Do You Think We Will See Something This Year?

[cold_spirit]

Advent Children is far to too important to SE and the FFVII mythos for SE to scrap

Advent Children still is a gateway for people to get into Final Fantasy VII (or Final Fantasy in general).

I love the movie, but Advent Children came out in 2005. It's turning 17 years old this year. It ain't bringing in any new fans. Like, new FF fans aren't talking about how they just played FFX-2, which is from the same era. The world has moved on. In fact, Advent Children is beginning to look dated, especially in the facial capture department. Now, let's say that each remake part will take about 4 years of development time. If we do, we'd see the end of this project in either 2028 or 2032, depending on how many parts one thinks there'll be. 2028 will either be the end of the PS5's lifespan, or at the start of the PS6's.

Advent Children will be sooo old by then. Real-time graphics will have far surpassed it. In many ways they already have, such as with lighting and texture quality. They aren't going to end Remake with a promo saying "You've played the remake, now check out the ground-breaking and antiquated sequel, Advent Children! Now celebrating its 25th year anniversary in 8k!" Considering Remake was announced in 2015, that'd be quite an unsatisfying way to end a 13-17 year long saga. Buyers won't be interested (especially because like, public opinion of Advent Children isn't even that great).

This insistence that the remake project must be beholden to such an artifact is perplexing to me. Now, I already know where this discussion is going. "Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima would never disregard their own work like that!" They aren't. They don't need a narrative hook to honor Advent Children. The movie is still and will always be the original game's sequel. Its impact is seen all over Remake's presentation and Remake even directly references it. However, Remake is clearly going in a different direction.

 

[Eerie]

Look, they're still using art from ACC to make coasters in the SE FF café. I'm sorry but as antique that AC/C is, and even though I deeply resent *how* it tells its story, AC was a turning point for SE and it's important in the Compilation. It's not going anywhere. Hell they even re-released it last year so yeah.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not how they perceive or weigh AC's worth or importance at all. I would think the 25th anniversary event of FFVII would have shown that. It doesn't matter how old that film is. Considering the amount of time, effort, energy and from their perspective, love, went into making their first major motion picture, I'm more than certain they are loathe to ever abandon such a work from their adaption narrative canon. It's just not going to happen.

If they're not even willing to abandon/rewrite Before Crisis, an older, lesser available episodic cell phone service game they published from even longer ago, why would they let go of AC because it's "old?" What buyers think/perceive is not the metric these writers base their decisions on. Ever. Look at Kingdom Hearts. Look at Final Fantasy in general. They're not jettisoning anything because of age. The Turks Side Story and inclusion in the Remake even shows it's still relevant. Their entire perspective with their work is antithetical to that concept over it's "age." If anything, that only appreciates it's value. From Nobou's work scoring that soundtrack, to it being Nomura's first instance at directing something himself, it's value goes beyond even just it being the follow up to FFVII's story. Really don't know how people reach these conclusions! They've already commented on wanting the Remake series to align with the Compilation, so how is this even a question?

 

[Odysseus]

Advent Children can be reexperienced in mobile game form just in time for you to appreciate how it influences the remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think you're overselling the purpose/scope of Ever Crisis, because for one, it's a gacha game that will only cover certain portions of the entries of the Compilation and FFVII it decides to cover, and as seen with every mobile game S-E creates...

It's on borrowed time. It will not last forever. Because it is a mobile game. Even Nomura himself said that Ever Crisis was never meant as a substitute for any of the entries.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah I wouldn’t go as far as thinking SE is making AC totally obsolete. Even if Remake’s future doesn’t lead to AC and DoC directly, being aware of those stories allows for a greater appreciation for how those elements can be recontextualized in Remake.

If that is in fact the case, SE basically gets to have their cake and eat it too. They can take Remake in whatever direction they feel but then also say “but to completely understand why we did this, check out AC”.

I'm not gonna totally unload all my ideas on you but in Discord me and Obs came up with some fun ideas for how to use Deepground in the Remake. My favorite was having each of them guard a Huge Materia, with the end goal being recruiting Weiss (who is his post secret dirge ending self via time memory shit) to help finish off Sephiroth for good by going down to Deepground and beating him up. Genesis would be recruited at around the same time since he's also down there lol. Shalua, already know to have worked with Avalanche in the past, could be in an Avalanche cell with Biggs and Wedge (still alive I bet $5) and help with this by getting Shelke on Cloud and Co.'s side.

I’d definitely be down for that, I think in general there’s a fair few segments where Remake could probably get away with injecting Compilation material especially in disc 2

 

[Theozilla]

@Theozilla
The definition I was using for Rebuild is just that the original's narrative is canon to the adaptation. Since at the very least FFVII is the basis for the timeline the whispers try to keep intact, I don't consider it a remake and consider Rebuild (and other recent bait remakes) the apt comparison. Whether FFVII and FFVIIR end up perfectly exchangeable in two separate cohesive chronologies is a separate matter.

Anyway, I don't have strong feelings either way whether it will lead into AC. I just don't consider it counterintuitive for Remake to not do that.

Yes, the Whispers are protecting some nebulous concept of "fate/destiny" and that meta-textually is obviously referring to the OG FFVII, but I wouldn't personally say that is the same as the OG being literally canon to the Remake in the same/similar way the NGE TV series and The End of Evangelion movie were to the Rebuild films (in that they were literally previous in-universe cycles that had happened before). At least I don't think that can be canonically stated yet, hence why I think it is erroneous to consider the Remake project an apt comparison to the Rebuild films.

I love the movie, but Advent Children came out in 2005. It's turning 17 years old this year. It ain't bringing in any new fans. Like, new FF fans aren't talking about how they just played FFX-2, which is from the same era. The world has moved on. In fact, Advent Children is beginning to look dated, especially in the facial capture department. Now, let's say that each remake part will take about 4 years of development time. If we do, we'd see the end of this project in either 2028 or 2032, depending on how many parts one thinks there'll be. 2028 will either be the end of the PS5's lifespan, or at the start of the PS6's.

Advent Children will be sooo old by then. Real-time graphics will have far surpassed it. In many ways they already have, such as with lighting and texture quality. They aren't going to end Remake with a promo saying "You've played the remake, now check out the ground-breaking and antiquated sequel, Advent Children! Now celebrating its 25th year anniversary in 8k!" Considering Remake was announced in 2015, that'd be quite an unsatisfying way to end a 13-17 year long saga. Buyers won't be interested (especially because like, public opinion of Advent Children isn't even that great).

This insistence that the remake project must be beholden to such an artifact is perplexing to me. Now, I already know where this discussion is going. "Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima would never disregard their own work like that!" They aren't. They don't need a narrative hook to honor Advent Children. The movie is still and will always be the original game's sequel. Its impact is seen all over Remake's presentation and Remake even directly references it. However, Remake is clearly going in a different direction.

I don't think that the Remake project will literally end saying like "To be continued in Advent Children" (though I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility since that's exactly what they did with the OG during the ending of Crisis Core), nor do I think the Remake project will be overly beholden to AC/C and DC, as heck the previous Compilation entires weren't even beholden to themselves either, what with all of their own inconsistencies and variations between them. But as others have stated, AC/C (and the Compilation in general) is still relevant/not abandoned to SE and I don't see them disregarding it.
I do genuinely expect by the time the Remake project is done, that it's ending will still be able to flow into AC/C as smoothly as the OG did by itself; heck maybe even moreso with all the Compilation references the Remake has already included so far. Like I wouldn't be surprised if Rufus' secret escape chute ends up being directly or indirectly referenced in the final Remake installment, so any Remake only players will by default assume Rufus has survived to the end (unlike OG players where the majority of them understandably assumed Rufus to be dead and gone until AC was released).

 

[Makoeyes987]

nor do I think the Remake project will be overly beholden to AC/C and DC, as heck the previous Compilation entires weren't even beholden to themselves either

Hell, I'll think it then

Because they said it.

Like, I seriously don't know why some people think the writers are up to trying to re-write or distill a brand new future continuation story/event when everything out of their own mouths have stated quite clearly they're doing the opposite of this. This is the Compilation; the rebirth of the Compilation. It serves as the canvas and paint for remaking FFVII. And they're interested in using it to revisit, recontextualize and ultimately exceed the player's expectations of how we experience FFVII.... But do realize what that ultimately means.

It's still FFVII. That encompasses all of the themes, meanings and concepts attached to it. So I'm not sure how that somehow translates into an entirely new beast that leads to an entirely new canon and made up story that draws a whole new storyline that upends the established FFVII-qualia from within the story. That has never been promised implicitly or explicitly. If they were going to make a new story, frankly, they'd have made a brand new story. Because that's why other FF entries exist. That's even why other franchises like Kingdom Hearts exists. So, if they're repeatedly saying their goal is to recreate and revisit those key moments of FFVII, just through a new, modern lens incorporating all of the FFVII Series that has been written up to now... Why would that suddenly translate into something altogether different and out of left field? There's "surprising" and "unexpected" and then there's completely foreign and unrecognizable. And there's got to be a good, compelling and thematic reason which fits the overall themes of FFVII's story itself. The ones that they've stated include loss, life, and death.

Otherwise we're just playing wish fulfillment and power fantasy.

Which has never been their writing style or FF's overall style.

 

[Tetsujin]

I'm very interested in revisiting these conversations a few years from now when the ending to part 2 inevitably introduces yet another controversial and out of left field major difference from the original game

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah I wouldn’t go as far as thinking SE is making AC totally obsolete. Even if Remake’s future doesn’t lead to AC and DoC directly, being aware of those stories allows for a greater appreciation for how those elements can be recontextualized in Remake.

See, from my POV, AC and DoC will both serve to inform the past of the Remake. That's why being familiar with them is important. I don't think it's being quite gotten here that just because I don't think the remake series will lead to these games and movies anymore means they're irrelevant now, far from it actually. The whole compilation is one story, brought together by the remake to bring it to and end.

I’d definitely be down for that, I think in general there’s a fair few segments where Remake could probably get away with injecting Compilation material especially in disc 2

This is pure spit-balling on my end, but I think the way in which compilation ideas will influence the late stage of the story is that Cloud will come to understand that hitting Sephiroth with a big sword is not a great way of dealing with him permanently, as shown by his return in AC and how Remake Sephiroth has returned from his defeat in AC. Genesis getting involved is a guarantee, I just know it, so I imagine he and Weiss did whatever Aerith did and sent their memories back to their past selves (this is what they're off to do in DoC's secret ending). So I imagine the ultimate solution to beating Sephiroth for good is by Zack and Cloud forming the grand coalition of "Fuck This Silver-Haired Prick" and bring together all these oddball characters to use their unique skills like SND (which Weiss can also do) and Genesis' bro relationship with the planet to finally put the bad man down for good. Of course Cloud will still be the one to confront him directly along with his party, and what role Aerith plays would of course drastically change depending on what happens to her.

This is all just my fan fiction ideas though, so don't take it too seriously lol.

I'm very interested in revisiting these conversation a few years from now when the ending to part 2 inevitably introduces yet another controversial and out of left field major difference from the original game

Oh yeah, no doubt about that lol. This thread is full of "this could be really embarrassing in hindsight" lol.

 

[jeangl123]

Saw someone mention that French interview that people thought meant the compilation wasn't canon anymore. What's funny is that an interviewer, before Remake came out, thought the same thing and asked Kitase about it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think there's definitely potential for a recurring surprise in each entry that peaks our curiosity in terms of what the fuck is going on.

Like seeing Jessie somehow alive again at the Gold Saucer or just anything with Zack since he's the damn wild card of the whole thing. But just like Roxas, Ventus and Terranort, I'm pretty positive their "out of left field" appearances will eventually be explained and justified. Pretty sure that's why there's two Stamps as a clue in the first place.

Saw someone mention that French interview that people thought meant the compilation wasn't canon anymore. What's funny is that an interviewer, before Remake came out, thought the same thing and asked Kitase about it.

Thank you for that, that was another example I wanted to cite in my post but I couldn't find it.

"The base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too" LMAO like, I don't know how much more plainer it needs to be stated!

 

[Theozilla]

Hell, I'll think it then

Because they said it.

Like, I seriously don't know why some people think the writers are up to trying to re-write or distill a brand new future continuation story/event when everything out of their own mouths have stated quite clearly they're doing the opposite of this. This is the Compilation; the rebirth of the Compilation. It serves as the canvas and paint for remaking FFVII. And they're interested in using it to revisit, recontextualize and ultimately exceed the player's expectations of how we experience FFVII.... But do realize what that ultimately means.

It's still FFVII. That encompasses all of the themes, meanings and concepts attached to it. So I'm not sure how that somehow translates into an entirely new beast that leads to an entirely new canon and made up story that draws a whole new storyline that upends the established FFVII-qualia from within the story. That has never been promised implicitly or explicitly. If they were going to make a new story, frankly, they'd have made a brand new story. Because that's why other FF entries exist. That's even why other franchises like Kingdom Hearts exists. So, if they're repeatedly saying their goal is to recreate and revisit those key moments of FFVII, just through a new, modern lens incorporating all of the FFVII Series that has been written up to now... Why would that suddenly translate into something altogether different and out of left field? There's "surprising" and "unexpected" and then there's completely foreign and unrecognizable. And there's got to be a good, compelling and thematic reason which fits the overall themes of FFVII's story itself. The ones that they've stated include loss, life, and death.

Otherwise we're just playing wish fulfillment and power fantasy.

Which has never been their writing style or FF's overall style.

Well that's why I said "overly", not that they wouldn't be beholden at all.
Like say if the Remake does keep the Buster Sword with its OG guard for the entirely of the project and doesn't reveal that the Compilation gold guard is actually underneath it (I do personally hope that it does though), that's what I meant more by not being "overly beholden" to the other Compilation entries.

I never read that TheGamer Interview before though (or if I did I forgot about it), thanks for linking to it Mako.

Before the release of Episode Intermission, it was unclear if the likes of Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and the range of other Final Fantasy 7 material was considered canonical in the remake’s universe. Toriyama-san confirmed that this is definitely the case, describing the remake project as a “coming together” of sorts for over 20 years of adventures. “I want to make it so fans who know the original game and the different Final Fantasy 7 universe titles can look forward to seeing how they all relate and join up with each other, while at the same time communicating how deep and amazing the world and characters of Final Fantasy 7 are to newcomers who will not have seen any of them,” Toriyama-san explains. “Remake is based on the original, but is being made after all of those additions to the universe, so we want to take advantage of that and are planning it out as a kind of ‘coming together’ of all the works set in the Final Fantasy 7 universe to date.”

Like you don't get much more explicit than that with someone saying the Remake will still be canon to and basically lead to AC/C and DC (and I doubt Toriyama would say they are still canon if he only meant it in the way that an entirely new timeline will be created because Aerith and Genesis and Sephiroth are doing an X-Men Days of Future Past a la Wolverine and Kitty Pryde).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Like say if the Remake does keep the Buster Sword with its OG guard for the entirely of the project and doesn't reveal that the Compilation gold guard is actually underneath it (I do personally hope that it does though), that's what I meant more by not being "overly beholden" to the other Compilation entries.

Yeah, there's your extent of "unbeholden-ness" with the FFVII Remake. It'll add another fucking redesign and inconsistency with how the Buster Sword looks between works.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah, there's your extent of "unbeholden-ness" with the FFVII Remake. It'll add another fucking redesign and inconsistency with how the Buster Sword looks between works.

Gonna need a second twitter thread for that lol

Also I'm just saying, nothing about the relationship between Remake and AC I've purposed makes AC non-canon. Quite the opposite, it's absolutely necessary. And this

Remake will still be canon to and basically lead to AC/C and DC.

is definitely putting words in that interview's mouth.

 

[Theozilla]

Also I'm just saying, nothing about the relationship between Remake and AC I've purposed makes AC non-canon lol. Quite the opposite, it's absolutely necessary. And this


Is definitely putting words in that interviews mouth.

That's why I prefaced the second part with a "basically", and not a "literally".

And why I later elaborated that I doubt Toriyama would say the Remake is canon to AC/C and DC, if he was only meaning it in the way you're proposing with the Days of Future Past schtick stuff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And this


Is definitely putting words in that interviews mouth.

I mean, the statement:

"I want to make it so fans who know the original game and the different Final Fantasy 7 universe titles can look forward to seeing how they all relate and join up with each other, while at the same time communicating how deep and amazing the world and characters of Final Fantasy 7 are to newcomers who will not have seen any of them"

Sends a strong indication that they want the Remake to more accurately and effectively join together the various entries of the Compilation so FFVII's connection to them feels more organic and foundational. Which is how FFVII-R will better lead to Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.

Like, the fact FFVII-R introduces how Aerith has a relationship with orphans, heals them with medicinal herbs, introduces Kyrie & Leslie, explores Cloud's inferiority and worries about being unable to save anyone, and a plethora of other AC themes, is an example of Toriyama's goal being made a reality.

The same can be said with Dirge of Cerberus. Nero and Weiss are the specialized attack dogs of Shinra. We are seeing the groundwork being laid for Hojo's fascination with digital consciousness uploading into the worldwide network, and his fixation with Weiss as a perfect host candidate. "So this is what's possible when you transcend the flesh? Good to know!...See you in Deepground!" That's your not-so-subtle lead in to Dirge of Cerberus right there.

So yeah, they're definitely working with that in mind. That's how it's all "the base of the canon."

 

[Odysseus]

Hey guys, I think we've achieved fruitless circular arguing here.

The core of my belief of why the direction of the Remake will go how I think it will is all in the ending of part one. That makes a clear show of the old future being discarded in a way that requires no interpretive logic the way you guys twist these interviews to meet yours. Until something in a future game really shows to the contrary, I'm going with Occam's razor here.

 

[Theozilla]

Hey guys, I think we've achieved fruitless circular arguing here.

The core of my belief of why the direction of the Remake will go how I think it will is all in the ending of part one. That makes a clear show of the old future being discarded in a way that requires no interpretive logic the way you guys twist these interviews to meet yours. Until something in a future game really shows to the contrary, I'm going with Occam's razor here.

I think that's a little unfair to say we are "twisting" the devs statements Ody, we're literally just bringing them up because they are the devs in charge of the Remake project.

And both sides are arguing that they are using Occam's razor here, one is just approaching it from a more Doylisitc context and another is relying on a more Watsonian perspective.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's never fruitless.

The joy comes from the struggle. The grind. The never ending hustle of the rise and shine.

And there's really no interpretative logic going on here from my end, I'm just taking what they writers say at face value. Alongside what they've shown and pointed out themselves as significant themes and moments. Their words are as clear as crystal. There's no ambiguity or inconsistency, and they've (surprisingly) stayed on message for like, 2 years. Very rare for them to carry that level of discipline and consistency.

So we'll see! But I feel really confident. From Intermission to Trace of Two Pasts, I think I'm on a pretty good batting average here. So here's to next season!

 

[Theozilla]

Anyways with the Summer Game Fest starting here's to hoping that the Remake will mentioned in some respect beyond Ever Crisis.

 

[Odysseus]

Even just a trailer would put some of our squabbling to rest lol. Like, I don't even think next game will be called "Remake", since I believe that title describes what happened in the singularity.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Anyways with the Summer Game Fest starting here's to hoping that the Remake will mentioned in some respect beyond Ever Crisis.

It won't.

Don't even hurt yourself hoping like that.

The soonest we might see/hear anything, will be December. And that's being optimistic, they could just give us a simple statement/logo lol

Maybe (and it's a huge maybe) Part 2 is bigger than we expect but that's like hoping for a winning lotto ticket. I still feel it's more likely it'll be 4 parts but they've given pleasant surprises before so...

I feel like KH got the lucky draw getting a teaser trailer. But I also feel like they want to tread very carefully with FFVII-R because they know the expectations and angst over the length of the project is a big concern and they don't want to blow it.

 

[Odysseus]

I wonder if Disney has something to do with the super early KH4 reveal. There's no way it's further along than Remake 2, even if KH3 came out before Remake 1.

 

[Theozilla]

I wonder if Disney has something to do with the super early KH4 reveal. There's no way it's further along than Remake 2, even if KH3 came out before Remake 1.

I mean maybe it is, this time Kingdom Hearts 4 doesn't have to basically lose an entire year of development switching over to an entirely new engine. Perhaps the troubled development SE was going though during the early 2010s and its snowballed aftereffects have finally been passed.

Or perhaps it's that Nomura just likes to reveal stuff early in general, and since Kingdom Hearts is the project he has the most direct control of, it still gets early reveals.