Do You Think We Will See Something This Year?

Smoothie King

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pat
I’m going to put on my optimist cap here for a minute. We’re halfway through 2022. A year from now we’ll be halfway through 2023. Assuming the game comes out in 2024, and their marketing push for the first release was roughly eleven months, I think we’re going to get an announcement relatively soon. I think it will be more than a logo. It will be a legit teaser trailer where we see our party in some sort of situation.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I expect an announcement in December of 2022 :monster:
Yeah, l am expecting mostly an update on Ever Crisis this summer and maybe a mention of Part 2 being worked on as usual, but nothing substantial. And then maybe a more substantial teaser/update with at least screen-caps if not video in December of 2022. And then finally a really big update a month or two after FFXVI is released.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I’m not sure how the apparent impact of continuing the journey without Aerith uninterrupted would really make a difference to those of us who are already aware of her original fate, to me it really seems like the somber note to end an installment on.

I like the idea of ending on that hopeless feeling of Aerith being dead, Cloud’s missing, Meteor’s coming and the Weapons are loose, but I do have doubts about them putting that much story in one game. Maybe end at Forgotten Capital and briefly flash forward to Northern Crater before expanding on it in the following game?

I have a question for everyone:

Do you think that ending of the last part of the entire FF7R saga will conclude with the same ending that we got in the OG? We defeat Sephiroth, Cloud Defeats him with Omnislash, Meteor coming down, Holy not working, Lifestream comes out, Flash to White, last shot of Aerith?
I’ve had the idea of an epilogue taking place years after FF7 as a sort of “where are they now” for a while but at any rate, based on FF7R so far, I’m sure we’ll still get recreations of the OG’s iconic scenes along with new expanded material
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I shouldn’t bite, but c’mon. The final boss of Part 1 was KILLING THE TIME GOD so that Zack can come back to life. If I had posted that in 2019 you would have called me beyond-the-pale pessimistic. I won’t believe a single thing they have to say about being faithful. If anything aligns going forward, I’ll consider it an accident.

You're not wrong. I don't think they're straight up lying, but they're stretching the meaning of "faithful" trying to please two different groups of people. From "Remake" really meaning "not a remaster" and "has a cute unrevealed double meaning" to Mr. Keeping-It-Faithful himself greenlighting a Sephiroth battle on a whim.

I expect much of the rest of the series to be like the end to FF7R, pantomiming the original journey - "What now?" "Sephiroth is out there, I have to settle the score" - well yeah, superficially the same thing, but means something else entirely. (Personally I'm on the gimme-something-different side, and it definitely feels different enough to satisfy what I wanted. If I'm loving it this much it can't be all that sameish.)
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
My current prediction:

The story will go off the rails basically immediately. Right after Cloud tells his story probably. Forget your timeline theories, Zack is here, he's now, and they're gonna meet him sooner than later. Cloud's mental fuckery will compensate for his presence better than you'd think. Also Wedge is alive, your camera mod be damned. I will put money down on that lol. The general sequence of locations the party visits and much of what happens therein won't be thaaaat different, aside from Zack being around for much of it and general changes in presentation, at least for a while. The larger story will, of course, have a completely new agenda compared to the original game, as this is a Sephiroth with very different knowledge and goals.

I can't yet imagine quite where the plot will totally diverge, but it will eventually. "Remake", as was teased, means something different from its normal video game context. I think it's very literal, and describes what happened in Part 1's finale. The world was remade, Dog mascot design overwritten, threads of Destiny torn asunder, the path originally taken very willingly discarded, and an Unknown Journey before us afterwards. The reality is that this is a sequel story, and I feel like at some point people are just ignoring what's right there in the text because it's not what they want.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
How about Zack shows up while Cloud’s telling the story. But doesn’t interrupt and just furtively side eyes with Tifa. Now that’s faithful and surprising imho.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well the story didn't radically diverge up to the Cargo Ship, so it can't be "basically immediately." Our preview of what's ahead for Part 2 (Trace of Two Pasts) doesn't exhibit a scenario where Zack seemingly is around at all. In fact, Aerith still treats him as dead.

And when combined with repeated emphatic statements like:

Toriyama-san stresses that they aren’t making a “completely different game,” and when it comes to major characters and plot revelations the team will “draw the line” to ensure core elements and iconic moments are accurately recreated.

Not quite sure how that squares with a story being "willingly discarded" and made into a sequel. :monster:
 
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OWA-2

Pro Adventurer
My current prediction:

The story will go off the rails basically immediately. Right after Cloud tells his story probably. Forget your timeline theories, Zack is here, he's now, and they're gonna meet him sooner than later. Cloud's mental fuckery will compensate for his presence better than you'd think. Also Wedge is alive, your camera mod be damned. I will put money down on that lol. The general sequence of locations the party visits and much of what happens therein won't be thaaaat different, aside from Zack being around for much of it and general changes in presentation, at least for a while. The larger story will, of course, have a completely new agenda compared to the original game, as this is a Sephiroth with very different knowledge and goals.

I can't yet imagine quite where the plot will totally diverge, but it will eventually. "Remake", as was teased, means something different from its normal video game context. I think it's very literal, and describes what happened in Part 1's finale. The world was remade, Dog mascot design overwritten, threads of Destiny torn asunder, the path originally taken very willingly discarded, and an Unknown Journey before us afterwards. The reality is that this is a sequel story, and I feel like at some point people are just ignoring what's right there in the text because it's not what they want.

That goes against what the developers said in multiple interviews.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
That goes against what the developers said in multiple interviews.
Depends on how you interpret what they say lol. I'm sure the game will still hit many key moments from the OG because there's not a lot of reason for it not to, but that doesn't mean the context will be the same. Those "Core elements and iconic moments" will still happen, but the reasons why and what surrounds them may be very different. The party is still railroaded in where they can go, and as of now their goals are the same, but that doesn't mean things won't get progressively more different, especially considering Sephiroth on his second go around of all this.

Here's how I've been seeing it lately. The whispers are trying to keep things in-line with what happened before, but we destroy them. Aerith, who knows far more than the others, is hesitant to go through with it because she knows what doing so implies. She calls it "Freedom". Freedom from what? From the story we know. Then you have thee party getting visions of the events of the OG as they battle the whispers, and Red XIII flat out calls them "visions of tomorrow if we fail here today" (this is what I refer to when I say the original plot was willingly discarded). Coupled with the "Unknown Journey" tagline, I feel like the game couldn't be making it any more obvious that the plot will be different this time if it tried. If you want to talk interviews, it was said that Biggs being shown alive was something planned early on, and it was described as something that was supposed to make players feel "unsettled". Why might that be? As the interview says, it's because that's not how it's supposed to be lol.

As for Zack, seeing what people think is going on with him has more and more started to feel like plain ol' denial to me. "He's a ghost in the life stream" "He's in another timeline" "third thing", all of it serves to tuck him neatly into a corner where he won't get in the way of the OG story, because people don't want him to be there. What does the ending really show you though? What's the take away? Zack is alive. He won. To think he's not gonna get his big puppy mug involved in the story ASAP is just wrong lol. The lingering question of what became of his version of Cloud is something I don't know how to account for yet, but that's the only snag here.

"But what about traces of two pasts though?"

The snippets of the present are fairly short, and only the Cargo Ship one has any real implications. First of all, it's not a cargo ship anymore in TOTP, it's a luxury ferry, so there's a change:

"Aerith Gainsborough was on Shinra Ferry No. 8, and like her friends, she was wearing a Shinra’s military uniform. It was her first time on the sea, as well as on a ship. The ferry connecting Junon and Costa De Sol was unexpectedly lavish. Enticed by curiosity, she looked around the ferry. However, the wealthy passengers were not welcoming towards troopers."

Second, the present day scenes are just between Aerith and Tifa until Cloud shows up at the end, so it doesn't give much info on what's happening with the larger party. Third, this is the Zack mention:

“You can talk to me about everything, okay?” Tifa assured her.

Aerith was delighted by her compassion. She wanted to tell her more.

“Well then, next up is a big one!”

“You gotta be kidding me. There’s something bigger than whatever you said?”

“For that, you’re right. It’s about my first love.”

“Oh, that’s definitely something big!”

―It sounded like someone walked into the cargo hold. Tifa seemed to notice it too. They put their index finger to their lips and looked at each other. The sound of footsteps was coming closer, coming from the other side of the cargo wall. Tifa moved noiselessly to the gap in the cargo. It looked like she was waiting for the owner of those footsteps.

The time passed slowly but surely, and the footsteps came to a stop.

“It’s me.”

It was the voice of Cloud Strife. Tifa’s expression softened.

“I’ll tell you next time. About the story of my first love,” Aerith whispered to her.

Cloud walked in front of them and looked at both of them with a dubious look. He made a face as though he was investigating them, and he looked ridiculous. Aerith and Tifa burst into laughter, trying to keep their silence.

Obviously that says nothing about him being alive and present, and it'd be weird to be so coy about it if he was around, but at the same time she's being an awful lot more jovial about it than she ever was in the OG. She's excited to talk about her old boyfriend, not treating him like he's dead lol.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Honestly, I'm just confused with the whole thing. The game itself slaps you over the head with 'everything is changing, terrifying freedom, zack is alive somewhere, the unknown journey is coming' and the dev interviews are like 'oh don't worry everything will be the same bro, lol'.

Who knows what the hell is going on.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The interviews do not leave much to interpretation, nor are they ambiguous with their intentions. What else is Toriyama speaking of when he says they intend to preserve "major characters and plot revelations?" There's specifically 1 significant plot revelation ahead, and we know what that is. What's the ambiguity/cheek in this?

She calls it "Freedom". Freedom from what? From the story we know.

No, she says "boundless terrifying freedom. Like a great neverending sky." She compares the freedom to the sky, something dangerous and unknown. And it's not a positive, liberating context. Because..

Nomura from FFVII Ultimania said:
For Aerith, the sky symbolizes sadness. The people who were dear to her, such as Zack and her mother Ifalna, had all returned to the sky, and the sky that she sees above her in the slums was covered by Shinra too. The calamity that destroyed the Ancients, Jenova, also fell from the sky. All of these incidents remind Aerith of the sky, which is why she says she hates it.

Their hope for changing the future is to defeat Sephiroth who they know, thanks to Aerith, is a dangerous threat to the planet and they think has damned the planet to a catastrophic future, locked in forever. That's literally what they said was their intentions for fighting him. The risk to this might change them or the planet forever. However they are ignorant of the fact, that's not true. Anyone knowing FFVII's conclusion knows this, and then they fail to kill him.

Then you have thee party getting visions of the events of the OG as they battle the whispers, and Red XIII flat out calls them "visions of tomorrow if we fail here today" (this is what I refer to when I say the original plot was willingly discarded)

Toriyama addresses this in the Ultimania Plus. Red XIII's long lifespan and limited present knowledge leaves him unable to fully understand, comprehend and realize the context of the information he gets about the future. He's not some reliable, all-knowing narrator and he wrongly assumes that him running in the wasteland is some sort of bad future because he doesn't realize the context of 500 years later. That's not the meaning of that scene with the Harbinger at all.

And if Zack were alive, it would frankly not be a story of Aerith's "first" love. Aerith wouldn't have felt the sadness regarding the sky leaving Midgar. There would be no context of conclusion in her words. Her love of Zack wouldn't be related to being just the "first," like a closed chapter of her life. Their love would be current. That's not how someone would speak, having discovered someone they loved who was thought to be dead, was alive again.

Honestly, I'm just confused with the whole thing. The game itself slaps you over the head with 'everything is changing, terrifying freedom, zack is alive somewhere, the unknown journey is coming' and the dev interviews are like 'oh don't worry everything will be the same bro, lol'.

Because that's literally not what was said or happening in Ch18. Implied guard rails of "destiny" being removed, doesn't solidify destiny has been fundamentally changed. The party members did not defeat Sephiroth, which was the crux of them upending destiny in the first place.

They didn't go into the Singularity with the intention of murdering the Whispers or "fate", they went there to stop Sephiroth. And they did not, meaning quite literally, the future hasn't changed. And surprisingly, Sephiroth revealed to Cloud he isn't trying to necessarily "destroy" the planet; he's trying to save it from an end many, many years in the future.

You're taking a tagline as literal gospel, ignoring the vast reams of context associated to the scenery, and then what the writers have stated was the context of everything else. Folks seemingly going Death of the Author here, while ignoring the reality that the work is still in progress, and the writers are stating quite consistently and emphatically, the direction they're going with it. Repeatedly for 2 years. From FFVII-R Intermission to Trace of Two Pasts, the direction they're going is kinda staring us in the face. It's not indecipherable or incomprehensible.
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Aerith can still be excited about talking about her old boyfriend while still treating him as someone who has been missing for 5 years (remember even if Aerith sensed Zack dying in Crisis Core, she can still easily be in denial about it).

And I don’t think anyone is denying that the alive!Zack is a plot point that will be addressed in future installments, but there are so many ways that it can be addressed while the skeleton of the OG is still being followed for the main characters and overall story (and an important element of which is Cloud not knowing about his actual past until after Meteor is summoned).

Like the fact that it’s a ferry ship instead of a cargo ship is a perfect example of what people mean about the general outline of the OG being followed but specifics being changed: the party are still disguised in Shinra military uniforms and are taking a boat from Junon to Costa del Sol, but instead of a cargo ship it is a luxury ferry (probably because Rufus is traveling on it).

And an alive!Zack joining up with the party and basically “spoiling” everyone on Cloud’s real past is not something that is congruent with what the Remake has been doing so far and/or what the devs have been stating what they are planning on doing.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
An alive!Zack joining up with the party and basically “spoiling” everyone on Cloud’s real past is not something that is congruent with what the Remake has been doing so far and/or what the

That's the "plot revelation." And yes, they're not going boldly erase one of the core thematic reveals and plot twists of the entire FFVII story just to have a near gameplay Cloud copy join the party somehow after Kalm. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's bizarre in it's purpose and pretty much incomprehensible scenario plotting.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Because that's literally not what was said or happening in Ch18. Implied guard rails of "destiny" being removed, doesn't solidify destiny has been fundamentally changed.
So there's a lot to reply to, but I think this sums up my issue with how people handle this argument.

"Just because the game made a big dumb show of how we're defying destiny and the future is terrifyingly open doesn't mean the future story isn't just gonna limply crawl back to the OG story but a little different!"

Ite has said something to this effect before I think, and I have to agree, if that's what the plan was all along, then the ending of Remake 1 is really stupid and pointless lol. What a bunch of limp dick developers to make an ending like that and then do basically nothing with it but minorly change a few things. I just know that's not what's going to happen, NKN would never be content with it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It's "stupid and pointless" if your only determining metric of meaning for those Ch18 scenes is "how much has FATE been DEFIED now???" When that's not the only or even most crucial theme revealed about what the Remake is confronting or talking about there, at all.

A shocking revelation about Chapter 18 is that Sephiroth holds an almost sentimental attachment to his "precious memories" of the past of FFVII. The reality is that Sephiroth is orchestrating an elaborate means of clinging onto a never-ending FFVII, one where he nor Cloud will never end. The fact Sephiroth's genuine goal and desire is the perpetuation of the Planet's life long past it's death, is a huge weird, red flag. And it should be abundantly clear why that runs contrary to the established themes baked into FFVII by Toriyama, Nomura, Nojima and Kitase. Especially in light of the themes behind the universes of life and death embodying Cloud and Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation.

A story based on "loss" that peers into what happens when one makes trade offs to dodge said losses, is also pretty obvious and important. If you choose to find that stupid and pointless, that's your choice. But that's clearly what's at stake from what we see in Ch18. And it certainly holds more coherency and established thematic meaning than just trying to shoehorn Zack in a roll that's contrary to his existence, or anchor Genesis into the plot in some disjointed attempt to make Crisis Core 2: Electric Boogaloo.

What does that do? What kind of courage is that?
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Except Kitase (and Nojima?) had said that their favorite part of FFVII is Cloud rediscovering himself in the Lifestream with Tifa. I doubt they are going scrap recreating some of their iconic and favorite scenes which hinge on Cloud not being prematurely “spoiled” about his identity.

And if you think the Remake sticking to the general outline of the OG but just changing the meat/details (plus having additive stuff like alive!Zack), makes Chapter 18 of part pointless, I don’t know what to tell you other than I disagree.
And I think it’s a little dishonest to claim Kitase, Nojima, and/or Nomura would never (or have never) do style over substance for the sake of spectacle and style.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Check your DMs when you have a minute, Theo.

And if you think the Remake sticking to the general outline of the OG but just changing the meat/details (plus having additive stuff like alive!Zack)

I think we got some wires crossed here. I DO think the general course of events, as far as locations they go to and the order in which they reach them will go unchanged until probably what would be Disc 2 material, and the key moments that happen there will still happen. Like, Barret will confront Dyne, Nanaki will go see his dad, Dolphins will hopefully be ridden and Rufus' parade will happen in silly fashion. A meteor will probably be summoned and giant kaiju will be unleashed. I just think the bottom level core events and driving forces will change dramatically, especially in regards to Cloud, Sephiroth, and Aerith. Zack being in the main group makes this inevitable lol, and I'm very sure he will be. I think things will get more and more different as the Remake goes, but it's not like they won't go to the Gold Saucer or North Crater. Also genesis will definitely appear, get hype @Roundhouse.

I'll say, another big reason I don't think it'll be a proper retelling of the OG is because of Ever Crisis. It was literally called "Another possibility of a Remake" and seems very 1 to 1. I feel like it exists so new players will be able to appreciate the difference in Remake's story.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
So again, what does changing the main character of FFVII-R do for the story? And what's the fundamental purpose and themes behind making a Crisis Core Remake project?

I DO think the general course of events, as far as locations they go to and the order in which they reach them will go unchanged

I just think the bottom level core events and driving forces will change dramatically, especially in regards to Cloud, Sephiroth, and Aerith. Zack being in the main group makes this inevitable lol, and I'm very sure he will be

These two intentions cannot co-exist or reconcile with themselves, and it should be pretty obvious why.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
So again, what does changing the main character of FFVII-R do for the story? What's the fundamental purpose and themes behind making a Crisis Core Remake project?
Well, I'm not psychic, so that's to be seen. Cloud is still the main character, it won't be the Zack show, but until I see where they're going with this I can't say what the "point" is. I just know this isn't telling the same story, and I believe it will serve as the finale to the whole compilation. Sephiroth and Aerith having future memories basically necessitates that. I assume Zack is back because they want him involved in that wrap up.
 

Golden Ear

Pro Adventurer
AKA
M. Prod
I think they will basically re-create everything and keep character arcs throughout the entirety of the saga. I just think they are going add to or twist some of the big plot beats to give a new surprise on things. I don't really care to theorize specifically on what they'll do necessarily because there so much potential but rather just let myself be surprised.

But if I have to make a prediction concerning the Zack stuff I think they will keep him as an ongoing mystery throughout part 2, still keeping us in the dark about where he is and what will happen with him. My guess is we will get a DLC for him between parts 2 and 3 and he will become more integrated with the overarching narrative in part 3 and possibly more towards half way through it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Cloud's entire story and character arc in FFVII hinges on Zack's omission from his memories and present. So to say Cloud's somehow still going to be the main character if Zack's part of the main party alongside him does not make sense, nor hold any coherent narrative meaning other than showcasing Zack for...reasons.

Cloud's insecurity and meltdown happen in what context then? How? What is Zack doing here while it happens? What is the theme and meaning for it all? Because there has to be one. There's a clear role for Zack to play but if you put Zack in the present with Cloud, then you've eclipsed the use of Cloud in his most memorable and widely regarded context the writers repeated numerous times, is their favorite part of FFVII. Nevermind the Lifestream sequence with Tifa.

Sephiroth's future memories are in the context of him wishing to perpetuate an FFVII that never ends, while upending the inevitable destiny of death that inevitably comes for all things, even the planet. Aerith wishes to protect what's important to her and do all she can to safeguard life on the planet and live life without regrets. And then that leaves Cloud. What's Cloud's purpose if he's left unresolved and given Zack alongside himself instead?
 
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