Doctor Who!!~

Ⓐaron · Dec 26, 2013

@The Silence: They were shown as being generally on his side - keeping the Stalemate and maintaining peace (not saving Gallifrey). They were with him the whole time, and it was just during the period of 300 years that Kovarian's sect broke off and attempted to prevent the whole thing, but only ended up ensuring that the events happened. All the Silence he met during the previous episodes were all from this splinter group.

Yeah, I got most of that from the episode; I just thought it was rushed over and could have been explained better. It's not really good for dramatic impact when you have fairly substantial portions of backstory this major left as subtext.

@The Angels: It showed him stopping one of them with a mirror and leaving a note for them, and being as they were the first ones who made it down, it's likely that they'd have been removed/dealt with first, since they don't really come in fleets of ships insofar as we know.

That, on the other hand, I completely missed.

X-SOLDIER · Dec 26, 2013

Some cute deleted Clara & Eleven chemistry.

They were the good guys in Time of the Angels/Flesh & Stone, so I dont think that it's TOO much of a shift.

X

Tennyo · Dec 26, 2013

So I've watched it, but it's probably going to be a while before I can sit down and write out all of my thoughts on it. But honestly I do have to say that this episode left me with no emotions. At the end I was just kind of all like, "Okay..."

I'm suddenly neither sad that Matt is gone nor do I any longer feel excited for Capaldi. It was all just rather meh. But maybe I was in the wrong sort of mood to be watching Doctor Who today. As I said, I'll write more about it at a later date maybe.

X-SOLDIER · Dec 26, 2013

Some BTS stuff with fun facts about some of the cast who had appeared in previous Doctor Who episodes:

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Selphie Tilmitt · Dec 26, 2013

I'd have enjoyed the episode more if my mum and aunt hadn't been having a very merry - and loud, complete with high pitch laughing, etc Christmas time chat while it was on :monster:

The Doctor · Dec 27, 2013

the moffat era of Doctor Who has been a bit marmite for me. i loved Matt in the eleventh hour and the entirety of that series if i'm honest, moffat was going for a modern fairytale feel to his Who and it almost worked. Then came confusion. I consider myself a reasonably clever individual with all natural faculties and abilities needed to ensure i can fend for myself on this rock hurtling around the sun. but dear god, everything from the Doctor dying by a lake in America to the finale of series 7 was damn near indecipherable.

for me, moffats era in charge of Doctor Who was redeemed entirely by the 50th anniversary special and the time of the doctor seemed, to me at least, as though Moffat was drawing a line under this 'modern fairytale' nonsense once and for all. the time of the doctor made no sense, but it didn't have to. all it had to do was end the eleventh doctors story in as magical and as fantastical a way as it began and, boy-howdy, it did just that.

Capaldi is, imo, the breath of fresh air that Matt was when he started. Back then RTD, DT and DW in general had stagnated. It had settled into it's rhythm, it had found a formula that worked and it was literally flouncing that formula to death. (the last 5 Tennant stories are the anti-thesis of flogging a dead horse, Tennant should have regenerated at the end of JE for bigger drama and lulz etc.)

What we need from Who now are great individual stories that form an arc, not the wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey uber "cleverness" we've had for the last 2 series. added to that is Capaldi, an actor who wants to play the Doctor and, if we can open our hearts to an older and more conventionally aged Doctor, we might find in him the greatest Doctor yet.

that being said, Matt's goodbye made me shed a tear so i can't possibly tear into an episode that succeeded in making a 28 year old grown man cry on christmas fucking day.

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 27, 2013

The episode was a bit like masturbation when you really wanted a warm, soft woman under you. Got the job done, but didn't safisfy.

Claymore · Dec 27, 2013

The Doctor said:
SNIP

Really well said.

Though I loved Matt, I am seriously looking forward to Capaldi.

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 27, 2013

Thought I should get more detailed about the things I liked and didn't like:

Things I liked
-It was cool bringing a bunch of The Doctor's enemies together and having them fight each other
-Handles was awesome
-A wooden Cyberman is odd, but kind of cool
-It was good to see immediate acknowledgement of the events of "The Day of the Doctor," though I was momentarily puzzled and annoyed that he wasn't already sure the plan to save Gallifrey was successful -- then I remembered that he probably forgot the "Gallifrey Falls No More" explanation since The Curator is a future incarnation of himself
-Tasha Lem is awesome
-The Daleks were the most effective here they've ever been under Moffat, though I'm puzzled why he bothered removing their memory of The Doctor in the first place if he was just going to give it back to them here
-Use of the Silents was cool (I really liked that shot of The Doctor leading some into battle)
-Clara and Eleven's first farewell was perfect
-The bit at the end with Amy was a nice touch, though the timing was misplaced (see below)

Things I didn't like
-While it's good to get explanations for stuff, the answers hardly justified the drawn-out mysteries, nor did they live up to the "hype" of said mysteries
-It really doesn't make sense that the Time Lords didn't just come on through the crack after sending the regeneration energy. What made them back off? Are they still trying to come through? Still waiting for The Doctor to say his name?
-Eleven's regeneration into Twelve was just too drawn out. I'm sure the same has been said of Ten, but it was really anti-climactic and disappointing when Clara discovered Eleven in the TARDIS rather than Twelve, particularly after that beautiful farewell they'd already had before he stepped out to let the Daleks kill him. The sequence with him blowing up the Daleks should have ended with his hallucination of Amy, and then Clara would find the new Doctor in the ship
-The whole thing felt fucking weird

X-SOLDIER · Dec 28, 2013

Martha Jones said:
Things I liked
-The Daleks were the most effective here they've ever been under Moffat, though I'm puzzled why he bothered removing their memory of The Doctor in the first place if he was just going to give it back to them here.

this makes is so that The Doctor is now exclusively infamous with the Daleks. Basically all his other enemies don't really remember him as being the great big infamous terror he was that told them all off in The Eleventh Hour, and likely won't remember it from this other than he might've brought the Time Lords back but didn't and there was a big standoff where the Daleks were the last ones standing, and the Time Lords didn't come back. It basically makes then into each others' nemesis again, and tones down his immediate impact on all the other races.

Martha Jones said:
Things I didn't like
-While it's good to get explanations for stuff, the answers hardly justified the drawn-out mysteries, nor did they live up to the "hype" of said mysteries
-It really doesn't make sense that the Time Lords didn't just come on through the crack after sending the regeneration energy. What made them back off? Are they still trying to come through? Still waiting for The Doctor to say his name?
-Eleven's regeneration into Twelve was just too drawn out. I'm sure the same has been said of Ten, but it was really anti-climactic and disappointing when Clara discovered Eleven in the TARDIS rather than Twelve, particularly after that beautiful farewell they'd already had before he stepped out to let the Daleks kill him. The sequence with him blowing up the Daleks should have ended with his hallucination of Amy, and then Clara would find the new Doctor in the ship

- I think that (aside from the "why didn't the Time Lords just show up anyway / what happened to his grave at Trenzalore") the answers were good, even though I REALLY would've liked to see them in more detail. I think that part of the difficulty might've been that I don't think that the BBC changes the budget for Doctor Who, despite the fact that they had to do all these specials this year, which is why S7 felt a bit disjointed, but I totally see where you're coming from and agree with you in some ways. I think that if they went one more season, we'd have seen a LOT more specifics during his sendoff.

- I think that it was a bit drawn out, but I still love it because of what he says and a few thematic little things in how it was handled:

• I loved that the fact that his Regeneration Cycle getting continued let him go out with a hell of a bang, and that it felt like his regeneration ITSELF was a victory - which is important.
• VERY much unlike Ten's, Eleven's whole regeneration is all about how it's a part of Time Lord life rather than a tragedy, and drawing those parallels to human life. In real life, we're not the same people that we were 15 years ago even biologically speaking, but for the Time Lords, it's more of a sudden stair step and less of a slope. You see him going through all the little nostalgic things from the beginning of his life, like fish fingers & custard, because he knows that he's experiencing them all one last time, because they'll never be the same to him since all those things are about to change. That's capped off by seeing Amy saying goodbye to him and him dropping his bow tie to the floor, closing off that chapter of his life for good.
• The conversation with Clara shows that even more, and this is where even though it feels like it's a bit drawn out, I think that what he says is really important because it's conveying that message in specifics of what it means to Eleven. His regeneration is less about that one moment (like Ten's "I don't want to go.") and more about what his whole regeneration process is as a part of the lifecycle of being a Time Lord which is why I really loved it. It's not just addressing it as this one regeneration. This is his start of a whole new set of regenerations, so we get to see what it's like as part of a bigger picture for his life. It's all being told to Clara who's seen all the little bits and pieces of his life, and understands it, but even so she still sees her Eleven as "The Doctor" - (which probably hits closer for those of us where he IS "our Doctor") and connects to what Clara's Gran says earlier about wanting to keep things the same forever. Eleven's terrible with goodbyes, which is why I was really glad to see him just get to pour out his thoughts, and then suddenly vanish.
• Lastly, the fact that his regeneration into 12 happens so suddenly, and that Capaldi's Doctor seems to be a bit mentally scrambled ("Do you know how to fly this thing?") even after 11 is determined to remember every last line of his regeneration makes it all the more jarring and surprising, but also a bit exciting. I'm ridiculously stoked for 12, and I'm excited to see how they address his appearance and how Clara's knowledge about The Doctor will be there to assist making 12 just as much HER Doctor again as 11 was.

(For everyone who needed to have a proper goodbye moment, there's Eleven & Handles).

X

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 28, 2013

I hadn't thought about the regeneration bit like that, but good observations. I suppose because I hadn't ever considered the whole twelve regenerations limit thing to be that serious of a plot point -- and also hadn't ever made the connection that David Tennant technically played the eleventh and twelfth incarnations out of only thirteen -- I didn't see the significance.

For me, it was just going to be another regeneration, but you're right -- for The Doctor, it was living beyond what should have quite literally been the grave for him.

Ⓐaron · Dec 28, 2013

Moffat talks series 8

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 29, 2013

No mention of passing it on to a new showrunner. I am disappoint.

Well, at least with all the River shit out of the way and Matt Smith gone, there is hope for me to not want to shoot myself every episode. :awesome:

Super Mario · Dec 29, 2013

Lets see how Capaldi goes. I hope he gets an even prettier wife :troll:

Carlie · Dec 29, 2013

Martha Jones said:
No mention of passing it on to a new showrunner. I am disappoint.

Even though I really wish Moffat would step down and go back to writing episodes once a season if he's staying maybe the change of direction will provide a better run for him as showrunner.

Martha Jones said:
Well, at least with all the River shit out of the way and Matt Smith gone, there is hope for me to not want to shoot myself every episode.

Is River gone for good though? I would be really interested to see her interact with Capaldi's Doctor because it just never worked out with Matt IMO.

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 29, 2013

You're right. Moffat does have good ideas, so maybe a fresh start will give him the chance to execute them properly.

If I could speak to him, I'd certainly ask that he keep the storytelling tighter and more -- or at least as much -- about the characters than the plot, which is a balance he has had a hard time striking. I'd also ask that he just stop with The Weirdness, and perhaps ask (while screaming) that I never have to look at a fez again.

X-SOLDIER · Dec 29, 2013

Martha Jones said:
… and perhaps ask (while screaming) that I never have to look at a fez again.

You should actually thank him. He kept finding ways to destroy all of Matt Smith's hats and things that he kept obsessing about and trying to add to his costume all the time, because he never really liked them.

Also, I am curious what you mean about the plot vs. character development, as well as what you consider "The Weirdness" to be.

X :neo:

The Twilight Mexican · Dec 29, 2013

Oh, yeah, I know that the fez became Matt Smith's fetish after it was included the first time and Moffat later tried to keep it out of there in opposition to Matt's wishes while occasionally placating him. I wasn't trying to blame him for that one, but it did sound like I was, didn't it?

As for the plot vs. character stuff, like I mentioned before, too much time was spent on relatively simple plot points that only became a clusterfuck of mystery because of how the details were unveiled. It really wasn't necessary to make an overarching plot across three seasons that was deliberately not straightforward about something that ultimately just boiled down to various parties trying to stop The Doctor from saying his name when the resolution of that plot didn't even clarify a) whether saying his name was still necessary and b) why he didn't just go ahead and do it when the 300-year Mexican standoff ended.

Of course, River was a focal point for so much of all that, and it's thoroughly on the record at this point how much of a mistake I think the obsession with her was. :monster:

As for The Weirdness, well, I think some of that is just Matt Smith being Matt Smith, but I can't be alone in thinking that there's been a different vibe to the show for a while now. It even looks different. Everything from lighting and general atmosphere to the way shots are directed changed. It just has this weirdness to it for me that makes it feel like it's not really in our world, while the first four seasons always felt so grounded even when taking place on other planets.

This latest Christmas special is a good example, really. I don't know. It felt like they were in fucking Narnia or something. I guess that's what I mean: Moffat's "Doctor Who" feels like Narnia to me.

X-SOLDIER · Dec 29, 2013

Well ANY time traveling story told in a certain order is always going to be clear as soon as the details are available. I didn't really see it as being that intentionally obtuse, since there're been lots of small hints throughout that are more obvious after the fact. (Also: he didn't say his name after, because the crack snapped shut after Clara said her bit and they wouldn't have heard him without that connection into another universe. WHY that happened is still who knows).

The vibe of the show is absolutely different which is always true of new Doctors & new show runners, (especially with Classic Who) & it certainly comes down to preference, but I like the visual aesthetic & tones of the show now more than its previous NuWho incarnation, but I suppose this'll always be an "agree to disagree" thing.

This is the song that plays during Matt Smith's regeneration that's been cleaned up quite nicely. What's especially notable for me is that Amy tells him, "goodnight" because as you can hear here, the Melody from *Rings of Akhaten* is briefly playing in the background, and the (unsung) lyrics are especially apropros to the whole moment:

"Rest now, my warrior. Rest now, hardship is over. Live. Wake up. Wake up. And let the cloak of life cling to your bones."

So, yeah.

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