Do You Think They Will Explain This?

[Odysseus]

You all made me do this

Spoiler

 

[OWA-2]

I dare anybody here to find someone(in real life or the internet) new to FF7, who has only played the Remake, and ask them if they think Tifa had any strong feelings towards Sephiroth, before he confronted the party in Remake.

I dare you, because I'm SURE they will say "no". That's how 'believable' her reaction was. ?

And before you say that it wasn't relevant to the plot yet, and to that scene:

It doesn't matter if this is something that's not relevant yet, good writing doesn't wait to have characters act in character until the plot demands it off them. Tifa should have a visceral reaction to it, and the fact that we don't know why she'd have such a strong reaction should be something the audience wonders about until it's later revealed, she shouldn't suddenly start having emotions only after it's revealed to the audience that she should have emotions.

 

[ForceStealer]

This strikes me as an area of the original that the Remake could have improved upon and neglected to do so rather than something it made worse. Outside of the flashback, it doesn't seem like Tifa ever acted super viscerally to Sephiroth. Even if you make her a party leader against Bizarro Sephiroth she doesn't really refer to their history, merely her determination:

Tifa
We're not gonna lose!!
Aeris is here... everyone is here... Cloud is here with us!
There's still many things for us to do... I'm not giving up!!

I agree that some dialogue between her and Cloud after the fact would have been very welcome to me. But I'll also say in being reminded of her reaction to seeing him in the videos being posted...the way she not-quite-stumbles backward is actually pretty good, imo. It starts to remind me of Kirk falling back to his chair in Star Trek III (though not quite there of course).

 

[cold_spirit]

Having played through The Drum at lot of times, like a lot a lot of times, I've never made note of this issue.

And while I do agree it it could've been handled better, it's not a critical error to me personally. Not even in my top 100 list of Remake issues.

But I get it. We've all got our own hills we'll die on regarding this game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I dare anybody here to find someone(in real life or the internet) new to FF7, who has only played the Remake, and ask them if they think Tifa had any strong feelings towards Sephiroth, before he confronted the party in Remake.

I dare you, because I'm SURE they will say "no". That's how 'believable' her reaction was. ?

And before you say that it wasn't relevant to the plot yet, and to that scene:

One of the key reasons two new fans that I know liked Tifa the most out of the secondary main characters, is because Tifa is a relatable person who acts like a normal human being when confronted with the crazy, over-the-top bullshit and horror in FFVII.

In the Remake, Tifa nervously chit-chats during missions. She ruminates. She questions herself and their motives. She steels herself when faced with frightening situations despite letting some of her feelings emerge. She sobs. She's simply not an invincible or aggressive badass that just shrugs everything off. She's sensitive and conveys weakness, but rises above it.

And they were both able to accurately understand that the core emotion Tifa felt in that scene was terror and complete surprise. Tifa didn't say anything or scream because she was bewildered and then frightened at what she saw. Aside from Cloud, everyone in that scene was to a varying degree shocked and/or terrified upon realizing Sephiroth was standing right there in front of them. That's why they're all silent aside from Cloud.

They were intensely aware of Sephiroth's and Shinra's connection to destroying Tifa's hometown and murder of her father becasue of the multiple flashbacks that showed Tifa's grief and pain during Nibelheim, and then her personal Chapter 14 resolution scene with Cloud. That drove home what kind of character she was.

You're essentially just trying to make Tifa someone else now. Because that's simply not her kind of reaction based on her personality or just how her character was written in the Remake. Hell, she wasn't like that in the OG either. Tifa is sensitive. She's shy. She's not weak but she definitely isn't some fearless badass who's gripped with a burning fire of revenge that makes her feel righteous rage upon laying eyes on Sephiroth. She felt fear upon seeing him again.

 

[kathy202]

While I agree they could have done more, I also don't feel particularly bothered by them not having done so. Tifa's responses are often internal and muted until she's really had enough of something, and at this point I think she would be feeling more fear and confusion than feeling like she's had enough of it.

If they had wanted to show more of those emotions, they could have done so later in the dialog while they were walking around the drum, but the entire chapter was sorely lacking in that compared to the rest of the game anyway.

And I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to show her recoiling in fear, or shaking in anger in a scene that was about Cloud and Sephiroth. It doesn't feel like her either IMO.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Just to point out the obvious... Tifa has always been an introvert. And she acts like an introvert. Which usually means keeping her thoughts/feelings to herself more often than sharing them with other people. And that even goes for very strong emotions like shock and terror.

Part of what makes what Tifa *does* say really important is that it's become a big enough deal *to Tifa* that she ends up opening up about it. However, that doesn't mean what she doesn't open up about isn't important. Far from it. Usually... introverts tend to open up about stuff once they've internally come to grips with it first.

As someone who is very introverted... how I manage stress and surprise in the moment comes off... odd to people at times. I'm usually too involved coming to terms with stress/surprise internally to really focus on... how that is coming across to other people at the same time. And I will often end up with what looks like a non-reaction to very emotionally charged situations. Mainly because my head is too busy sorting out what everything means in the moment to do things like *act* shocked/surprised/angry/etc. The outward reaction comes later once I'm finished processing everything... and the faster I manage to internally process stuff, the sooner the outward emotions come. Generally speaking, the sooner the emotional reaction comes, the less time I had to spend processing what happened to bring out the reaction in the first place.

Everyone in Chapter 18 of Remake is shocked the entire chapter long about everything that happens with Sephrioth and Aerith. No one has had any time to process anything really by the time the game has finished. In the OG, all the reactions really come out once the Kalm Flashback happens, and we aren't going to have that happen for a while yet.

So... If everyone is just... chill... about what happens in Midgar once the Kalm Flashback happens... then I'll think something really weird is going on. If we end up having everyone having a collective WTF!?!? reaction (according to how their characters do that)... then I'll probably be fine with it. Remake... really doesn't give anyone time to breath and think over stuff in a very satisfactory way due to the pacing, so I'm kinda iffy on anyone doing some actual thinking about *anything* that happened in the entire game really.

 

[ultima786]

I think everyone’s rationilizations are cool and sensible. I think all I’m asking is for Square to just subtly show us something to wink at us a bit. A camera shot at her fists or a subtle “no” as some mentioned would have been enough. For a game that nailed almost every other detail, even subtle allusions to the past (tifa grtting the flower and surprised to hear Cloud mention it had been 5 years...) it was a sad lost opportunity.

 

[OWA-2]

Guys, I'm not asking for Tifa to scream in anger to the heavens, or piss her pants in fear. ? I'm just asking for the camera to foccus on her face for a second, and show her expression and emotions(just like they did with Aerith). Something indicating there is more than we know so far in Remake, between her and Sephiroth.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Guys, I'm not asking for Tifa to scream in anger to the heavens, or piss her pants in fear. ? I'm just asking for the camera to foccus on her face for a second, and show her expression and emotions(just like they did with Aerith). Something indicating there is more than we know so far in Remake, between her and Sephiroth.

It seems some people think that's what they got. Others disagree.

 

[kathy202]

Okay, point taken. Though right now I can't decide which is worse, Aerith appearing like she knows something when she wouldn't have in the OG, and yet never quite coherently explaining anything, or Tifa appearing like she's possibly clueless but actually shouldn't be. All I know, is that I'm not a big fan of the way the last two chapters were written. I don't think they can retroactively fix it, but I just hope they don't continue with this style of storytelling.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don’t know if the devs went out of their way to choose to have Tifa not react strongly, I just figured it probably wasn’t something they thought to show because they had other things they were focused on in that scene...if her reaction really mattered in that moment, then I’d expect them to show it but I’d rather not think more about something so specific than the devs themselves did

View attachment 9911

This thread is exactly the place for this molehill to be a mountain. Do you want to engage or just belittle people you disagree with? Oh, both? Looks like both.

I definitely don’t mean to belittle anybody, it’s just the specific molehills people choose to make mountains out of is probably one of the weirdest things I’ve noticed in this fanbase...not that I’m any better though, I know I’ve definitely been just as tight-assed about stuff I grew up with like Spider-Man or Naruto

You all made me do this

Spoiler

View attachment 9914

Something indicating there is more than we know so far in Remake, between her and Sephiroth.

I mean we did get that with Cloud’s flashback already but as far as this specific scene goes, I really don’t think there’s much else to say about it other than the reason they didn’t show a reaction is “just because”, that’s all...as unsatisfying as that might be, that’s usually all there is to stuff like this or other perceived plot holes, I don’t think it’s an indictment of Tifa’s characterization considering what we can expect in the rest of the story anyways

 

[Stiggie]

I don’t know if the devs went out of their way to choose to have Tifa not react strongly, I just figured it probably wasn’t something they thought to show because they had other things they were focused on in that scene...if her reaction really mattered in that moment, then I’d expect them to show it but Id rather not think more about something so specific than the devs themselves did


I definitely don’t mean to belittle anybody, it’s just the specific molehills people choose to make mountains out of is probably one of the weirdest things I’ve noticed in this fanbase...not that I’m any better though, I know I’ve definitely been just as tight-assed about stuff I grew up with like Spider-Man or Naruto

I mean we did get that with Cloud’s flashback already but as far as this specific scene goes, I really don’t think there’s much else to say about it other than the reason they didn’t show a reaction is “just because”, that’s all...as unsatisfying as that might be, that’s usually all there is to stuff like this or other perceived plot holes, I don’t think it’s an indictment of Tifa’s characterization considering what we can expect in the rest of the story anyways

I think the reason, for me at least, is that years of consuming media has made me understand how powerful small moments can be.
Sometimes a single shot of a face can be the difference between a shot being forgetful or something that will stay with you forever. So while you might think these are "molehills", I reply that the details are often what distinguish masterpieces from trash.


I am going to use Lord of the rings as an example, because I ALWAYS go back to lord of the rings for examples because it's the perfect example of everything that is good. In Moria we see the Dwarrowdelf.
Now the Dwarrowdelf isn't that impressively designed. But I always feel a sense of awe when Gandalf lights up his staff because the music takes the time to indicate that it is impressive, and we see Gimlis awed face. That alone is enough that 20 years later I still feel awed while watching that scene. Conversely, in a lot of modern movies I might see dozens of intricately designed cities, one magnificent vista after another, but since the movie doesn't take the time to impress on me that it is impressive, I simply do not care.

The mole hills matter, so when I see an obvious mole hill shaped hole in a scene, it bothers me, because it's both lost potential, as well as a worrying indication of a larger issue such as bad directing.

Likewise, a minute later in Dwarrowdelf we see Gimli seriously mourning Dwalin, a character we don't even know, and will not know until the Hobbit happens. But they still treat it with the respect and seriousness that their characters would feel, and because of that that is earnestly transmitted to the viewer. So when I see Tifa barely react to Sephiroth, I imagine Gimli discovering that Balin is dead and barely reacting, and I think about how much of a loss that would have been to the experience of that moment. Is it a detail? Yes. Has it been revealed that Balin is important to the story? No. And if the scene had never happened I can imagine people going "why do you care so much? what difference would it have made if Gimli had had a better reaction?". But I know how powerful the scene turned out to be because of that detail, and because of that I can mourn that same loss of potential when I see it somewhere not being taken in the first place.

I know the impact those shots, scenes, and details can have. I know how they can make characters feel human, how they can emotionally anchor you to a story, I know the potential those moments hold, so when I see an obvious opportunity for one, that is then not taken, then I know what was lost in that moment with the same pain I'd feel had it been a moment that was taken away after the fact.

 

[Theozilla]

But see how you’re framing your criticism is different from how the op post of the thread framed their criticism. Yeah, small details like character reactions/moments are important contributing factors to the quality of a work, but the way the op comment/question is framed is acting like Tifa had no reaction to Sephiroth and that there was a plot hole on the writers/devs part, when in actuality Tifa does have a reaction to Sephiroth’s appearance. Now whether that reaction was sufficiently significant enough, or should have been given more focus is a separate criticism, and obviously different people will feel differently about it. But framing personal dissatisfaction with how something was presented as a plot hole and/or claiming the something in question didn’t happen at all, is a distinct different matter IMO.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Imagining the love the creators certainly have for their work and counting on the perfect knowledge they must have of the plot and characters they have created, if to some Tifa's reaction seems to be so out of sync with what they logically expect from her, can we imagine that it is not a mistake from the developers but their knowledge that Tifa is no longer Tifa at that point in the story that would show up on this occasion (and perhaps on others)? Or is this possibility totally excluded for you?

 

[ultima786]

Imagining the love the creators certainly have for their work and counting on the perfect knowledge they must have of the plot and characters they have created, if to some Tifa's reaction seems to be so out of sync with what they logically expect from her, can we imagine that it is not a mistake from the developers but their knowledge that Tifa is no longer Tifa at that point in the story that would show up on this occasion (and perhaps on others)? Or is this possibility totally excluded for you?

No. I don’t think they’d change her backstory. What they may add is perhaps her coma made her forget or lose some of memories or something? That would be sorta weird (too many characters losing their memories!) but I’d live with that.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think the reason, for me at least, is that years of consuming media has made me understand how powerful small moments can be.
Sometimes a single shot of a face can be the difference between a shot being forgetful or something that will stay with you forever. So while you might think these are "molehills", I reply that the details are often what distinguish masterpieces from trash.


I am going to use Lord of the rings as an example, because I ALWAYS go back to lord of the rings for examples because it's the perfect example of everything that is good. In Moria we see the Dwarrowdelf.
Now the Dwarrowdelf isn't that impressively designed. But I always feel a sense of awe when Gandalf lights up his staff because the music takes the time to indicate that it is impressive, and we see Gimlis awed face. That alone is enough that 20 years later I still feel awed while watching that scene. Conversely, in a lot of modern movies I might see dozens of intricately designed cities, one magnificent vista after another, but since the movie doesn't take the time to impress on me that it is impressive, I simply do not care.

The mole hills matter, so when I see an obvious mole hill shaped hole in a scene, it bothers me, because it's both lost potential, as well as a worrying indication of a larger issue such as bad directing.

Likewise, a minute later in Dwarrowdelf we see Gimli seriously mourning Dwalin, a character we don't even know, and will not know until the Hobbit happens. But they still treat it with the respect and seriousness that their characters would feel, and because of that that is earnestly transmitted to the viewer. So when I see Tifa barely react to Sephiroth, I imagine Gimli discovering that Balin is dead and barely reacting, and I think about how much of a loss that would have been to the experience of that moment. Is it a detail? Yes. Has it been revealed that Balin is important to the story? No. And if the scene had never happened I can imagine people going "why do you care so much? what difference would it have made if Gimli had had a better reaction?". But I know how powerful the scene turned out to be because of that detail, and because of that I can mourn that same loss of potential when I see it somewhere not being taken in the first place.

I know the impact those shots, scenes, and details can have. I know how they can make characters feel human, how they can emotionally anchor you to a story, I know the potential those moments hold, so when I see an obvious opportunity for one, that is then not taken, then I know what was lost in that moment with the same pain I'd feel had it been a moment that was taken away after the fact.

The devs have definitely shown this level of thoughtfulness in several other scenes throughout the game though, so it’s really just a matter of what they choose to show and what they choose not to. Could they have done it? Of course. Why wouldn’t they? Because if they thought it was so important, they would have shown it. It’s not that they aren’t capable of it, it’s just something they passively didn’t seem to think was necessary is all. Sure, it would’ve been nice but we could pick apart pretty much any story and find something that could have been shown but wasn’t. It’s easy to get hung up over what we might consider missed opportunities (which is entirely subjective anyways) but at some point I would think that what is shown is more fairly deserving of this much critique than what isn’t.

Imagining the love the creators certainly have for their work and counting on the perfect knowledge they must have of the plot and characters they have created, if to some Tifa's reaction seems to be so out of sync with what they logically expect from her, can we imagine that it is not a mistake from the developers but their knowledge that Tifa is no longer Tifa at that point in the story that would show up on this occasion (and perhaps on others)? Or is this possibility totally excluded for you?

I definitely wouldn’t go that far, honestly I just think people might be overthinking this a bit too much

 

[Obsidian Fire]

No. I don’t think they’d change her backstory. What they may add is perhaps her coma made her forget or lose some of memories or something? That would be sorta weird (too many characters losing their memories!) but I’d live with that.

They don't even have to add this in. It's there in the OG already. That Tifa got slashed with Masamune , *maybe* had a short conversation with Cloud in the Reactor and then Zagen took her away from Nibelheim. All while Tifa is suffering from massive shock from blood loss and probably is mostly blacked out. Also... seeing Nibelheim burn and everyone you know get killed all in one night... no way Tifa doesn't have trauma from that in some form. Getting the events of that night mixed up in her head and/or partially forgotten would be *normal*.

Part of why Tifa doesn't confront Cloud in the OG about Nibelheim is because her own memories of that night aren't the best and she knows it. The conversation she has with Cloud in the Lifestream while restoring his memories is enlightening for *both* of them as to what really happened that night.

 

[Eerie]

This, exactly. She isn't sure of her own memories, and a lot of people forget about it. Although she certainly remembers going after Sephiroth.

Also I'm surprised people think it might be not the same Tifa, with all the flashbacks we've had already of her from Cloud... and the fact that they're going to release a light novel about her past (and Aerith's which *should* kill any "but it's an Aerith from the future!" theories).

 

[Odysseus]

See, Tifa not having the level of reaction some people would have liked getting conflated into her being a different Tifa, or having her back story retconned (we still see her react to her father's death, as I showed previously,) having amnesia, the writers forgetting their own story, or whatever is exactly why I believe this whole thing is getting blown monstrously out of proportion.

Not being happy with the presentation is fine. I don't agree, mind you, but it's fine. This is something else and it's getting far too read into for what it is, in my opinion. I was also kind of taken aback by the insinuation that someone who disagrees must be trolling, but that was a lot of posts ago now.

 

[LNK]

After watching the video of their reactions to Sephiroth, I don't see a whole lot of difference between Tifa and Aerith's reactions.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

The sense of discrepancy in Tifa's reaction felt by some may indeed be heightened by the fact that it is Cloud who remembers Tifa's rage at the murder of her father. This would be another clumsy move on the part of the writers on top of Tifa's potentially uninspired acting.

 

[LNK]

The sense of discrepancy in Tifa's reaction felt by some may indeed be heightened by the fact that it is Cloud who remembers Tifa's rage at the murder of her father. This would be another clumsy move on the part of the writers on top of Tifa's potentially uninspired acting.

In the remake timeline, were we shown that Sephiroth killed Tifa's father though?

 

[Odysseus]

T__T

 

[Ite]

I don’t see where Tifa’s performance is “uninspired.” I played with voices off, but I’ve now seen that scene in three languages. The voice performances are wonderful. And while Tifa’s mocap is directed to be a bit meek for a brawler imo, it’s a deliberate and consistent character choice.

The only way one might think the performance is less than stellar is a lack of script for Tifa’s actor to “perform.” There’s no dialogue. There is a strict emotional hierarchy in performance: facial < blocking < speech < song < dance/aria. An impulse that moves your face is less strong than an impulse that moves your body. (I don’t know where ‘anime grunt’ falls on this hierarchy, that wasn’t part of my degree I’d probably put it with facial.)

Tifa famously quashes her impulses, so I really can see the other side of this debate. Moreover, Tifa moves her face and her body — it’s not dialogue, but it is written there in the script: Tifa sees Sephiroth, her eyes widen, she lets go of Cloud and takes a step back. She lets go of Cloud, which is also telling. I was wrong in my earlier estimation of “just eyebrows” after watching this scene a jillion times.

Where I (and others) may get mixed up or feel like the game is forsaking her is that in the OG, she has actual lines of dialogue:

Barret
He's dead... The leader of Shinra, Inc. is dead...

Tifa
Then this sword must be...!?

Cloud
Sephiroth's!!

Tifa
...Sephiroth is alive?

It’s easy —natural, even — to see her new script as an emotional downgrade. But the scene in Remake is totally different. Sephiroth is right there.