinra make the Turk do anything they don't want to. They're not treated at all like they're on thin ice, they're given super sensitive missions with no supervision and trusted to complete them. Shinra has no leverage at all, because all the other Turks have disappeared, they're out of reach. There's no pressure to apply, and even when there was (Veld captive) that still wasn't enough to make the Turks do anything they didn't want to do.

Out of universe, in the OG they were loveable scumbags with some personal loyalty. They wanted to keep them around in the Compilation, but had to walk a tightrope, because if you make them too evil, then sooner or later the more ethical characters would have to eliminate them, but if the properly reform, they lose their edge and what makes them popular. So they became people fighting from the inside.

The problem being, they now have no reason to commit all the atrocities that the plot needs them to do, while obviously having the power to not do them if they really wanted to. They're not afraid of Shinra, they're not really loyal to Shinra, they don't think Shinra is some kind of greater good. They're just...doing all these things for no apparent reason, while having the will, knowledge and power to do otherwise.

Remake even gave us cutaways of the Turks not wanting to do all the things they do. Why do they then do them anyway? We have no idea.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Again. Shinra *owns* the world. There's no way of getting away from that. If Shinra finds reason to want someone dead, like for oh... *treason*, then that person will be dead. And the Turks... have definetly committed treason in Before Crisis.

At he only reason the Turks managed to commit treason in BC and get away with it was because they had Rufus somewhere *no one* else in Shinra knew and essentially threatened to kill Rufus if Shinra tried to stop them. The joke on Shinra being the Rufus was helping the Turks keep ahead of Shinra... Even then, Scarlet and Heidegger were looking everywhere for the Turks with orders to kill them when they found them.

What caught Tseng, Rude and Reno was that Rufus got found by Shinra and then the Turks had no leverage on Shinra. It was only Rufus faking a bunch of records that kept them from being executed. Which was like... two months before the time of the OG...

And in Remake... the Turks answer to Heiddegar... who has tried to kill them in the past and would love an oppertunity to do so again. And the Turks fundamentally don't want to die. Heiddegar would *love* for them to put a toe out of line so he finally can get the go-ahead to kill them. The only reason Tseng, Rude and Reno aren't dead is because Rufus vouched for them, but currently, Rufus isn't in control of Shinra, so he can't really do a whole lot.

It is... rather interesting timing (probably *not* planned, but who cares about that) that the Turks only start half-ignoring what Shinra wants in the OG *after* Rufus becomes president. Who in the Compilation is their backer. So it does fit in pretty well with them not... acting out... while they don't have someone in Shinra watching their backs higher up the command chain.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
Yeah I have a hard time believing that any intervention on Vincent's part would not have landed him more or less right where he ended up: bleeding out on a floor. And it still would have most likely been for nothing because the only thing that would actually stop the experiment from happening would be for him to either convince Lucrecia not to do it (which he tried) or, like...forcibly restrain her somehow? Kidnap her? Which doesn't seem like a great plan?

It's possible to feel guilty about not doing something even when there wasn't any plausible course of action. That's really what survivor guilt is. There may be more things he wishes he had tried, but they probably would not have worked. And he probably didn't do them in the first place because he knew they had a low likelihood of working, or he didn't know at the time how high the stakes were going to get. Looking back, he knows the path he chose was a failure, but that doesn't mean it didn't seem like the most pragmatic option at the time. Anything he could have done would have been a gambit: if he went rogue and got himself killed/executed, it wouldn't do anything to stop the project. If he got Lucrecia to go rogue, he would endanger her as well. So it seemed like the best course of action at the time to say, "Ok, I guess I am going to let her do this thing I can't stop her from doing, but I will stick around to make sure she stays safe through it as best I can." Obviously, that didn't work out, so it makes sense for him to wish, in hindsight, that he had done literally anything else, even if those things would have been a total hail mary at the time.

I guess the remaining option would have been some kind of crazy suicide mission to absolutely sabotage the project beyond repair, but who even knows what that would take or if it was something he was capable of doing?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
There's really no *stopping* the Jenova Project at Nibelheim. And that's just the S Project. There's an other project also involving human experimentation running concurrently somewhere else: the G Project. And Gast is... somewhere else... overseeing the whole thing (and running into Ifalna). Crisis Core reveals that neither Hojo or Hollander knew where Jenova was at this time *either*. It seems they were just given samples of her to work with while the main body was somewhere else.

So yeah, there's a *very* slim chance Vincent might have somehow prevented Hojo from wrecking Lucrecia and Sephiroth's life... but *someone* somewhere would have ended up with Jenova Cells in them as a baby which is the real problem. Shinra wanted to bring the Cetra back using Jenova... and it seems they were simply going to keep trying until they succeeded.

The Jenova Project is too big for any one person to really stop by this point...
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
We've already seen what happens when the Turks are hunted by Shinra in BC. They're perfectly fine, they're only coming into conflict with Shinra because they're going after the control materia. They run rings around them at every turn, and when they're finally pinned into a sadistic choice they wriggle out of that too and fake it. They're perfectly capable of disappearing when they need to, which we know because most of them did.

BC and remake go quite far out of their way to present the Shinra military as essentially bumbling and the butt of slapsticky jokes. Hard to see where this threat comes from.

We get quite a lot of screentime around the pillarfall, absolutely nothing in anyone's manner indicates that the Turks are or feel under threat. They're barely taking it seriously. They're feeling a bit bad about it, but there's not a hint of coercion or feeling under pressure, they're not saying ' we have to do this,or else' or anything similar.

When Tseng is making excuses, he doesn't bring up anything like that.

Heidegger doesn't indicate that this is some kind of test or threat, he seems absolutely confident that they will get it done with no issues. Anything else is headcanon. Bringing down the pillar is about the last mission you give people with dubious loyalty, because if they turn their coats, then you now have a gang of extremely dangerous people that know all your most sensitive secrets and vulnerable points on the other team.

The people that hunt fugitives for Shinra are the Turks. Both incarnations of AVALANCHE, and Genesis do fine.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I think you're right, which means all of the parts of Shinra Inc. that interest me have been surgically removed. If we're going 'these five people have skills, everyone else is just fodder' then the Shinra Inc parts of the game just become... empty space to me.

It doesn't serve the Turks either, because if they don't own their scumminess, then whatever redemption they go through is hollow . 'Yeah, we did it, here's why' has storytelling potential, but if their atrocities are forced on them by some mysterious force that goes unexplained and never applies any other time, the dramatic potential of them changing their minds is gone.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
"I kinda wonder if Vincent thinks he and Lucrecia had a kid together, and then Lucrecia left him and married Hojo, and then used Vincent's kid for an experiment... While saying Vincent doesn't have right to get involved to Vincent's face."

If that were what "actually" happened, it would make her an even worse person than she already is.

I've pretty much always thought this is what happened. I promise my enormous disdain for Lucrecia didn't emerge from thin air.

Anything else is headcanon.

You can say "anything else is headcanon," but at a certain point we don't need every last detail spoonfed back to us on a chart to see how a relationship exists between them. There's plenty about Cloud's messed-up-but-creepily-accurate recollection we could always synthesize from what else was known even if we didn't have it always spelled out in a book.

Similarly, we know the Turks were given orders they weren't happy with and they regretted carrying them out. If we ask "Why'd they do that?" and conclude "No reason whatsoever exists" despite all that we know BC and the rest of the Compilation provides, we're not holding up our end of the storytelling arrangement.

Reasons that aren't solely based in headcanon exist if one is simply willing to apply their full knowledge of the subject matter. Not doing so is kind of a bizarre choice approaching deliberate misreading, isn't it?
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
I'm not a big fan of the "they were acting under orders so we can't hate them" sentiment, but I also don't know how they can be redeemed later if they don't at least feel that there's something wrong with the act now. It'd be a bit sudden to wake up one day and realize it's wrong, though I suppose the end of the world can do that to people. Still feels like a stretch though.

I think acting on orders is a big part of it, but I also wonder if they would have gone ahead with it if Cloud hadn't shown up and triggered their petty sense of pride. They were reluctant till that point. If they had reached the top without issue, they might have time to think through it, but instead they ran into someone they really hated to lose against on the way and literally went "screw this". While one could sort of excuse the part about being under orders, I don't think orders were the only reason they acted as they did.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
You can hate them all you like. But that doesn't change the fact the Turks are human and do carry humanity, even when they do bad things. They do feel torn, guilty, hesitant and all the other feelings most humans feel when clearly going against their own sense of right and wrong.

For better or worst, they follow Shinra orders and suffer the internal cognitive dissonance that follows. They're not inherently evil villains like Hojo and Sephiroth. That's what makes them different and unique in FFVII as antagonists.

And in the end, they do realize the truth and try to help rebuild the world post Meteorfall. Obviously, just like with people, it's not going to get them any brownie points with everybody they've hurt but they aren't trying to make things better or atone to be liked either.
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Just to clarify, I don't hate them at all lol, I actually love them. That "internal cognitive dissonance" is what makes them relatable. Where I get a bit disturbed is a segment of the fanbase making them sound like blameless good people which they aren't, and never were in the OG.

That's how I interpreted what Clement was saying about the writing (correct me if I've misunderstood). That it was done to make them seem "good" for no reason other than possibly fan popularity points. Personally, I think it's more of fanbase reaction. I didn't think the writing made them seem like good people. Just not entirely bad people, which has always been their characterization and kinda what many fans still like them for?
 
I think it's very easy for evil to creep up on people. First of all, while Shinra is evil in its methods and seems to know that mako extraction is killing the planet, it has provided some enormous boons to humanity: heat, light, power, progress, peace. Secondly, as Red XIII observes in TOTP, Shinra takes people while they're still very young and malleable and indoctrinates them. Thirdly, one of the qualities a good Turk needs to have is the ability to think for themselves and make decisions on the fly. The Shinra Middle Manager and his cronies in the Remake are not saints but they are averagely good people; they are ambitious, but they also sincerely believe in Shinra and that gives them the courage to stand up to Barret. Would you have the courage to stand up to a ginormous man with a gun arm spouting terrorist propagand? I wouldn't. My point is that many people in their world really believe in Shinra. It's not that they 100% trust Shinra, but they believe in what they perceive as its goals. Most of us may not 100% trust our government, but we still believe in the liberal democratic project.

So it's very easy to take an impoverished, idealistic teenager, give them some authority, give them a gun, and then use them to commit an ever-escalating scale of atrocities in the name of peace light and freedom. Each small evil such a person commits makes the next, slightly greater evil easier to carry out. The surviving Turks are all in their late twenties-early thirties by the time of the Remake's events; inevitably, a great deal of cynicism has set in, their moral compass is badly distorted, and at the end of the day, they adhere to what they know, to who they are.

Anyway, it's not as if there's no historical precedent for committing such an atrocity in real life. What about the pilots and bombadiers who nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Japan was on the point of surrendering anyway, but the USA wanted to show off its A-bombs.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
"Deliberate misreading?" Is it that hard to believe that I'm sincere?

You can say "anything else is headcanon," but at a certain point we don't need every last detail spoonfed back to us on a chart to see how a relationship exists between them. There's plenty about Cloud's messed-up-but-creepily-accurate recollection we could always synthesize from what else was known even if we didn't have it always spelled out in a book.

These are core motivations of decently important characters here, it's not some irrelevant detail. 'Anything else is headcanon' isn't some kind of slur. I love headcanon. BCs final scene doesn't exist in isolation, it's part of a tapestry. Part of that tapestry is the scummy stuff. I don't have to overlook things like Scarlet trusting Tseng with her personal safety in Gongaga (strange behaviour for someone that actively wants him dead and think he's a traitor, no?) or the fact that they spend significant amounts of time enabling Hojo by kidnapping specimens for him.

I'm not leaving anything out by counting the scummy stuff as character relevant as well as their qualities. I'm not overlooking the end of BC. I'm also not overlooking everything else either. It's not some crazy off the wall idea to say that it doesn't make sense to send people you don't trust on a supersensitive mission like the pillar.

Are there things left unsaid? Sure. There' plenty left unsaid about, for instance, Lucrecia, but no one seems to have a problem viewing her negatively regardless of Dirge pretty clearly aiming for a sympathetic portrayal. So why do I have to fight so hard just to air this kind of thing, and assumed to be in bad faith when I do?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Just to clarify, I don't hate them at all lol, I actually love them. That "internal cognitive dissonance" is what makes them relatable. Where I get a bit disturbed is a segment of the fanbase making them sound like blameless good people which they aren't, and never were in the OG.
I would say the same thing about Avalanche. Half the point of the "Case of" novellas is that Avalanche is not blameless and about several members of Avalanche learning how to live with themselves with that idea in mind. Barret and Tifa in particular feel... really guilty about what they did in Midgar and how they go about making up for that is a huge part of their character arcs post-OG.

Part of why the Turks can be the protagonists of BC and not even be villain protagonists is why Avalache can be the protagonists of the OG. People are complicated and have complicated motives for doing really bad shit. The Turks don't think they can go against Shinra and come out of it alive... so they do Shinra's dirty work for them. Heck, even if they decided not to, *someone else* who doesn't care half as much about it as the Turks do *would* still end up doing the dirty work. The Turks hypothetically deciding not to do Shinra's dirty work really doesn't *do* anything... it just reveals where their true loyalties lie which would give Shinra every reason to kill them.

Avalanche doesn't think they can't make Shinra stop using the mako reactors without... a lot of collateral damage on people who had absolutely nothing to do with deciding to use mako energy. They're just.. *there* when the reactors gets bombed.

Like... both groups of people feel like they're stuck in situations where they *have* to do bad stuff to get what they want (not get killed vs stop Shinra from using mako). One is just sanctioned by the government. The other isn't. I don't think the argument is that the Turks have the moral high-ground; they don't. It's more than Avalanche doesn't have the moral high ground *either*. And then the world order effectively collapsed and both the Turks and Avalanche got second chances to decide what they really want to do as an organization. Fortunately, most of them picked the "we're *not* doing the worst of what we did before" options. In fact, one of the things that weird people out in TKAA about Shinra and the Turks is that... they're *not* doing stuff the Turks used to do anymore. They're doing things like... organizing construction projects, making sure the scientists working on researching geostigma painkillers really are doing that and not something else, making sure no one offs Rufus, etc.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So why do I have to fight so hard just to air this kind of thing, and assumed to be in bad faith when I do?
You're not being assumed to act in bad faith. I asked a sincere question about your approach because I wanted you to maybe explain it to me in a way I actually understand. You say "I'm not leaving anything out," and I definitely think you believe that -- but you also definitely are, so it's confusing.

Sorry we have such a habit of misunderstanding one another.
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
In fact, one of the things that weird people out in TKAA about Shinra and the Turks is that... they're *not* doing stuff the Turks used to do anymore. They're doing things like... organizing construction projects, making sure the scientists working on researching geostigma painkillers really are doing that and not something else, making sure no one offs Rufus, etc.

One of the things I really liked about TKAA is how it shows the way different Turks are reacting to their new roles. I particularly loved how bored Elena was with not killing things, and how she struggled with not shooting people when she felt it was necessary. Plus that all of them bar Elena seem to have a soft spot for Evan, but express that by like - kidnapping him via helicopter and bugging his private conversations. The sense that they still want to be feared but don't necessarily want to do things that make people fear them as well. I thought it was really well done.


...I realise this is hopelessly off topic to the thread now though :mon:
 
That's very true. I personally got the impression (others might have got a different one) that Elena had no patience for persuading people with reason and winning hearts. In her view, force and fear are the most efficient ways to get things done. The thing is, she's right to be furious with the thieves; they might think they're stealing from Shinra, but they're actually stealing from the sick. When she realises they're stealing for the sick, she either leaves extra medicine for Vits or she gives him instructions on how to use it properly (I can't remember which). Ultimately, the Turks are people for whom the ends totally justify whatever means they use to get there. In the same way, "helping" Evan involves doing quite a lot of things to and with him that he neither approves or nor wants!
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It is interesting that it seems the main Turk heading up construction efforts is Reno. First in Edge and then the last we see of him in TKAA is him helping Icicle Inn rebuild (after Kadaj burned it down). And he's the one who in the OG dropped the Plate on Sector 7. So while it's not *said* anywhere that he regrets destroying Sector 7... his regrets would go a long way to explaining why he's so on board with making sure reconstruction does get done.

Shinra in general post-meteorfall is less of a power company and more of a construction company. The WRO seems to have the military power now. Although... well... the local populice seems to think the WRO is just a front of Shinra and they're not even that wrong given who is running it and funding it.

@LicoriceAllsorts It is mentioned in TKAA that getting the remnants of the Shinra Science department to develop the Geostigma painkillers was originally Elena's idea. Which is why she's the one who's so protective of the project in general. And is *really* ticked when people steal stuff from it.

I think the Turks are "the ends justify the means" types of characters... but with an asterisk. Some ends are not worth the means needed to acheive them and the Turks *do* know that. Many of the Shinra executives do not. So there's a tension when the Turks and the Shinra executives don't agree on if the end really is worth the means.
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
I also think that even when they're wanting/trying to do good, their moral compass is just really warped. I found one of my favourite quotes from TKAA:

"Yes, sir. Understood," Elena replied smartly, although she neither understood nor agreed with the orders coming over the phone.
Reno had let Fabio off with just one measly punch. Maybe the lowlife didn't need to die, Elena thought, but they could have at least given him something to remember. A month in the hospital, say. This was for Shinra, and for the Turks.
"What's going to happen to me?" Thropp moaned from his chair. He'd been tied there since yesterday. Dried blood flaked off his cheeks.
"You'll die, probably," said Elena.
"Please let me go. I was in the Shinra military, too. We're comrades, ain't we?"
She knew not to give losers like him a second chance. Left alone, he could go on to blemish Shinra's name somewhere else. Elena took a pair of leather gloves from her back pocket and pulled them on, facing Thropp.
"What's going on here?"
She spun around. Tseng was standing at the door.
"I..." Elena bit back the rest of her words. I can't stand this. She ducked past her boss and ran outside.

Girl was about to murder a man with her hands, disobeying a direct order, because she knows it's the right thing to do. The medicine theft side of it seems almost secondary. This guy fucked with Shinra and that means a death sentence. She cannot deal with being told otherwise. After the wacky Turks in AC I really was not expecting this level of nuance from this book and I love it so much!
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I love how it's Elena who's most like the "old Turks" in TKAA. It makes sense considering that she joined pretty much after things start going to shit. She would have had exposure to their training, but not their experience, not even the plate fall. She has to deal with having been taught one thing while the reality has changed to another. And she's not in any position to oppose everyone more senior than herself. It must be quite a struggle on her part, even if it's for the better sometimes.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
No one thinks AVALANCHE are blameless, least of all AVALANCHE themselves. But there is a difference between accidentally killing bystanders as a regrettable consequence of a bombing and intentionally pressing a button to annihilate a town in full knowledge and intent of the consequences. Cloud handed over the black materia with a broken mind, Reno pushed that button with a sound one.

Dirge leans pretty heavily towards a sympathetic depiction of Lucrecia, TTM, but you're happy to hold her in enormous disdain with no issues. Why is it such a problem when I take note of other characters much greater sins? But the fandom works so much harder when the Turks reputations are at risk.

We have two depictions of the pillarfall, both of which have ample opportunity to show pressure being applied to the Turks in cutaway scenes (the way they do with Reeve.) But they don't. Why not? Neither version has any indication that 'feeling under threat' is any part of the Turks motivations, and both have many things that work against it.

If they truly are under such great threat, it doesn't even make sense to use the Turks for this mission. But between 'maybe the Turks are not on as thin ice as we think' and 'Shinra Exec decisions make no sense' we pick option A.

'It's suicide to stand up to Shinra' But there's a bunch of thriving resistance movements. Fuhito's AVALANCHE was only stopped by the Turks themselves.

'Someone else would do it' Who, though? The Turks are the only ones that are trusted with Shinra's deepest secrets, on multiple occasions we see SOLDIER intentionally kept away from Shinra's darkside in both CC and BC. The Shinra military are only show to accomplish things by leaving very indiscreet giant piles of corpses behind. We know of no one else with the appropriate skillset, and while it's probable such people exist, it's likely they would be at the very least less effective.

'They're under threat' From who? How? The military are not a match for them except pinned down at overwhelming odds, which is very difficult to do. They have the skills to disappear, which we know because most of them do. There's so many things that don't work, like Scarlet trusting someone she hates and wants to kill with her personal security in Gongaga, despite a significant risk that he will just kill her... IF she doubted his loyalty.

'they're indoctrinated from a young age to be evil' True for Cissnei, but the others have all kinds of varying backgrounds outside of Shinra, like being champion hunters in Mideel, working for Midgar gangs and being top military cadets

Post Meteorfall, there are changes, but there's also other things. The AVALANCHE crew change their ways, Cloud becomes a delivery driver, Barret goes drilling for oil, Tifa goes back to bartending.

The Turks are still the Turks. Rufus puts a Shinra logo on the memorial to the meteorfall dead. When this is criticised, his response is not 'that's fair, I'll remove the logo' its 'send the Turks to silence my critics'. They want to be redeemed, but don't want to change. Rufus wants to be trusted, but he doesn't want to stop lying. When meds are stolen, they go right to punishment beatings first and ask questions later. When they feel Rufus needs to talk to Evan, they could ask and then accept a refusal, or put him on the phone. Instead they violently kidnap him. They're building a monument...but they're also forcing people to work on it against their will.

What am I leaving out?

I don't dislike them, by the way. I think there's a writing problem because they have to play conflicting roles that don't fit together.

Edit: The execs are repeatedly shown not to have that kind of power, as shown by the means they use to deal with AVALANCHE. They either ineffectually throw the infantry at them or use giant robots. Super black ops people are not in evidence, the only exception is DG, which come with a host of other problems.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
The two big defining moments for the Turks in BC are the Nibelheim "cover up" and the Corel Reactor bombing. Nibelheim because it's something they *really* do not want to be a part of and help do (to the point they flat out tell their boss it's too dirty for them to do).... and their boss pretty much agrees with them and says that it's okay if they don't want to do it, he'll do it himself given he's already done worse stuff in the past. Look here towards the end for that conversation: https://turkleader.tumblr.com/bcep13

At Corel, that's when the Turks find out Elfe, the leader of Avalanche is really Veld's daughter with amnesia (due to a bunch of Hojo experimentation). And instead of turning on him or reporting it to Shinra, they wonder *why* he's not going after her because he's her dad. And he was pretty much *their* dad and they learned a ton from him so the Turks will be okay if he leaves. https://turkleader.tumblr.com/bcep17
 
"Dirge leans pretty heavily towards a sympathetic depiction of Lucrecia, TTM, but you're happy to hold her in enormous disdain with no issues. Why is it such a problem when I take note of other characters much greater sins? But the fandom works so much harder when the Turks reputations are at risk."

C'mon, Clem, you know why. We love the Turks and we don't love Lucrecia. Why we love the Turks and not Lucrecia is the interesting question. Still, Lucrecia has her fans. Even Hojo has his fans!

I don't think that when SE first made this game, they had any idea the Turks (and Rufus) would turn out to be as hugely popular as they are. That's the root of the writing problem. If they'd forseen it, they would probably have written the pillar scene differently. They couldn't make any drastic changes in the Remake, but they did share out the blame equally between Rude and Reno. I suspect we'll find the two expressing more remorse this time around, and thus annoying Elena with their 'weakness'.

"'they're indoctrinated from a young age to be evil' True for Cissnei, but the others have all kinds of varying backgrounds outside of Shinra, like being champion hunters in Mideel, working for Midgar gangs and being top military cadets." None of this precludes them having done bad things even before they joined Shinra. I imagine the Turks selection process weeds out budding saints; to join the Turks you have to be psychologically willing and able to kill.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Pretty positive the Turks were designed to be popular, given that they're the recurring rival antagonists to the main characters and have numerous appearances throughout the story that showcase their unique and quirky behaviors. They have numerous back-and-forths with the party to exhibit their characters and endear them to players despite being enemies. Rude having a crush on Tifa and refraining from attacking her, Reno having a rivalry with Cloud coupled with his sarcastic sense of humor, and then there's Elena's clumsy slapstick humor, eagerness, her "straight man" act with the other Turks, and endearing loyalty to Tseng. These characterizations weren't "accidentally" popular or just happenstance, they were totally written that way to be popular.

Every FF has a recurring secondary rival antagonist that pursue or tries to thwart the protagonists, and the Turks are the ones for FFVII. Ultros was VI's, Fujin and Rajin were VIII's, Lani and Beatrix were IX's, Seymour was X's, the Ba'Gammnan group was XII's and etc.
 
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