Do You Think They Will Explain This?

[S.L.Kerrigan]

In the remake timeline, were we shown that Sephiroth killed Tifa's father though?

In the video clip shared by Odysseus some posts above we see Cloud remembering the scene that was told to us in the original game. Since it is a memory I think it belongs to the original timeline (if there are several timelines, there are elements in this sense). After that we can also imagine that Sephiroth didn't kill his father in the original game since nobody told us the scene in detail, but I don't see who would have done that in his place.

I don’t see where Tifa’s performance is “uninspired.” I played with voices off, but I’ve now seen that scene in three languages. The voice performances are wonderful. And while Tifa’s mocap is directed to be a bit meek for a brawler imo, it’s a deliberate and consistent character choice.

The only way one might think the performance is less than stellar is a lack of script for Tifa’s actor to “perform.” There’s no dialogue. There is a strict emotional hierarchy in performance: facial < blocking < speech < song < dance/aria. An impulse that moves your face is less strong than an impulse that moves your body. (I don’t know where ‘anime grunt’ falls on this hierarchy, that wasn’t part of my degree I’d probably put it with facial.)

You are right, I didn't pick the right words. It's the lack of script that we're talking about.

Tifa famously quashes her impulses, so I really can see the other side of this debate.

We also learn in the Remake that Tifa did not repress her impulses when she was a little girl, it did not seem to be in her temperament.
But I hear that she may have changed as she grew up and as a result of her trauma.

 

[ultima786]

I don’t see where Tifa’s performance is “uninspired.” I played with voices off, but I’ve now seen that scene in three languages. The voice performances are wonderful. And while Tifa’s mocap is directed to be a bit meek for a brawler imo, it’s a deliberate and consistent character choice.

The only way one might think the performance is less than stellar is a lack of script for Tifa’s actor to “perform.” There’s no dialogue. There is a strict emotional hierarchy in performance: facial < blocking < speech < song < dance/aria. An impulse that moves your face is less strong than an impulse that moves your body. (I don’t know where ‘anime grunt’ falls on this hierarchy, that wasn’t part of my degree I’d probably put it with facial.)

Tifa famously quashes her impulses, so I really can see the other side of this debate. Moreover, Tifa moves her face and her body — it’s not dialogue, but it is written there in the script: Tifa sees Sephiroth, her eyes widen, she lets go of Cloud and takes a step back. She lets go of Cloud, which is also telling. I was wrong in my earlier estimation of “just eyebrows” after watching this scene a jillion times.

Where I (and others) may get mixed up or feel like the game is forsaking her is that in the OG, she has actual lines of dialogue:



It’s easy —natural, even — to see her new script as an emotional downgrade. But the scene in Remake is totally different. Sephiroth is right there.

Tifa is the best performed character. That is saying a lot considering how great the performances were. Cloud follows equally or close behind Tifa, with Aerith right behind. Those 3 were phenomenal.

 

[Theozilla]

Okay, but Cloud is the one who remembers Tifa’s father being killed by Sephiroth in the OG too (technically the aftermath, but the point is that it’s the same as the Remake). How is that relevant to the differences in presentation between the Remake and OG?

 

[Ite]

Tifa is the best performed character. That is saying a lot considering how great the performances were. Cloud follows equally or close behind Tifa, with Aerith right behind. Those 3 were phenomenal.

Total tangeant, but from what I have heard I agree. There will always be a disconnect for me when pairing a dub with a mocap/animation in another language, one of the reasons why I play with voices off (other reasons: english VAs doing anime grunts makes me wince, and I’m too involved in the performance industry so I’m more immersed by scripts than by performers, and I can’t read LotR anymore without hearing Elijah Wood and I don’t want that to happen to FF7) but I have heard most of Remake in both Eng and JP now and it is pretty stellar across the board.

 

[LNK]

In the video clip shared by Odysseus some posts above we see Cloud remembering the scene that was told to us in the original game. Since it is a memory I think it belongs to the original timeline (if there are several timelines, there are elements in this sense). After that we can also imagine that Sephiroth didn't kill his father in the original game since nobody told us the scene in detail, but I don't see who would have done that in his place.

But that's the original game though. We haven't seen Sephiroth killing her dad in the remake timeline, so we don't for sure know that happens yet. This all reminds me of the discussion everyone had on here about the visions the characters were having at the end of the game.

 

[LNK]

Tifa is the best performed character. That is saying a lot considering how great the performances were. Cloud follows equally or close behind Tifa, with Aerith right behind. Those 3 were phenomenal.

Damn, I had Barret as my number 1 lol

 

[Theozilla]

But that's the original game though. We haven't seen Sephiroth killing her dad in the remake timeline, so we don't for sure know that happens yet. This all reminds me of the discussion everyone had on here about the visions the characters were having at the end of the game.

Yes we do, the Remake recreates that scene from OG as I posted earlier. While it is technically the aftermath, the OG only showed the aftermath too. Tifa’s father isn’t ever actively depicted being killed in either the OG or the Remake.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Okay, but Cloud is the one who remembers Tifa’s father being killed by Sephiroth in the OG too (technically the aftermath, but the point is that it’s the same as the Remake). How is that relevant to the differences in presentation between the Remake and OG?

I just want to say that maybe we feel more the potential lack of Tifa's script because it's Cloud who remembers the event at that moment. As you point out, this memory comes up later in the original game (and in a different context), so it's a specific desire of the writers to place it here. Maybe for us to feel a contrast. The memory of Sephiroth's killing might as well have reminded Cloud of the loss of his own mother.

But that's the original game though. We haven't seen Sephiroth killing her dad in the remake timeline, so we don't for sure know that happens yet. This all reminds me of the discussion everyone had on here about the visions the characters were having at the end of the game.

Yes, the changes in potential timelines can be profound. But the sequence of events in the Remake still seem to allow the overall story to continue as we know it. I think it's the same misunderstood story but told a little differently.

 

[OWA-2]

But see how you’re framing your criticism is different from how the op post of the thread framed their criticism. Yeah, small details like character reactions/moments are important contributing factors to the quality of a work, but the way the op comment/question is framed is acting like Tifa had no reaction to Sephiroth and that there was a plot hole on the writers/devs part, when in actuality Tifa does have a reaction to Sephiroth’s appearance. Now whether that reaction was sufficiently significant enough, or should have been given more focus is a separate criticism, and obviously different people will feel differently about it. But framing personal dissatisfaction with how something was presented as a plot hole and/or claiming the something in question didn’t happen at all, is a distinct different matter IMO.

What happened, is that Tifa's reaction was so mild, that I didn't even count it as a reaction to Sephiroth(just her being surprised by someone appearing there out of thin air). Her lack of reaction later(by not talking about it) didn't help either(to change my mind).

 

[LNK]

Yes we do, the Remake recreates that scene from OG as I posted earlier. While it is technically the aftermath, the OG only showed the aftermath too. Tifa’s father isn’t ever actively depicted being killed in either the OG or the Remake.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm trying to look at the remake through the lens of someone that never played the OG. Based on that little flashback, can a new player actually tell that Sephiroth killed her dad? I'm drawing a blank on any script alluding to it

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

At least a player who doesn't know the original game will understand that she lost someone dear to her because of Sephiroth and that she's going for a revenge.

 

[LNK]

At least a player who doesn't know the original game will understand that she lost someone dear to her because of Sephiroth and that she's going for a revenge.

That I can understand. Then it just takes me to what some of us have said, we all display different emotions to things all the time. Tifa not being super emotive is understandable

 

[Theozilla]

I just want to say that maybe we feel more the potential lack of Tifa's script because it's Cloud who remembers the event at that moment. As you point out, this memory comes up later in the original game (and in a different context), so it's a specific desire of the writers to place it here. Maybe for us to feel a contrast. The memory of Sephiroth's killing might as well have reminded Cloud of the loss of his own mother.


Yes, the changes in potential timelines can be profound. But the sequence of events in the Remake still seem to allow the overall story to continue as we know it. I think it's the same misunderstood story but told a little differently.

Actually no, the memory in the OG game is also remembered by Cloud at it was at the same point as it was during the Remake. During the raid on Reactor Number 5. The flashback to Tifa's father's death are presented virtually the exact same way in the OG and Remake, I don't know how I can make this clearer.

What happened, is that Tifa's reaction was so mild, that I didn't even count it as a reaction to Sephiroth(just her being surprised by someone appearing there out of thin air). Her lack of reaction later(by not talking about it) didn't help either(to change my mind).

Okay, but I hope you can understand that the presented reaction being insufficient/mediocre to you, isn't the same as there being literally "no reaction" at all, especially when in correlating scenes in the OG Tifa doesn't really talk about Sephiroth's return much either during the Midgar scenario.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm trying to look at the remake through the lens of someone that never played the OG. Based on that little flashback, can a new player actually tell that Sephiroth killed her dad? I'm drawing a blank on any script alluding to it

I mean they should be able to, if a person who plays the OG for the first time can tell from the OG flashback, then a person who only plays the Remake should be able to tell as well, as the scenes are virtually identical in actions and dialogue, the only difference being that the Remake cut the "Papa...Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?" line.
Like here are the scenes from both versions

 

[Clement Rage]

Do we actually have anyone that played the remake for the first time with no OG?

I don't think anyone is saying that because it's a video game, there's no need to care about dialogue, but the the game format has different needs. A game script is likely to be much longer than a play or movie, for instance, and they need to account for people outright not paying attention. Using movie rules or play rules doesn't necessarily get you the same results in stories that don't fit their molds, which is part of why Hollywood struggles so much with adaptations.

Likewise, a minute later in Dwarrowdelf we see Gimli seriously mourning Dwalin, a character we don't even know, and will not know until the Hobbit happens. But they still treat it with the respect and seriousness that their characters would feel, and because of that that is earnestly transmitted to the viewer. So when I see Tifa barely react to Sephiroth, I imagine Gimli discovering that Balin is dead and barely reacting, and I think about how much of a loss that would have been to the experience of that moment. Is it a detail? Yes. Has it been revealed that Balin is important to the story? No. And if the scene had never happened I can imagine people going "why do you care so much? what difference would it have made if Gimli had had a better reaction?". But I know how powerful the scene turned out to be because of that detail, and because of that I can mourn that same loss of potential when I see it somewhere not being taken in the first place.

I agree, but I've frequently seen fanbases go 'why are we focusing on this, when we don't know who he is and why he matters'.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Actually no, the memory in the OG game is also remembered by Cloud at it was at the same point as it was during the Remake. During the raid on Reactor Number 5. The flashback to Tifa's father's death are presented virtually the exact same way in the OG and Remake, I don't know how I can make this clearer.

Yes they are presented virtually the exact same way. The impact of their exposure may not be the same for the player because of their placement in a slightly different context (preceding the appearance of Sephiroth in Remake).

 

[Theozilla]

Yes they are presented virtually the exact same way. The impact of their exposure may not be the same for the player because of their placement in a slightly different context (preceding the appearance of Sephiroth in Remake).

Okay but the information provided in the scene and when and who to the scene occurs are virtually identical for the OG and Remake. If their impact on players are different because of the other actual differences between the Remake and OG, then those differences are the ones that should be pointed to, not elements that are essentially the same.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

In the video clip shared by Odysseus some posts above we see Cloud remembering the scene that was told to us in the original game. Since it is a memory I think it belongs to the original timeline (if there are several timelines, there are elements in this sense). After that we can also imagine that Sephiroth didn't kill his father in the original game since nobody told us the scene in detail, but I don't see who would have done that in his place.


You are right, I didn't pick the right words. It's the lack of script that we're talking about.


We also learn in the Remake that Tifa did not repress her impulses when she was a little girl, it did not seem to be in her temperament.
But I hear that she may have changed as she grew up and as a result of her trauma.

I disagree with this one, you can see that Tifa the older she gets the more she suppresses her feelings and thoughts.
The best example would be the water tower scene. When Cloud tells her that he will leave for Midgar we see that Tifa goes from happy/excited to sad/upset but she doesn't voice that, she doesn't tell him that it makes her sad that he will leave. And later when she meets Zack she doesn't tell him she wanted to see Cloud and hoped he was one of the Shinra guys coming to town even though we know she waited two years for him to come back. She is only ever able to voice these feelings and questions in a round about way.

So I say her repressing her emotions was always part of her personality (or at least since her mom bites the dust) and was just amplified with Nibelheim burning down and her ending up in Midgar.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Okay but the information provided in the scene and when and who to the scene occurs are virtually identical for the OG and Remake. If their impact on players are different because of the other actual differences between the Remake and OG, then those differences are the ones that should be pointed to, not elements that are essentially the same.

In OG, does the flashback in question appear in a different place than in Reactor 5 during the Midgar episode?

I disagree with this one, you can see that Tifa the older she gets the more she suppresses her feelings and thoughts.
The best example would be the water tower scene. When Cloud tells her that he will leave for Midgar we see that Tifa goes from happy/excited to sad/upset but she doesn't voice that, she doesn't tell him that it makes her sad that he will leave.

When I look at Tifa's body language during the tower scene, especially the part where she asks Cloud to promise something, to me there is no doubt that she still knows how to be offensive to try to get what she wants. If she doesn't tell him she's disappointed her silence speaks for itself which shows that she doesn't suppress her emotions. She knows how to show him that she cares about him and that she hopes he won't forget her. I find her as enterprising as when she calls little Cloud who snubs her in the aforementioned scene.

In the Remake I don't get the impression that Tifa represses her emotions at the sight of Sephiroth either, but rather that no memories related to this appearance seem to come back to her. I mean, as some people also think that her expressiveness doesn't seem strong enough and also that she doesn't talk about it afterwards.

Everyone evolves. However, there seems to be a clear difference between the Tifa before the Nibelheim incident and the Tifa after. This may be due to the trauma, I understand, but we mustn't forget that Tifa was in the presence of Jenova during this event and that one of Jenova's characteristics is her ability to take on the appearance of others, especially people that have died, what may have happened to Tifa that day.

And later when she meets Zack she doesn't tell him she wanted to see Cloud and hoped he was one of the Shinra guys coming to town even though we know she waited two years for him to come back. She is only ever able to voice these feelings and questions in a round about way.

This is the post-Nibelheim Tifa telling it, so in keeping with my assumption that Tifa is no longer Tifa after this incident, I question what she says.

 

[Eerie]

In OG, does the flashback in question appear in a different place than in Reactor 5 during the Midgar episode?

Theozilla just told you it did happen at the same time in both OG and Remake.... I mean it's written in the message...

When I look at Tifa's body language during the tower scene, especially the part where she asks Cloud to promise something, to me there is no doubt that she still knows how to be offensive to try to get what she wants. If she doesn't tell him she's disappointed her silence speaks for itself which shows that she doesn't suppress her emotions. She knows how to show him that she cares about him and that she hopes he won't forget her. I find her as enterprising as when she calls little Cloud who snubs her in the aforementioned scene.

The whole scene at the well is about things that are untold. The promise is a way for Tifa to make Cloud promise that they will meet again - it is why it's such a strong theme between the two, both in the OG and in Remake, hell even in AC/C it's still there. Why are things untold? Because they both suppress their feelings. Tifa *is* upset that Cloud leaves. But she doesn't tell him that. She goes in round about ways because that's her thing.

In the Remake I don't get the impression that Tifa represses her emotions at the sight of Sephiroth either, but rather that no memories related to this appearance seem to come back to her. I mean, as some people also think that her expressiveness doesn't seem strong enough and also that she doesn't talk about it afterwards.

Tifa reacts, her eyes widen and she steps back, several steps even, which is... something she usually doesn't do. Her whole body language screams that something is scaring her away from even Cloud for whom she's so worried about. Plus it's something very Tifa-esque to see something and internalise it *a lot* before acting. This is why she's never told Cloud about Nibelheim until Sephiroth manipulated her and Cloud. And yet the fact that there was something wrong with Cloud is the reason why she stays with him, choses to believe in him, etc. But you don't see that in the OG, you only understand it after Cloud falls at the Northern Crater. I mean I love Tifa but holy moly, the time she spends to internalise this is... L O N G.

So yes, she's scared away, but she needs time to process Sephiroth being alive. "Who did this" yeah everyone is like "Sephiroth, duh", but she's still processing and internalising Sephiroth at this point of the game. They don't have the time to stop and think, remember, and Tifa needs to stop and think.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

Ok, I am not quite sure what we are discussing here, but I will try to tag along.

The way I see it, Tifa shows reaction. She is both surprised and shocked at the same time when Sephiroth appears in front of them. As if she is thinking "No, it couldn't be?. It is not possible?!".. She also looks frighten and steps back away. It's been few years now since the Nibelheim Incident and she must have kept telling herself that Sephiroth is dead as it was believed and moved on with her life.

Remember until this point, she believed Sephiroth to be dead. Imagen you seeing someone who you thought to be dead for the first time again. I once had a dream of my childhood bestfriend who died from cancer back in 2013. I dreamt that he stood outside of where I used to live before. When I saw him there I was shocked. I was unable to speak at first, but walked up to him and asked him how he is doing and how he was alive. Then I answered my own question by telling him that this is just a dream and he nodded. My point is that I found Tifas reaction very normal and believable in that scene. As if she saw a ghost.

I am not sure what kind of reaction people were expecting here, but for me there is no need for more than what we got in that scene. Back in 1997 we had limitations, no voice acting, no facial expressions. Only the characters funny body language and TEXT to read. So they had to tell much of the characters feelings and expressions through the funny body languages and through speech (text). With the REMAKE, a story and a characters feelings can now be told through more than that. We now have voice acting + facial expressions + realistic body language, etc.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Guys, I'm not asking for Tifa to scream in anger to the heavens, or piss her pants in fear. ? I'm just asking for the camera to foccus on her face for a second, and show her expression and emotions(just like they did with Aerith). Something indicating there is more than we know so far in Remake, between her and Sephiroth.

But ... what you have described is precisely what happens. The camera centers her face in the frame, she gasps, her eyes go wide, then she takes a step back in subdued terror.

You'll also notice that no one else appears similarly disarmed in the moment she's stepping back. Red assumes a fighting stance, Barret actually takes a step forward, and Aerith maintains her same stance while her expression hardens.

Also, given that Tifa's reaction happens less than 10 seconds (literally; I checked) after the flashback depicting her shouting over her father's body and picking up Sephiroth's sword, even the most casual viewer should infer the intent to intimate some further connection between Tifa and Cloud's nemesis.

This is the post-Nibelheim Tifa telling it, so in keeping with my assumption that Tifa is no longer Tifa after this incident, I question what she says.

It wasn't post-Nibelheim that @a_apple 2.0 was referring to -- but even if it were, Tifa is not and has never been Jenova (except for arguably that scene at the Reunion when Sephiroth tricks the person Cloud safeguarded with the Black Materia into bringing it back to Cloud). I don't know where you get some of your notions about the story, but this is as outlandish as they've ever been.

 

[LNK]

Actually no, the memory in the OG game is also remembered by Cloud at it was at the same point as it was during the Remake. During the raid on Reactor Number 5. The flashback to Tifa's father's death are presented virtually the exact same way in the OG and Remake, I don't know how I can make this clearer.


Okay, but I hope you can understand that the presented reaction being insufficient/mediocre to you, isn't the same as there being literally "no reaction" at all, especially when in correlating scenes in the OG Tifa doesn't really talk about Sephiroth's return much either during the Midgar scenario.


I mean they should be able to, if a person who plays the OG for the first time can tell from the OG flashback, then a person who only plays the Remake should be able to tell as well, as the scenes are virtually identical in actions and dialogue, the only difference being that the Remake cut the "Papa...Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?" line.
Like here are the scenes from both versions

Thank you!

 

[KindOfBlue]

See, Tifa not having the level of reaction some people would have liked getting conflated into her being a different Tifa, or having her back story retconned (we still see her react to her father's death, as I showed previously,) having amnesia, the writers forgetting their own story, or whatever is exactly why I believe this whole thing is getting blown monstrously out of proportion.

Not being happy with the presentation is fine. I don't agree, mind you, but it's fine. This is something else and it's getting far too read into for what it is, in my opinion. I was also kind of taken aback by the insinuation that someone who disagrees must be trolling, but that was a lot of posts ago now.

I’ve got it. The reason Tifa doesn’t seem to react strongly to Sephiroth is because we’re in an alternate timeline where Aerith is from the future and so after killing fate, she was able to go back in time to the Nibelheim incident to warn Tifa about Sephiroth, thus saving Tifa’s father. Open and shut case.

The sense of discrepancy in Tifa's reaction felt by some may indeed be heightened by the fact that it is Cloud who remembers Tifa's rage at the murder of her father. This would be another clumsy move on the part of the writers on top of Tifa's potentially uninspired acting.

But we barely see Tifa’s reaction in the first place so I don’t think we can even fairly call it a discrepancy, we would actually have to see more of her reaction until we find something out-of-character as we don’t see anything particularly unusual based on what was shown. Schrodinger’s Tifa-Reaction-To-Seeing-Her-Father’s-Killer, let’s call it.

I don’t see where Tifa’s performance is “uninspired.” I played with voices off, but I’ve now seen that scene in three languages. The voice performances are wonderful. And while Tifa’s mocap is directed to be a bit meek for a brawler imo, it’s a deliberate and consistent character choice.

The only way one might think the performance is less than stellar is a lack of script for Tifa’s actor to “perform.” There’s no dialogue. There is a strict emotional hierarchy in performance: facial < blocking < speech < song < dance/aria. An impulse that moves your face is less strong than an impulse that moves your body. (I don’t know where ‘anime grunt’ falls on this hierarchy, that wasn’t part of my degree I’d probably put it with facial.)

Tifa famously quashes her impulses, so I really can see the other side of this debate. Moreover, Tifa moves her face and her body — it’s not dialogue, but it is written there in the script: Tifa sees Sephiroth, her eyes widen, she lets go of Cloud and takes a step back. She lets go of Cloud, which is also telling. I was wrong in my earlier estimation of “just eyebrows” after watching this scene a jillion times.

Where I (and others) may get mixed up or feel like the game is forsaking her is that in the OG, she has actual lines of dialogue:



It’s easy —natural, even — to see her new script as an emotional downgrade. But the scene in Remake is totally different. Sephiroth is right there.

It’s pretty fascinating to hear of somebody who played with voices off, especially with how surprisingly subtle the performances are even in the English dub. I’d imagine some nuance could be lost in not experiencing the game as intended, especially when compared to the original being entirely text-based and not having the benefits of modern animations and voice acting.

Also, anime grunts are a spiritual impulse manifesting all manner of physical expression and fueled by the collective life energy of otaku from across the fabric of space and time.

Why are things untold? Because they both suppress their feelings. Tifa *is* upset that Cloud leaves. But she doesn't tell him that. She goes in round about ways because that's her thing.

(10 years later)

Tifa: “Cloud...Words aren’t the only thing—”

Cloud:

 

[Theozilla]

Also, given that Tifa's reaction happens less than 10 seconds (literally; I checked) after the flashback depicting her shouting over her father's body and picking up Sephiroth's sword, even the most casual viewer should infer the intent to intimate some further connection between Tifa and Cloud's nemesis.

Are you talking about a different flashback? Because the one with Tifa’s father occurs wheh they are in Reactor 5, not when they are in the Shinra building before the Jenova chamber.

 

[Odysseus]

Are you talking about a different flashback? Because the one with Tifa’s father occurs wheh they are in Reactor 5, not when they are in the Shinra building before the Jenova chamber.

Remake shows a part of it again just before Sephiroth appears.