Do you think that Cloud is closet bisexual?

[Deleted member 546]

In the absence of any hard evidence of this supposed deleted dialogue, I'm gonna have to go with no, not in the least. Also kinda getting a bit fed up with how bisexuality is portrayed in media in general (seems to be that bi folk are always promiscuous and kinky or else realise they prefer one orientation and 'settle down'), but that's a rant for another time and thread.

 

[jazzflower92]

In the absence of any hard evidence of this supposed deleted dialogue, I'm gonna have to go with no, not in the least. Also kinda getting a bit fed up with how bisexuality is portrayed in media in general (seems to be that bi folk are always promiscuous and kinky or else realise they prefer one orientation and 'settle down'), but that's a rant for another time and thread.

If Cloud was bisexual, he would probably fit neither stereotype.

 

[Deleted member 546]

Which is exactly the point - the stereotype is a total fallacy.

 

[HylianMogget]

I don't think Cloud being bi is canon in the game, but as a fanon interpretation - sure, why not. Cloud/Sephiroth isn't really my thing (I've always just seen Cloud's feelings towards Sephiroth as hero worship and then just plain hate), but I can understand why people ship them.

I mean Cloud/Sephiroth seem to be partially inspired by Guts/Griffiths from Berserk, which if I am not mistaken, is probably where the whole Gay Rival trope in Japanese media started. That's not a gay relationship either (arguably one-sided), but it's definitely erotically charged for story/thematic purposes.

This doesn't really mean anything, but the Gay Rival thing is definitely a trope that is pretty prevalent in Japanese media. I don't take this to mean that the creators ever intended there to be a romantic aspect to this relationship, but I am sure that they were aware that certain demographics would take it there.

I think the trope could go back to Char/Amuro from Gundam (Tomino even actually mentions the sensuous elements of it being intentional in CCA in an interview). But, yeah, I agree - honestly, I'd be more surprised if the creators of FFVII didn't think there'd be people that would ship them.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

As has been said a number of times, part of the point of "fanon" is you can run with it...if you want it, if you can imagine it...BAM! It's there. Personally, I feel like the concept of Cloud having a romantic attraction to Sephiroth undermines if not outright ruins a lot of the game's plotting and drive, and several of the central themes involving the nature of revenge/childhood idolization versus adult disillusionment, and, finally--hokey as it may sound--the need by all humans to love and be loved, and the attainment of that as part of what makes a person whole (Sephiroth, eventually even his 'idolization' version representing hatred, and Tifa representing love). I suppose you could argue that that means this concept just clashes with MY fanon, but...I can't help but feel like it's clashing with the actual script, rather than my brain, lol. Am I just being too prideful here?

Unless, again, the suggestion is more simply as to whether Cloud is potentially bisexual in general...which besides there being no evidence for or against, is abstract and irrelevant enough so as to be entirely pointless. We may as well be contemplating whether he likes crunchy or smooth peanut butter.

(Fucking SMOOTH, baby)

 

[Ite]

I thought “fanon” described an interpretation beyond the canon that a large community of fans agree upon. So it’s fanon that Reno’s last name is Sinclair (it comes up all the time) but my personal interpretation that Reno’s “name” is a callsign within the organization. That opinion is not “fanon” since (to my knowledge) no one shares it. And “fanon” recognizes its non-canon nature, so no one would chastise me for going against it.

So in this situation, Cloud and Sephiroth having energy between them that is sexual is “fanon” since a large community agrees. But if I were to make a Heidegger/Biggs fic, that wouldn’t be “fanon” that would just be a fic.

 

[jazzflower92]

I thought “fanon” described an interpretation beyond the canon that a large community of fans agree upon. So it’s fanon that Reno’s last name is Sinclair (it comes up all the time) but my personal interpretation that Reno’s “name” is a callsign within the organization. That opinion is not “fanon” since (to my knowledge) no one shares it. And “fanon” recognizes its non-canon nature, so no one would chastise me for going against it.

So in this situation, Cloud and Sephiroth having energy between them that is sexual is “fanon” since a large community agrees. But if I were to make a Heidegger/Biggs fic, that wouldn’t be “fanon” that would just be a fic.

Heidegger/Biggs fiction would be very gross.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There's a story there, and that story is the reason why Biggs joined Avalanche.

 

[ChipNoir]

Fanon indeeds a collective evolution of a concept over time as it ages and becomes more a creature of the collective than the original creator. Lindsay's youtube channel covers that with the Hades Loose Canon episode pretty well.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

I thought “fanon” described an interpretation beyond the canon that a large community of fans agree upon. So it’s fanon that Reno’s last name is Sinclair (it comes up all the time) but my personal interpretation that Reno’s “name” is a callsign within the organization. That opinion is not “fanon” since (to my knowledge) no one shares it. And “fanon” recognizes its non-canon nature, so no one would chastise me for going against it.

So in this situation, Cloud and Sephiroth having energy between them that is sexual is “fanon” since a large community agrees. But if I were to make a Heidegger/Biggs fic, that wouldn’t be “fanon” that would just be a fic.

Thanks for the clarification...I must admit though, I had NO CLUE that the Cloud/Sephiroth thing was acknowledged by a "large community". Thought it was more of a fringe collective, where every character always wants to fuck every other character, and that's what's really driving everything we see (which, in real life, anyway, IS usually the case, but in fiction is debatable). I have been informed!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Large" is all relative, but it's the most popular ship on AO3 by a long way:

 

[jazzflower92]

"Large" is all relative, but it's the most popular ship on AO3 by a long way:
View attachment 2407

It looks like it's not Aerith, Tifa has to watch out for but Sephiroth.

 

[Lex]

"Large" is all relative, but it's the most popular ship on AO3 by a long way:
View attachment 2407

Clack has risen right up the ranks over the past 10 years it seems. It never used to be that popular a ship.

/offtopic

 

[jazzflower92]

Clack has risen right up the ranks over the past 10 years it seems. It never used to be that popular a ship.

/offtopic

I notice that as well.

 

[ChipNoir]

To be fair, there wasn't much to work with given Zack didn't have a well defined personality, and they knew each other at a time when Cloud was much younger, so a lot would be reluctant to ship a 16 YO with a man who had to be at least 20 if not older. That's my theory anyways. It stands out to me because I do remember some of the earliest slash I read had the pairing, but with Zack resolutely waiting till Cloud turned 18 even though he had been aware of the Cloud since he had first enlisted. It also focused very strongly on the idea of them being captive but not just kept in mako tubes the whole time.

 

[jazzflower92]

To be fair, there wasn't much to work with given Zack didn't have a well defined personality, and they knew each other at a time when Cloud was much younger, so a lot would be reluctant to ship a 16 YO with a man who had to be at least 20 if not older. That's my theory anyways. It stands out to me because I do remember some of the earliest slash I read had the pairing, but with Zack resolutely waiting till Cloud turned 18 even though he had been aware of the Cloud since he had first enlisted. It also focused very strongly on the idea of them being captive but not just kept in mako tubes the whole time.

It wasn't until Crisis Core where people knew more about Zack.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Cloud comes across as mostly asexual in the game to me. I think it does make it quite clear that Sephiroth was widely regarded as a kind of legendary figure across the world. Given that Cloud always wanted to make SOLIDER, I think his admiration is just as a role model. In the same way science/engineering nerds like me idolize people like Elon Musk in the real world. That's definitely not a sexual thing, I can be quite sure of that. I'm probably the straightest person I've ever met.

"Large" is all relative, but it's the most popular ship on AO3 by a long way:
View attachment 2407

Lol that's just because fanfiction is almost entirely the province of teenage girls. About 80% female, mostly below the age of 18:
http://ffnresearch.blogspot.com/2011/03/fan-fiction-demographics-in-2010-age.html

So you have a pretty widespread bias in favour of M/M relationships and against F/F relationships. If you look at the Marvel section on AO3 for example, the top relationship is gay Bucky and Steve Rogers. Clearly based entirely on the imaginations of the authors rather than any facts about the source material.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Which raises some interesting questions, the biggest of which is, why are teen girls so fascinated by M/M relationships? Especially since, to the best of my knowledge, the M/M relationships they write rarely bear much similarity to real-life gay relationships. It's a phenomenon nobody has entirely explained.

I think nowadays all our entertainment has become so sexualised, both overtly and in a coded way, that any character who isn't clearly sexualised comes across as asexual.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Which raises some interesting questions, the biggest of which is, why are teen girls so fascinated by M/M relationships? Especially since, to the best of my knowledge, the M/M relationships they write rarely bear much similarity to real-life gay relationships. It's a phenomenon nobody has entirely explained.

I assume it's just the mirror image of the fact that some men like watching F/F stuff. Dunno what the exact biological drive for that is though.
It's the sort of thing Freud would've had a diabolical explanation for.

 

[fancy]

Which raises some interesting questions, the biggest of which is, why are teen girls so fascinated by M/M relationships? Especially since, to the best of my knowledge, the M/M relationships they write rarely bear much similarity to real-life gay relationships. It's a phenomenon nobody has entirely explained.

I think nowadays all our entertainment has become so sexualised, both overtly and in a coded way, that any character who isn't clearly sexualised comes across as asexual.

I've actually read an article on this phenomenon and now I want to find it. I don't think I agreed with it entirely, but it was an interesting take.

 

[Strangelove]

nice

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I assume it's just the mirror image of the fact that some men like watching F/F stuff. Dunno what the exact biological drive for that is though.
It's the sort of thing Freud would've had a diabolical explanation for.

Yeah, but no, because most slash fic isn't exactly porn, although there's plenty of that. Mostly, though, it's about exploring their feelings for each other. Even the sex usually turns into an R-rated exploration of emotions. UST, hurt/comfort, confusion about feelings and deep unspoken yearnings are all v. popular in the slashfic world.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Yeah, but no, because most slash fic isn't exactly porn, although there's plenty of that. Mostly, though, it's about exploring their feelings for each other. Even the sex usually turns into an R-rated exploration of emotions. UST, hurt/comfort, confusion about feelings and deep unspoken yearnings are all v. popular in the slashfic world.

Whether something counts as porn is kinda relative to the intended audience though isn't it?

I generally assume that if it contains any nudity or sexual interactions as a main focus of the story, it's probably being interpreted as porn by someone (with obvious exceptions, like a book on biology or something)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't know. Merriam Webster defines porn as "the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement". The slash fanfic I know is often "intended to cause sexual excitement" (but not always, or even most of the time) which is why I said it isn't just porn, or not exactly porn, because so much of it is romance and the exploring of emotions, things which are not intended to cause sexual excitement. What I mean is, it's not being consumed by its audience as just porn or even primarily porn. Unless you want to define every romantic novel, TV show and film ever as porn, in which case, then yeah, I guess.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Right, but that's what I mean by it's relative to the audience.

There are some people who could happily have sex with someone they've met 5 minutes ago. Other people find that idea quite awful, and need to go through a long emotional interaction before they're interested in anything sexual. I'm suggesting that people in that category, maybe see these types of stories as porn. Whereas people in the first category obviously wouldn't.