Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[MasterMoogle]

I think those Clerith bought some bots for voting after they found out they lost. Just a moment, the CA increased in an insane rate.....

Agreed. Cloti was at about 55%, and within an hour or two, Clerith was up to 60%.

 

[shersita007]

I think those Clerith bought some bots for voting after they found out they lost. Just a moment, the CA increased in an insane rate.....

Whatever helps them to sleep

Is kinda sad that the only way they can accomplish their desire, is cheating themselves.

 

[verse1994]

Agreed. Cloti was at about 55%, and within an hour or two, Clerith was up to 60%.

Whatever helps them to sleep

Is kinda sad that the only way they can accomplish their desire, is cheating themselves.

Yeah. I am relieved now. I was unhappy because I just can imagine they will use this cheating poll to advertise and shove it on other clotis to defend their ship. Also I tried to avoid looking the comments, there are more 'I think' than analysis, I was very unhappy how people could twisted the plot just for making their ship reasonable and they left me the impression that they simply hate Tifa and want her hurt.

Sorry for my intense reply, wish everyone has a good day and stop looking at the comments.

 

[gilbaxnomfux]

Whatever helps them to sleep

Is kinda sad that the only way they can accomplish their desire, is cheating themselves.

True, a Poll is just a Poll...doesn't mean it has the final say on whom Cloud ends up with, only Nomura, Nojima and Kitase have the final say when they are ready to deliver.

 

[iamhorde]

Welcome @JT77fp !!!

@Graymouse I think to me even more so than Tifa at the bedside, it was the placement of everyone else noticeably NOT at the bedside, and that we got a pan of the room that showed us very clearly that it was only Tifa there. There are so many little things like that in the last few chapters and I really do think it is significant.

All 3 resolutions happen, one where Cloud acts jealous hearing about another guy hitting on Tifa, one where Cloud hugs Tifa, and one where Aerith tells him he can't fall in love with her, and even if he has it isn't real.

We then spend the remainder of the game getting only Cloti ship moments, and Cloud and Tifa standing together and taking leading roles in party leadership and helping out each other.

Even at Destiny's crossroads when everyone should just be focused on Aerith, we have this perfect moment where we could get some kind of heartfelt Clerith scene, but instead they have Cloud direct his attention over his shoulder to Tifa multiple times.

Then when fighting the whispers, we have whisper rubrum attack Tifa. Only Tifa. Why? Given how the love triangle was handled in chapters 10/11 (where if one girl got a moment with Cloud, so did the other), why not have BOTH Aerith and Tifa need to be saved by Cloud from the whisper rubrum? They are standing right next to each other, there is no good reason I can think of for why there is a scene here of Cloud only saving Tifa. Yet there is.

I mean I'm wearing full shipping goggles today (and also had some wine...) but to me these decisions to put C/T constantly together, to have the shipping moments go to them, to have Tifa at Cloud's bedside and saving him on the roof, and have Cloud saving just her, they mean something. If the Dev's wanted to keep it equal for both ships they had opportunity here to do so, they chose not too.

Great points there. There's also a very brief scene, I believe it was Chapter 17, where Cloud was separated from the party after falling and he meets with Red XIII. In the Japanese version when he asks about the group, he says "Tifa tachi wa...?" Which is roughly translated as "where is Tifa and the others?".

It may seem like an insignificant detail but it clearly shows who Cloud was thinking about.

 

[Final_Heaven]

How are we losing???

Because it's a Clerith account with lots of Clerith followers who spread it to their followers, said poll creator wants to make a point and some Cloti accounts like mine are blocked.

Also bots.

This is all in retaliation for Clerith getting 10th place in another poll and Cloti getting 4th place.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Wow, lots of things I didn't pick up on that Miiwoo mentioned. The owner of that tumblr acc made some unteresting analysis as well.
I didn't really pick up on some of this stuff.

I received part of my shipment from Amazon jp today and now reading the FF7 10th anniversary Ultimania.

I understand better now what you guys mean when you speak of the word "reunion" being something important to Cloud and Tifa. The word reunion is mentioned several times when talking about them in here.

The first "reunion" mentioned was put in quotation marks, and happens when Tifa finds Cloud at the train station. I remember one of you guys mentioning this in the LTD thread. So this is not a true reunion in a sense.

It goes on to say that in the Lifestream is where they find their true reunion, their shinjitsu no saikai. It talks about how the true meaning of the word "reunion" for them is fulfilled only after they find his true self.

I feel a bit sad though because Tifa hasn't "reunited" with her Cloud yet. They've been separated for so long.

This Cloti video really sells that reunion part at the end.

 

[Shadowfox]

"Let's all go together."
"Memories of Aerith......"
"Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something
stopped her and now she's stuck......"
"We've got to let go of Aerith's memory."

On Cloud's Highwind speech, there's another difference I noticed reading the JP script for the original game.

The same lines in the JP script:
「みんなで行こう」
「エアリスの想い……」
「星にとどいたはずなのに 邪魔されて身動きできないでいる……」
「エアリスの想い、解き放つんだ！」

The word that was translated as "memories" in the English game was originally 想い, which I usually read as "thoughts, feelings, wish". In this case, I tend to tie 想い closer to Aerith's wish for Holy to protect the planet. So this speech was Cloud saying that Aerith's wish should have reached the planet but it's been blocked by Sephiroth and cannot move, and he was calling on the group to go together to free her wish and thus activate Holy.

Interestingly, 想い was also the same word Tifa used for "feelings" in her "Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel" line in the HA Highwind scene.

 

[Eerie]

Omoi has a deep connotation hasn’t it? I can only read the “i” though lmao but I recall that word associated with AC/C and Tifa’s speech. So double guessing there.

And yes, people often overlook how “reunion” is a cloti motif. It has been waved in with the Promise AND in Tifa’s theme. I think it’s great how this time around, it’s so much easier to realise that Tifa had Cloud promise to come and save her because she was so bummed that he was going away and she wanted to make sure they’d see each other again. In the OG, there was much less nuance possible with the 3D and that has been overlooked by probably nearly everyone. Often people wondered why the fuck she made him promise that, and was badly looked at for this, in LTD at least.

 

[JT77fp]

The word that was translated as "memories" in the English game was originally 想い, which I usually read as "thoughts, feelings, wish". In this case, I tend to tie 想い closer to Aerith's wish for Holy to protect the planet. So this speech was Cloud saying that Aerith's wish should have reached the planet but it's been blocked by Sephiroth and cannot move, and he was calling on the group to go together to free her wish and thus activate Holy.

Hahaha, well done. I was wondering if someone would pick up on that, which is why I was careful not to frame that as shipping wars stuff. People here are as sharp as ever!

The point I was making is that Cloud was full of positivity, which I regard that speech as being an example of. Graymouse was talking about twisted interpretations. To say that his endgame desire was to not accept Aerith's death, to somehow reunite with a dead girlfriend, while ignoring the woman who was so dedicated to him and whom he has longed for all his life (even after he spends the night with her)....is a twisted interpretation that thrusts Cloud into another life of illusion. It goes completely against the Cloud that no longer wants to be "master of his illusionary world", not to mention everything else that has happened in the game. And I'm talking just OG, not even AC or remake.

And thanks for the welcomes.

 

[Graymouse]

You guys want to know how much Tifa means to Cloud. Take a look at the pictures during the Shinra HQ virtual simulation.
The emotion on Clouds face as he watches Sephroth kills Tifa.

The video starts right where sephorith kills Tifa. Pay attention to the expressions on both of Tifa and Cloud's face. This is priceless.

 

[Shadowfox]

Omoi has a deep connotation hasn’t it? I can only read the “i” though lmao but I recall that word associated with AC/C and Tifa’s speech. So double guessing there.

Yeah. From my (admittedly amateurish) readings, omoi (想い) has a very serious connotation. There's more heartfelt impact to the feelings it talks about.

Hahaha, well done. I was wondering if someone would pick up on that, which is why I was careful not to frame that as shipping wars stuff. People here are as sharp as ever!

The point I was making is that Cloud was full of positivity, which I regard that speech as being an example of. Graymouse was talking about twisted interpretations. To say that his endgame desire was to not accept Aerith's death, to somehow reunite with a dead girlfriend, while ignoring the woman who was so dedicated to him and whom he has longed for all his life (even after he spends the night with her)....is a twisted interpretation that thrusts Cloud into another life of illusion. It goes completely against the Cloud that no longer wants to be "master of his illusionary world", not to mention everything else that has happened in the game. And I'm talking just OG, not even AC or remake.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take away from your point about Cloud being very positive and confident. I was just thinking that I should add to my previous post to say that, but looks like I came back a bit late.

You're absolutely right. Cloud's behaviour after being restored to his true self was upbeat. He had a desire to settle his past and he openly looked forward to the future, whatever it may bring. It felt that way to me when I played the OG.

Needless to say, I was pretty confused for a while after the game came out to see fanworks portraying Cloud as constantly moping and lamenting and generally devolving into an angry, angsty loner. But then I realised that a lot of people who played the game really bought into the fairytale aspect of the C/A relationship and, I dunno, maybe they wrote Cloud that way to cope with the loss of that fantasy. I was disappointed at first that AC had mopey Cloud in too, but also encouraged that the movie's central premise was to have Cloud restored to his upbeat, hopeful self.

 

[iamhorde]

You guys want to know how much Tifa means to Cloud. Take a look at the pictures during the Shinra HQ virtual simulation.
The emotion on Clouds face as he watches Sephroth kills Tifa.

I'm curious to hear what you guys think of this scene. It really bothered me when I first saw this scene and was really worried that it might be a sign that they were gonna change the story and kill Tifa instead. But the more discussions and commentary I read seem to suggest that it's nothing but a red herring and Kitase himself said that they were gonna stick to the same story beats. You can't have a lot of the 2nd half the same with Tifa gone.

After giving more thought, the only reasons I could think of why SE would include such a scene are:

1. It is what it is, just a vision. Sephiroth playing tricks on Cloud and Tifa's death was just a representation of Sephiroth taking away all that Cloud holds dear.
2. It's a red herring to keep fans talking and guessing.
3. God forbid, it is a sign of what is to come.
4. To make Cloud realize how much Tifa means to him and to show us how important she is to him. This was to amplify his desire to protect her at all cost and makes his promise to save her so much more important.

Wearing my shipping goggles, I'd really like to think it's the 4th but I don't think it's that far fetched either, logically speaking. FF7 Remake has been amplifying almost everything from the OG. The relationships are a lot more well established, the stakes seem higher and even Cloud and Tifa's relationship has been established and amplified way sooner compared to the OG. It's like they are taking the best parts of the OG and making it even bigger and better.

Here's hoping that my faith in SE will pay off.

 

[Yumelinh]

Welcome @JT77fp ( or more like "Welcome Back!" )

Great points! Cloud upbeat self after the Lifestream is probably one of my fav things from OG and that's why I tend to get so upset that people tend to remember him only for his stoic/fake persona ( this and how people tend to interpret Tifa importance to Cloud are probably my two biggest pet peeves from the fandom). Thankfully, Remake seems to be going in the right direction when it comes to Cloud's personality so I hope they keep this good work in the future

 

[JT77fp]

Needless to say, I was pretty confused for a while after the game came out to see fanworks portraying Cloud as constantly moping and lamenting and generally devolving into an angry, angsty loner. But then I realised that a lot of people who played the game really bought into the fairytale aspect of the C/A relationship and, I dunno, maybe they wrote Cloud that way to cope with the loss of that fantasy.

@Shadowfox: That pretty much sums up my 1999 and what happened when I hooked up my 56k modem to the internet and searched for FF7! I'd be lying if I said that other people's opinions never bothered me. Sometimes it did, but in time I chalked it up as a lesson in life. How some people will genuinely see things differently from you, but how others can twist and manipulate plain facts to push a preconceived idea.

I was disappointed at first that AC had mopey Cloud in too, but also encouraged that the movie's central premise was to have Cloud restored to his upbeat, hopeful self.

Honestly, I don't care how much clotiness is in AC/OTWTAS, I still cringe when I watch it. I find it a terrible sequel and I don't mean to offend anyone who likes it. I just can't stand it! Yes, Cloud is mopey. But what about Tifa's character development in CoT/AC? It was non existent and relegated her to a professional worrier (as opposed to warrior!). She worries about Cloud, worries about Denzel, is heartbroken over Aerith's death and the destruction of Midgar and never really does anything of substance. The whole bit about Cloud being scared to tell her he went to visit the church is just petty. I know the creators wanted to portray her insecurities, but at the same time could they have given her character growth by getting over it and being more assertive? Instead of asking "do you love me?", have her tell Cloud that she loves him and trusts him to come talk to her when he's ready. Oh and don't get me started about her telling everyone NOT to help Cloud fight Sephiroth. Seriously?! It's because of AC that I still harbour some doubts about the remake being any good when it is finally completed!

It's a red herring to keep fans talking and guessing.

Yup, that one.

 

[shersita007]

I'm curious to hear what you guys think of this scene. It really bothered me when I first saw this scene and was really worried that it might be a sign that they were gonna change the story and kill Tifa instead. But the more discussions and commentary I read seem to suggest that it's nothing but a red herring and Kitase himself said that they were gonna stick to the same story beats. You can't have a lot of the 2nd half the same with Tifa gone.

After giving more thought, the only reasons I could think of why SE would include such a scene are:

1. It is what it is, just a vision. Sephiroth playing tricks on Cloud and Tifa's death was just a representation of Sephiroth taking away all that Cloud holds dear.
2. It's a red herring to keep fans talking and guessing.
3. God forbid, it is a sign of what is to come.
4. To make Cloud realize how much Tifa means to him and to show us how important she is to him. This was to amplify his desire to protect her at all cost and makes his promise to save her so much more important.

Wearing my shipping goggles, I'd really like to think it's the 4th but I don't think it's that far fetched either, logically speaking. FF7 Remake has been amplifying almost everything from the OG. The relationships are a lot more well established, the stakes seem higher and even Cloud and Tifa's relationship has been established and amplified way sooner compared to the OG. It's like they are taking the best parts of the OG and making it even bigger and better.

Here's hoping that my faith in SE will pay off.

If SE kills Tifa instead of Aerith, plenty of gamers won't buy the next installment anymore or their other games hehehe.

I have read people even saying, they can kill Cloud even, but if they kill Tifa, is over for them. If they kill Tifa, they will also destroy 20 years of compilations and this will be a new story (devs have mentioned Remake is not a new story). But Tifa is a very beloved game character, and after Remake reléase her popularity has increase double than before, even in Japan. So, killing her will be a very bad move for SE wallet lol.

And the game itself, will be a mess after it too.

 

[Tipink46]

Something people need to think about is what would be Tifa's role outside of her relationship to Cloud? The answer is none, beyond being a background character similar to Yuffie that is. I don't say this to denigrate her, but it's just a fact. Her story revolves around Cloud. Ergo, the devs are left with two or three options. Either preserve/expand upon her relationship with Cloud, reduce her to irrelevancy, or kill her character off. Of these options, which do you guys think is likely?

Aerith's story doesn't rely on Cloud, however. Her story revolves around the external plot, Sephiroth and meteor. You can take Cloud out of the equation, and she would still have something to do. Given this, does it make any sense to expand upon her relationship with Cloud? Ask yourself WHAT is the point of her relationship with Cloud? When you can come with a logical answer, you'll have figured out what the devs plan on doing with her character, IF they plan on doing anything different from the OG with her character.

You wrong, i think you forget, sephiroth kill tifa father, sephiroth burn nibelheim town, with/without cloud, tifa has her own reason to join avalanche, she hate sephiroth and shinra

Something people need to think about is what would be Tifa's role outside of her relationship to Cloud? The answer is none, beyond being a background character similar to Yuffie that is. I don't say this to denigrate her, but it's just a fact. Her story revolves around Cloud. Ergo, the devs are left with two or three options. Either preserve/expand upon her relationship with Cloud, reduce her to irrelevancy, or kill her character off. Of these options, which do you guys think is likely?

Aerith's story doesn't rely on Cloud, however. Her story revolves around the external plot, Sephiroth and meteor. You can take Cloud out of the equation, and she would still have something to do. Given this, does it make any sense to expand upon her relationship with Cloud? Ask yourself WHAT is the point of her relationship with Cloud? When you can come with a logical answer, you'll have figured out what the devs plan on doing with her character, IF they plan on doing anything different from the OG with her character.

You wrong
I played OGff 7, I still don't understand the reason aerith joined team avalanche
Oke, aerith mother ( ifalna) was made an experiment by hojo/ shinra, the cetra was destroyed by jenova, but aerith like don't care about all of that
In midgard, OG aerith doesn't even know what jenova is
aerith joined the avalanche just because she wanted to follow, and date with the cloud
if the cloud character is eliminated, wouldn't she still remain a mere flower selling girl in midgar?
But Tifa is different ... without cloud, tifa even tries to kill sephiroth in nibelheim, the reason Tifa joins the avalanche is very clear, Tifa is vengeful with soldier and shinra ,, because tifa father was killed by Sephiroth and her home village is burned

 

[Graymouse]

Yeah, Tifa is popular even more so now the Remake is out. Afterall we are on Page 268 and post # 6,693. I don"t think SE would do something as destructive as killing off Tifa.

 

[odekopeko]

I have read people even saying, they can kill Cloud even, but if they kill Tifa, is over for them. If they kill Tifa, they will also destroy 20 years of compilations and this will be a new story (devs have mentioned Remake is not a new story). But Tifa is a very beloved game character, and after Remake reléase her popularity has increase double than before, even in Japan. So, killing her will be a very bad move for SE wallet lol.

I'm one of those people who will personally fly to Japan and slap them in the face if this happens. But it has nothing to do with shipping or her popularity. Truly. It just doesn't make much narrative sense to kill off Tifa. I see them already setting things up for the Lifestream Sequence. She's the key to unlock his true self, a role that nobody else is capable of doing.

Watching all the three resolution scenes again really puts things into perspective. Because the only, only time I see a brief flash of Nibelheim!Cloud is in those very few seconds before the hug in Tifa's Resolution, where he looks like he suddenly "woke up" and is staring upwards and making those grunting noises. In those few seconds, I felt something struggling to come out from within him. He was so awkward, but that's the beauty of it. I was like, "There! Right there! That's Nibelheim!effing!Cloud."

When you look into Aerith's and Barret's, there is never that weird break. It never felt like there was something wrestling from within him.

I played OGff 7, I still don't understand the reason aerith joined team avalanche

Aerith was never a part of Avalanche. She decided to go on this journey with them to find Sephiroth because he was dangerous, and she needed answers about her Cetra heritage.

 

[frosty]

HAIII everyone. Was one of the really, really, old members back when this was still acf.
So old, in fact, that I think I used to be the custodian of the fan art photobuckets on the first post

Just popped in to say:
Happy to see the club alive. With so many pages! AFTER. ALL. THESE. YEARS.
Happy to see that the remake did Cloud and Tifa justice.
Happy that I'm old and have no energy to look at the LTD anymore, because people will believe whatever they want to. And I'm okay with that

Am here because I swear @JT77fp was someone I knew wayyy back then in THIS club. (Pst. Are you Frying Pan?)

 

[Eerie]

I’m glad to see old members around! Now I don’t feel so old hahahha.

 

[Graymouse]

You wrong, i think you forget, sephiroth kill tifa father, sephiroth burn nibelheim town, with/without cloud, tifa has her own reason to join avalanche, she hate sephiroth and shinra

You wrong
I played OGff 7, I still don't understand the reason aerith joined team avalanche
Oke, aerith mother ( ifalna) was made an experiment by hojo/ shinra, the cetra was destroyed by jenova, but aerith like don't care about all of that
In midgard, OG aerith doesn't even know what jenova is
aerith joined the avalanche just because she wanted to follow, and date with the cloud
if the cloud character is eliminated, wouldn't she still remain a mere flower selling girl in midgar?
But Tifa is different ... without cloud, tifa even tries to kill sephiroth in nibelheim, the reason Tifa joins the avalanche is very clear, Tifa is vengeful with soldier and shinra ,, because tifa father was killed by Sephiroth and her home village is burned

Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with you on this point.

Aerith didn't join Avalanche, and even if she did she wouldnt have joined Avalanche just to follow around a man who is suffering from a mental disorder just to go on a date with him. There is no history between Aerith and Cloud at that point. In direct contrast to Cloud and Tifa, who is his childhood crush.

Besides what you are saying is making Aerith character out to be really shallow. Even in the OG Aerith character is not shallow.

 

[MasterMoogle]

You wrong, i think you forget, sephiroth kill tifa father, sephiroth burn nibelheim town, with/without cloud, tifa has her own reason to join avalanche, she hate sephiroth and shinra

You wrong
I played OGff 7, I still don't understand the reason aerith joined team avalanche
Oke, aerith mother ( ifalna) was made an experiment by hojo/ shinra, the cetra was destroyed by jenova, but aerith like don't care about all of that
In midgard, OG aerith doesn't even know what jenova is
aerith joined the avalanche just because she wanted to follow, and date with the cloud
if the cloud character is eliminated, wouldn't she still remain a mere flower selling girl in midgar?
But Tifa is different ... without cloud, tifa even tries to kill sephiroth in nibelheim, the reason Tifa joins the avalanche is very clear, Tifa is vengeful with soldier and shinra ,, because tifa father was killed by Sephiroth and her home village is burned

I'm not talking about Avalanche. I'm talking about Tifa's role in the main story, which isn't about Avalanche. She may have her own motivations for going after Sephiroth, but that's not what her character arc is about. Tifa's character arc is about Cloud.

 

[JT77fp]

Oh my god, Frosty? Yes of course it's me. So good to hear from you again. It's been a long time we last chatted, even on Facebook. But I was just talking to 'SixtiesPink' recently, who'd been talking to "Rinoa" and others too about the remake. Everyone is crawling out of the woodwork.

I don't think SE is going to change anyone's character arc too much. But it will be interesting to see if Aerith is back to her flirtatious self in Part 2, after kinda ceasing fire at the end of Part 1 and ...

Spoiler

declaring it all isn't real anyway.

 

[Eerie]

Honestly, the reason why they can't have Tifa die is that she is vital to Cloud's arc in the last part of the game, and that's a part that Aerith can't have, since her arc is tied to the overarching arc and they can't swap. If Tifa dies, who saves Cloud? No one, Sephiroth wins, the end. It's how they crafted the plot 20+ years ago, and how it still is present in the narrative. They have shown that Cloud has those flashbacks problems, and how he's prone to visions and such. It's not something that Aerith can heal, it's something that they decided a long time ago that only Tifa could go in his mind and help him. And as soon as Tifa is Cloud's childhood friend and that he has those memory troubles, it's the path they can't sidetrack off too much and that will inevitably end up with True!Cloud being saved by Tifa.