Doctor Who!!~

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think where Moffat has lost me with the Daleks -- and this is probably true of a lot of fans who started with Eccleston -- is that his appearances for them don't feel like they're going to be the definitive showdown that ends what The Doctor started on the last day of the Time War. That excitement and anticipation is gone.

With RTD's use of them, there was always that underlying motif of "the last of their kind," whether that be with The Doctor or the Daleks, and the notion that "Maybe this time it will really be over."

Now, obviously, if you want to make an ongoing thing out of the Daleks and "Doctor Who" itself, you have to leave that behind at some point, which is fair enough. I'm sure RTD "ruined" some things about the show for people who were in love with the classics, and probably more than one change before RTD did the same thing.

I'm normally opppsed to the very idea of fiction that doesn't end, but it's hard to argue that with "Doctor Who," which ultimately reached its best material more than forty years after it began. Depending on who you'd ask, there's probably been many runs where "it should have ended," but it's not true to somebody.

For instance, Aaron inexplicably believes the show became the best it's ever been during Moffat's time in the chair while I think it's a mediocre run with a few good ideas bogged down by self-indulgence and trying too hard to break with the past. But I know people have said the same things about RTD's tenure.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I wouldn't say it's the best it's ever been but I wouldn't say it's any weaker than average either. "Best Who run ever" is a pretty high standard. Some of Tom Baker's episodes would definitely be strong contenders for that crown. Then again on the whole I generally find the quality to vary widely from episode to episode.

Just from looking over the episode lists again, I'd have to say the strongest seasons for me were probably series three through six. But that's oversimplifying by a lot because every series since the show has been revived has had some undisputed classics.

Spoiler: in case anyone is curious, off the top of my head I would probably rate the following NuWho episodes as 9/10 or 10/10 stories

Dalek
Father's Day
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways
The Girl in the Fireplace
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Blink
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
Midnight
Turn Left
The Waters of Mars
Amy's Choice
Vincent and the Doctor
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
The Doctor's Wife
The Girl Who Waited
The Wedding of River Song
Hide
The Day of the Doctor

As you can see I don't tend to have many more "classics" per series from any particular series.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My apologies, Aaron. I would swear I remember a time you said the show "is as good as it's ever been," but that isn't necessarily the same thing as "better than it's ever been."

 

[Ⓐaron]

Well I might have said something roughly along those lines but if so I probably wasn't being very precise. If I said that I probably just meant it's no worse than usual.

I actually do think there was a slight drop in quality for series seven, but the last six episodes or so made up for it.

 

[Carlie]

Adding to what Tres said to me the other problem is that the two Dalek episodes in Moffat's era were just completely awful IMO. I was so bored and annoyed with "Victory of the Daleks" that I decided to do my homework because at that point it was going to provide for me a more satisfying experience.

 

[Roger]

I personally like Victory of the Daleks was Asylum was a bit a enjoyable dud for me. I however disagree with Moffat's assessment. Yes, the Doctor defeated the Daleks a lot, but to their credit, it had to be done. Moffats Daleks are different. They zipped into 21th century Earth, abducted Amy, Rory and the Doctor and zipped back out again of their own volition. And that was the end of it. Daleks can just be around and not be a particularly immeadiate threat to anybody. I don't see how that restores their reputation by any means.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, after another viewing of "The Day of the Doctor" (which I liked even more than the second time), I've noticed even more things that rather definitively establish this episode's events as a change to previous history.

First, something pointing to Bad Wolf being the real Bad Wolf:

----
Bad Wolf: "Why'd you park so far away? Didn't you want her to see it?"
The War Doctor: "Want who to see?"
Bad Wolf: "The TARDIS."
----

Rather curious that The Moment would ask this if it had no actual relation to Bad Wolf. The real entity is, of course, a little bit of Rose and a little bit of the time vortex from the TARDIS, so you can see why it would ask.

More importantly, though, on top of Ten and Eleven's multiple references to "this time" being different with three of them there, if, in fact, they could never remember how the last moments of the Time War had played out, you would think they would have commented on realizing that they couldn't remember because of their own future incarnations being present. Instead, they speak of changing their own history -- a history in which "I've seen that" (Gallifrey burning).

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I personally like Victory of the Daleks was Asylum was a bit a enjoyable dud for me. I however disagree with Moffat's assessment. Yes, the Doctor defeated the Daleks a lot, but to their credit, it had to be done. Moffats Daleks are different. They zipped into 21th century Earth, abducted Amy, Rory and the Doctor and zipped back out again of their own volition. And that was the end of it. Daleks can just be around and not be a particularly immeadiate threat to anybody. I don't see how that restores their reputation by any means.

See, to me this is actually MORE frightening. The Daleks steal them away, because they have a threat to THEMSELVES. In Asylum of the Daleks THEY are not the threat per se, although they're still an element of a threat.

They have a problem with other Daleks, so they bring in the Doctor because he's the best at destroying Daleks. Amy & Rory getting abducted shows you how quickly they're able to get to someone if they deem it important enough - and that's a pretty damn terrifying thing.

The reason that it's even more terrifying is that it set precedent for the Daleks being able to set up an invasion that you don't see coming with the onset of a bunch of flying saucers. They're exterminating populations without anyone even being able to tell that they're doing it with their conversions.


I see what Tres was getting at with the "anticipation of reigniting the old conflict" when they met before being different now. I still get the sense that they have a vendetta and a loathing of the Doctor that's far, FAR greater and more personal than any of the other enemies that he faces whenever they're on screen.


On another note:

Matt Smith has said Peter Capaldi will "do something extraordinary" with the role of the Doctor.

Smith said: "It felt very emotional to be doing my final episode. My mother is mortified, honestly she was at the front of campaign for me to stay and wasn’t happy when I said I was going to leave. But, when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go. Of course, it’s very sad for me in many ways because everything is the last time. It’s the last read-through, the last time I put on the bow tie and the last scene in the TARDIS, but the show is about change and I had lunch with Peter Capaldi shortly after the announcement and I think he’s just going to be incredible. He has the most brilliant ideas. As a fan, I’m genuinely excited to see what he’s going to do because I think he’s going to do something extraordinary."

Sad/Excited to the max.

ALL THE EMOTIONS!!~


X

 

[Super Mario]

I am pretty sure Daleks can also tango with weeping angels because no matter how far those silly morons send them to the past, they cab bypass their nice killer mode by simply doing temporal shift or incase of the new parliament, request for extraction. They are terrifying in terms of fridge horror at post asylum because of their new organization, society and ability to make a bigger comeback and from the looks of asylum-current daleks, can wipe out the weeping angels later if they feel they are too much of a threat. Unfortunately, cybermen may need more improvements now other than a new arc reactor.

 

[Claymore]

Looks like we're going to get a lot of closure from elements across 11's tenure:

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-on-wrapping-up-mysteries-56819.htm

 

[Novus]

^ They'll be retcons but I do not suppose it matters in the end.

Also there are still holes in the Melody arc. Like who raised her when she was a black toddler? How did a black Toddler go from the 1960s to the 1990s?
You can (I suppose) headcannon that she stole the Silence tardis and piloted to where it was in the lodger, or that she lived thirty years on earth and de-aged herself as explained in 'Let's kill Hitler'. Both options remove the idea of Rory and Amy 'raising her', because she was just being dishonest in her mental immaturity.
The River exposition would be something like: 'Oh a Dalek flew me there, let me tell you, that plunger's not just for show.' I don't really watch the show anymore than I do Twin Peaks for answers to mysteries.

 

[Ryushikaze]

^ They'll be retcons but I do not suppose it matters in the end.

Also there are still holes in the Melody arc. Like who raised her when she was a black toddler? How did a black Toddler go from the 1960s to the 1990s?

Can I suggest a hilarious hypothesis?

The Ponds did.
They raised Mel as a young girl- maybe not a black one- in New York, and when the time was right, she went to go meet her parents as kids.

You can (I suppose) headcannon that she stole the Silence tardis and piloted to where it was in the lodger, or that she lived thirty years on earth and de-aged herself as explained in 'Let's kill Hitler'. Both options remove the idea of Rory and Amy 'raising her', because she was just being dishonest in her mental immaturity.

Not if they found her as an actual young girl in the 60s. This causes a bit of a time loop where an older Mel helps 'raise' her parents like they raised her in New York.

The River exposition would be something like: 'Oh a Dalek flew me there, let me tell you, that plunger's not just for show.' I don't really watch the show anymore than I do Twin Peaks for answers to mysteries.

Peyote.[/Twinspeaksexplanation]

 

[Ryushikaze]

What is everyone's thoughts on 'The two doctors'?

It's quite accessible unlike some of the older serials and is in the 45-minute format (although has a few parts).
The reason I'm bringing it up is because we get a very different Doctor to the one Moffat is describing.

Do you mean #6 or #2 in The Two Doctors?

 

[Novus]

Can I suggest a hilarious hypothesis?

The Ponds did.
They raised Mel as a young girl- maybe not a black one- in New York, and when the time was right, she went to go meet her parents as kids.
Peyote.[/Twinspeaksexplanation]

Isn't the line once Hitler shoots her (I can't believe I'm typing this) Here is the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1pyFNcqUo

'Last time I did this I was a toddler in the middle of new york', a direct reference to the end of Day of the Moon, which showed the girl from the Orphanage in a New York alleyway. This means it was the black incarnation of River Song known as Mels. I also think the other dialogue is referring directly to the previous montage of them going to school with her ect and not an ambiguous off-screen event.

I think it needs addressing, even if we get a retcon I wouldn't mind. I'm happy they're clearing up the Series 5 finale 'Pandorica opens'.

 

[Novus]

Do you mean #6 or #2 in The Two Doctors?

Six, things like Shockeye's death. And what leads up to it, running away ect.

 

[Tennyo]

@Dalek discussion:

I didn't mind "Victory of the Daleks," but I didn't particularly like it, either. Its just sort of there. Not really an episode I'd purposely rewatch, but I didn't hate it, either.

"Asylum of the Daleks," had its fun moments, but I was incredibly bothered by Amy and Rory's pointless non-baby drama. That was just stupid. The pair of them were completely useless in this episode. Seriously, Moffat just introduces a plot point like that and solves it five minutes later? Just no. I would have rather Amy and Rory not even been in that episode.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Isn't the line once Hitler shoots her (I can't believe I'm typing this) Here is the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1pyFNcqUo

'Last time I did this I was a toddler in the middle of new york', a direct reference to the end of Day of the Moon, which showed the girl from the Orphanage in a New York alleyway. This means it was the black incarnation of River Song known as Mels. I also think the other dialogue is referring directly to the previous montage of them going to school with her ect and not an ambiguous off-screen event.

I think it needs addressing, even if we get a retcon I wouldn't mind. I'm happy they're clearing up the Series 5 finale 'Pandorica opens'.

No, it says the last time she did it she WOUND UP a toddler in the middle of New York, which, yes, probably does mean her regenerating at the end of DotM, but DOES NOT preclude the aged Ponds then raising her IN NEW YORK.

Hence her line "You got to raise me after all."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

After rewatching "Journey's End," I suppose I can see Moffat's purpose in wanting to redesign the Daleks, as, at that point, they had been soundly defeated (in a presumably repeatable fashion) and made to look rather silly while it happened. Though RTD likely didn't have that concern, for obvious reasons.

What doesn't make sense about "Victory of the Daleks" to me is why the Progenator didn't recognize the Daleks as true Daleks (for being created from Davros's DNA) when it had long been previously established that their physiology was close enough anyway for him to be infected by a virus meant for them ("Resurrection of the Daleks"), what with Davros and all of them originally being Kaleds.

And honestly? Three episodes into his tenure way way too early for Moffat to bring them back. If he wanted to emphasize the terror that goes before them and their sacred status as The Doctor's greatest enemies, then leaving the Daleks out of the picture for at least most of Series 5 would have been a better choice than them immediately popping back up after the entire race was said to have been wiped out.

I guess he was hoping for their "victory" to prevent the sudden reappearance from undermining his objective for them, but it still felt awkward.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

One more week.

Lots of clips in the BBC America trailer here.

X

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler

dat hotel room tho...

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

dat hotel room tho...

Spoiler: So that means that we've got at LEAST...

The 12 regenerations limit, what the hell happened at Trenzalore/how he survived, how/why the destruction of the TARDIS happened from The Pandorica Opens, what the "Silence Will Fall" means and why the Doctor doesn't know what it means, the Doctor's Fear from The God Complex, and probably other stuff that's slipping my mind right now

ALL HAPPENING IN A WEEK!!!!


also:

TT___TT

There's gonna be lots of crying this Christmas...



X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like I should feel bad that I won't miss Matt Smith. I don't, though.

 

[Tennyo]

I will miss Matt. Something about him finally clicked for me when Clara became the full time companion. That's when, for me at least, he finally became The Doctor. The two of them are fab together and I wish we could get more episodes. T_T

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I will miss Matt. Something about him finally clicked for me when Clara became the full time companion. That's when, for me at least, he finally became The Doctor. The two of them are fab together and I wish we could get more episodes. T_T

Their dynamic and not getting a full season of them is what makes me the most sad (even though 11 is my favorite Doctor NuWho by a good margin). All I want is one full season with Eleven and Clara tromping about the universe together being adorable.


X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I will certainly agree that those two fit together really well, and it is rather a shame that there wasn't more of them together.