Do you think that Cloud is closet bisexual?

[LicoriceAllsorts]

God I hate "Hate-cest" shipping so much...

It's not my cup of tea either. But but but... I wouldn't want to deny it to the people who like it or need it. I am sure my love of Tseng/Rufus angsty yearning fulfils some kind of unmet emotional need in me, although what it is exactly, damned if I know!

 

[Fangu]

I mean, I'm all for fans exploring all sorts of stuff. I'm all for people writing fanfic where characters who hate each other in the original work get it on, because writing (and other things) is all about playing around in a massive sandbox, not limiting yourself to what people expect or what is within borders of The Common Sense. Heck, my fanfic writing didn't even get anywhere near anything resembling good before I wrote a small post story of how one of the characters killed the other (and then themselves.) I have loads of written horrible not published stuff that will never see the light of day. It was all experimental. Ways of trying to bend the understanding of a character, ways to get from A to B, ways to write things where you'd think 'nah, this wouldn't fly in a millions years, but I'm up to the challenge to see if I can come close.' So Cloud and Sephiroth, sure. Show me a good written fanfic that convinces me it could be a thing, I'm all up for it.

So I'm like, hell yeah Cloud is closet bisexual for Sephiroth. In a million universes and a million settings and in all kinds of imaginable (and unimaginable) ways, Cloud is definitely a closet bisexual for Sephiroth. Do I think canon supports it based on the obsession thing? Not really. But it's something for shippers to pick up on. You obsess with someone? You must be attracted to them in some way or another.

Me, I imagine bisexual Cloud feeling drawn to Sephiroth from the moment he got to know him, ending his obsession (in that way) when he found himself too often waking up drowning in his own sweat from dreaming he made love to him and then murdered him in the most grusomme way. Then to push all of that away along with realising his true persona.

Why did I stop writing fanfiction lol

 

[Ite]

When Square Enix releases a game with a fully out gay character that isn’t a) a buffoon or b) a villain, I will entertain the idea of them one day intentionally and sensitively portraying a bisexual protagonist. But certainly not the company as it is today, and CERTAINLY not in 1997. I live in a pretty liberal city and our Pride Parade didn’t allow bisexuals to participate until the early-2000s — many gay people still deny that they exist (they’re either gay and afraid or straight and rebelling), and that’s to say nothing of the non-liberal majority who don’t want no queers in their vidja games!

Enjoy the fanfic, but there’s simply no evidence.

 

[ChipNoir]

It's not my cup of tea either. But but but... I wouldn't want to deny it to the people who like it or need it. I am sure my love of Tseng/Rufus angsty yearning fulfils some kind of unmet emotional need in me, although what it is exactly, damned if I know!

I like my own fair share of um...taboo things.

I guess what irritates me is that there's difference between myself doing it since it involves my own natural orientation, and the Yaoi Fangirl who uses pairings that represent my orientation as just one chunk of a taboo buffet. It ends up giving the market the impression that the only way to do a gay love story is to make it as fraught with drama and other contrived taboos.

It'd just be nice if more than 1/10th of the material out there was just a nice, uncomplicated romance. Cis-straight has it's own taboo-romance market, but it doesn't dominate the romance genre the way this stuff dominates LGBT media in anime/manga, or even western material for that matter.

 

[Ite]

Chip are you telling me that gay relationships aren’t all founded on the bedrock of hurt/comfort?

When it comes to my non-normativity (polyamory) represented in media, I’m always frustrated because the writers’ end up making it about a love triangle anyway, or else poly shows up as a kind of deus ex machina to solve a love triangle, which is like, no. It’s not like that kind of thing doesn’t happen irl, but that kind of repetition paints a picture for outsiders, ya know?

 

[ChipNoir]

Chip are you telling me that gay relationships aren’t all founded on the bedrock of hurt/comfort?

When it comes to my non-normativity (polyamory) represented in media, I’m always frustrated because the writers’ end up making it about a love triangle anyway, or else poly shows up as a kind of deus ex machina to solve a love triangle, which is like, no. It’s not like that kind of thing doesn’t happen irl, but that kind of repetition paints a picture for outsiders, ya know?

I'd love it if I could find a doujin or webcomic that was about a legit BDSM couple. But even if BDSM gets involved there's always dub-con or non-con elements where the Sub is forced into it and "Learns" to like it later on. Just...eugh. That's a whole other kettle of fish that annoys me.

I have my reptile brain. I get it. But 100% of anything is always a bad image.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

I (obviously) could be dead wrong here, but I just feel simply that the era in which Cloud was created was a period in gaming before writers would present a character who dreams of being a macho, tough-guy warrior, all to impress this girl from his childhood, instead being a cover for his actual desires for a man (the villain, no less) which are present in scattered, extremely light subtext that's never followed through on. As has been said, just seems too much of a stretch. I will acknowledge that the degree to which Cloud's aspirations are near cliche in their embodiment of prototypical male 'warriorhood', fits with projections of 'Closetdom' present in fiction and reality alike, but again...just doesn't feel like game writing circa' 97. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Clement Rage]

Y'all could maybe try writing the thing you want to see? If you want to see it, chances are other people do too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Y'all could maybe try writing the thing you want to see? If you want to see it, chances are other people do too.

I was going to say the exact same thing.

I just wanted to add this: if the story is about the BDSM, then there has to be some kind of drama or conflict (or comedy) and resolution attached to the BDSM itself for the narrative to have a structure. Otherwise it would turn out to be a kind of BDSM Karma Sutra, which would probably be a very nice thing, but wouldn't be a story with developed characters and a plot etc.... If the story is about a BDSM couple, but not the BDSM per se, then the writer has to decide why the fact that they're a BDSM couple is relevant to the plot. What does the BDSM contribute to the story? Why does the reader need to know what this couple does in the bedroom? If it's a romance and they're both into BDSM and there's no other obstacle to them getting together, then where exactly is the plot?

 

[jazzflower92]

I (obviously) could be dead wrong here, but I just feel simply that the era in which Cloud was created was a period in gaming before writers would present a character who dreams of being a macho, tough-guy warrior, all to impress this girl from his childhood, instead being a cover for his actual desires for a man (the villain, no less) which are present in scattered, extremely light subtext that's never followed through on. As has been said, just seems too much of a stretch. I will acknowledge that the degree to which Cloud's aspirations are near cliche in their embodiment of prototypical male 'warriorhood', fits with projections of 'Closetdom' present in fiction and reality alike, but again...just doesn't feel like game writing circa' 97. I hope this makes sense.

I don't think it's intentional, but there is some heavy fanon interpretation to take from it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, of course, fanon can take whatever it likes from canon. Fanon can and has made Cloud and Reno lovers; made Tifa and Aerith lovers; made Cloud's motorcycle and the Shinra helicopter lovers.

 

[Ite]

My favourite slash fic is the blue and red materia, to explain Bahamut-SIN. (Ironically it has a low instance of the word “orbs”)

 

[fancy]

Right, jazz, is your original point that there is sufficient material to suggest that Cloud is bisexual canonically or fanonically? Because with enough imagination, anything is possible with the latter and you are absolutely right and within your right to explore it.

 

[Clement Rage]

I just wanted to add this: if the story is about the BDSM, then there has to be some kind of drama or conflict (or comedy) and resolution attached to the BDSM itself for the narrative to have a structure. Otherwise it would turn out to be a kind of BDSM Karma Sutra, which would probably be a very nice thing, but wouldn't be a story with developed characters and a plot etc.... If the story is about a BDSM couple, but not the BDSM per se, then the writer has to decide why the fact that they're a BDSM couple is relevant to the plot. What does the BDSM contribute to the story? Why does the reader need to know what this couple does in the bedroom? If it's a romance and they're both into BDSM and there's no other obstacle to them getting together, then where exactly is the plot?

It's how they relax/relieve stress between alien invasions/murder cases, etc. I've read at least one published book with a sex scene during hostage negotiations between enemy vampire clans, so it won't be too difficult to slot in.

I am serious, by the way. If you want to see it, trying to do it is your best chance of improving representation. If it doesn't work, at least you learn why.

 

[ChipNoir]

Yeah, being in the BDSM world, it's just...the way you live. It's almost funny how mundanely it's treated in conversation among my friends if it's brought up at all. Because we're all comfortable with each other with no secrets, there's nothing all that taboo about it. It was quite a trip actually sitting in the meet where one side was people trading recipes with each other, and the other side of the room one couple was doing flogging and the other was doing light knife play.

Not every couple is like that, but it goes to show that not every BDSM relationship needs to be so...esoteric?

Plenty doujin do just manage to be slice-of-life with a lot of sex tossed in there. BDSM would just be in place of the vanilla sex.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Plenty doujin do just manage to be slice-of-life with a lot of sex tossed in there. BDSM would just be in place of the vanilla sex.

So, why not write that?

 

[jazzflower92]

You know I think Sephiroth in contrast with this fanon h/c is demisexual-being attracted to people he forms relationships with.

 

[ChipNoir]

So, why not write that?

I have.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cool. Did you ever post it?

 

[looneymoon]

I mean Cloud/Sephiroth seem to be partially inspired by Guts/Griffiths from Berserk, which if I am not mistaken, is probably where the whole Gay Rival trope in Japanese media started. That's not a gay relationship either (arguably one-sided), but it's definitely erotically charged for story/thematic purposes.

This doesn't really mean anything, but the Gay Rival thing is definitely a trope that is pretty prevalent in Japanese media. I don't take this to mean that the creators ever intended there to be a romantic aspect to this relationship, but I am sure that they were aware that certain demographics would take it there.

 

[jazzflower92]

I mean Cloud/Sephiroth seem to be partially inspired by Guts/Griffiths from Berserk, which if I am not mistaken, is probably where the whole Gay Rival trope in Japanese media started. That's not a gay relationship either (arguably one-sided), but it's definitely erotically charged for story/thematic purposes.

This doesn't really mean anything, but the Gay Rival thing is definitely a trope that is pretty prevalent in Japanese media. I don't take this to mean that the creators ever intended there to be a romantic aspect to this relationship, but I am sure that they were aware that certain demographics would take it there.

At this point, Sephiroth could teasingly be called Cloud's third option love interest.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Of course, you could call him anything. The confusion here seems to be between what a fan can call him, and what is supported by the evidence in canon.

 

[jazzflower92]

Of course, you could call him anything. The confusion here seems to be between what a fan can call him, and what is supported by the evidence in canon.

If there was a dating sim of Final Fantasy 7, then Sephiroth would be chosen as the legitimate gay option. I mean Barret was an option of who to pal with at the Golden Saucer, but we all know Sephiroth is the real "crush". (I am speaking all of this in a fanon mindset)

 

[Alex Strife]

The problem here is that many people conflate fanon with canon.

As far as fanon goes, you can pretty much go for anything. You can take any subtext and give it any meaning you want. Canon? That's an entirely different story.

Personally, I never saw anything that made me think: "That's gay". I saw in Sephiroth (Jenova) a manipulative entity that, if anything, may have enjoyed the confusion it brought about to Cloud. And even then, to me it was more of a "means for an end". Let's not forget the Sephiroth we see for most of the game is Jenova anyway.

As for Cloud... a 14 year old loser who admires a hero and wants to be like him. And here's the key point. He wants to be like him. Not to have sex with him. In fact, part of the reason he wants to be like Sephiroth is so that he could impress Tifa, whom he did have romantic feelings for. Once he joins the Shinra army, he realises the power difference and seeing him up close only makes him even more impressed at his feats. "Unreal power" and all that. It's not he was attracted to him, sexually or romantically. He was all he would have aspired to be.

And after the game, most of his mindset is affected by the Jenova cells and the confusion they bring about.


Tl;dr: Canon-wise? I can't see any reason to say Cloud is bisexual. Likewise, there is also no reason to say he isn't (though I'd argue the Honey Bee Inn scene portrays him as fairly uncomfortable, but I could accept that is up to interpretation).

That said and without having any specific interest in seeing said pairing, I think Cloud had way more chemistry with Zack, rather than Sephiroth.

 

[Clement Rage]

Default Fanon Assumption: Everyone is bi. Unless they're over 40.

Also, welcome back, Jazz, you always start interesting conversations.