Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[shersita007]

Hello.

About Remake Episode2 when Nojima only called Tifa, the heroine of the game, while Aerith is referred as the most important character of the game plot. This is kinda tricky, but the way I intérpret it after thinking about it is:

- in all stories narratives, (games, novels, movies, etc) the heroine is the one who stays by the heroe side until the end (or the ending couple)

- Aerith is the most important character for the game narrative plot, but she, is no longer referred as another heroine.

Using the theory of the heroine as the one who ends with the heroe, this would make sense. There can't be 2 heroines, when only one ends by the heroe side.

So, Nojima introduce the first cast: Cloud the heroe of the game followed by Tifa the heroine of the game. These two are going to end together again (this reminds me of Nojima AC Reunión Files 'one thing he was sure of, Cloud and Tifa will be together'). And after, they introduced the rest of game characters that are going to move the game plot narrative, giving Aerith the biggest role on this.

Is tricky, but the description of the game characters roles aren't wrong if you look at it this way.

I think we all agree with the description, it's just that it's surprising that they actually said it, and we wonder whether it's on purpose or not.
If it is on purpose, it makes sense, but it could be a coincidence.

I think is on purpose lol, but... They where trying to be subtle with it, trick us and not be so straigth forward spoiling something from the game future narrative, the roles description is regardless of Aerith future destiny, it just hints what is the endgame couple.

 

[insanehobbit]

I've personally never considered the narrative "importance" of a character to have much bearing on the likelihood of them being in an endgame romantic relationship. Perhaps, there's something about the specific usage of the term "heroine" that I haven't noticed before, but there are plenty of examples across all types of media where the most important male does not end up in a romantic relationship with the most important female character (off the top of my head, I can think of Harry Potter, Dawson's Creek, Naruto and Bleach). Even within the FF series, Terra doesn't end up with Locke, Vaan does not end up with Ashe, Lightning does not end up with Snow. Especially in the case of FF7, where I don't think anyone who is arguing in good faith would consider Aerith and Tifa as anything less than the 2nd and 3rd leads of the game after Cloud, I don't think it makes much of a difference either way.

And as nice as it is to have the Word of God acknowledge Tifa's importance, I don't think the people who had been downplaying her importance are really worth engaging with anyways.

Mind you, I'm saying all this with the notion that Cloud and Tifa had only just been reunited before the game's beginning. My interpretation would definitely be different if it turns out like in the OG where Tifa had found Cloud ~2 months prior and nursed him back to health, and having more time to see the inconsistencies in him.

That's the impression I'm getting since Tifa keeps trying to ask him about his past all through Ch. 3. It would be weird for her to being that if she's already been with him for long. Was the 2 months timeline ever explicitly mentioned in game in the OG or is that something that's only found in the Ultimanias? I'm just wondering how big of a retcon it would be.

Speaking of retcons, when thinking about changes between the OG and the Remake, while most of the Remake is an expansion of the OG, there are two particular parts of the Remake that are additions to OG to the extent that they actually change the timeline. The Remake invents an entire day and night of events in Ch. 3 + 4, and another night and day in Ch. 13 + 14. I think this was largely done so that the player would feel more invested in Sector 7 as a whole so that the plate drop would have much more emotional impact than it did in the OG, but it also changes how we'd perceive character relationships simply because Cloud now spends much more time (as in days/hours, not playtime per se) with Tifa, Barret and Avalanche than he did in the OG.

In the Midgar portion of the OG, it's easier to buy Cloud and Aerith's potential romance (and dismiss Cloud and Tifa's) because he spends as much, if not more, time with Aerith as he does any other character in the game. That is no longer the case in the Remake. I think if even the abbreviated versions of Ch. 3 +4; Ch. 13+14 were added to the OG, it would have changed the player's perception of the relationship dynamics.

I wouldn't consider the added days in the Remake huge retcons by any means (certainly nothing on the scale on what they did in Ch. 18), but since the Remake covers such a short period of time, I'm sure they were aware that these additions would change our perception of these relationships vis-a-vis how they were portrayed in the OG. I'm probably reading too much into it (I mean when am I not reading too much into it), but I think this in itself is pretty indicative of the direction they're taking the Remake series.

 

[shersita007]

Ohhh, sorry. When I mention endgame couple, is not mandatory in the romántic concept only, I look at it more like them keeping true to this part of the compilation, where the ending game characters from OG are going to possibly ended the same again on Remake. This is not the only 'importance' For some game character as such, but it can be a hint of the possible ending they are going at in the future.

I don't have knowdlege of the other games you mentioned (sorry, haven't play it) but in FF7 since there is an LT, and a plot narrative where Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other (in the LS), this realization is part of the compilation that came after OG, and Cloud/Tifa moving to live together as a Family, so in a subtle way, there is a hint of romance, even if this is not the 'importance' of the game as such, and even if maybe on the examples you mentioned romance is never implied on the main characters that don't end together.

 

[Celesta]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282325696140935169

Regarding the OG time line, according to the 10th anniversary Ultimania (https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...omplete-timeline-of-the-compilation-of-ffvii/) it was 2 month time period between Tifa and Cloud's reunion at the train station and the first Avalanche mission.
I think the timeline of the remake is different however I can't quite find it.

Also, I sometimes use music as inspiration for creative pieces whether fiction or with consideration for making a music video.
The end result is my eclectic Cloti inspired playlist

Cloti Inspired Playlist

 

[verse1994]

Hi, folks. Sorry for the interruption. You guys keep having great discussion and I am now having the habit to check your guys's great analysis every day.

But I have a question here if someone could give me some sort of answers. I have read some ultimania information, one of the examples could be in this twitter, he collected bunch of information from ultimania about the relationship between Tifa and Cloud.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273880574801793025

I know it seems like ambiguous in OG. but in the ultimania, SE keeps mentioning multiple times that Tifa and Cloud they both confirm their mutual feeling before the final battle and live together in AC and DC. From my point of view, it is confirmed they are canon couple in a romantic way at the end by dev, right? Because if I recall the LS scene, the feeling must be romantic feeling. Otherwise why do dev put these lines here. And I can not find any evidence to support CxA in ultimania.

But why some of people still think they are not canon? I am confused, not sure it is because I am not good at reading or sth to understand those sentences. I know there is definitely not a certain answer since the LTD still exists, I just want to gather some people's idea of that. Thanks!

 

[iamhorde]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281984855253942273

PlayStation Twitter account asking about your favorite video game romance. A Clerith reply is gaining the most traction now. Just FYI in case you'd like to support our fav video game romance

 

[Graymouse]

Daily tweet dump:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282212750056239110

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282315377725157376

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282070908434149377

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281971846171119616

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282250002178375681

Hi, folks. Sorry for the interruption. You guys keep having great discussion and I am now having the habit to check your guys's great analysis every day.

But I have a question here if someone could give me some sort of answers. I have read some ultimania information, one of the examples could be in this twitter, he collected bunch of information from ultimania about the relationship between Tifa and Cloud.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273880574801793025

I know it seems like ambiguous in OG. but in the ultimania, SE keeps mentioning multiple times that Tifa and Cloud they both confirm their mutual feeling before the final battle and live together in AC and DC. From my point of view, it is confirmed they are canon couple in a romantic way at the end by dev, right? Because if I recall the LS scene, the feeling must be romantic feeling. Otherwise why do dev put these lines here. And I can not find any evidence to support CxA in ultimania.

But why some of people still think they are not canon? I am confused, not sure it is because I am not good at reading or sth to understand those sentences. I know there is definitely not a certain answer since the LTD still exists, I just want to gather some people's idea of that. Thanks!

Not to get too deep into the LTD here, but this has been pointed out many times before. Some believe that Cloud X Tifa are in a platonic non romantic relationship but the evidence says otherwise. I guess that could be possible if you completely ignore all the Ultimania's and other mediums that have been released otherwise. Here it is pretty cut and dry.

Tifa’s profile — written by Advent Children’s creators — in the April 2009 Dengeki PlayStation 3 (issue #445) that identified Tifa as serving the role of the children’s mother, or Cloud’s profile from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 38) that says he, Tifa and the children live together like a family.

As well, that book’s profile for Tifa says this: “The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.” This structure alone implies more than simply sharing quarters.

There’s also a comment from Kazushige Nojima on pg. 70 of the Reunion Files where he says this about conceptualizing the story of Advent Children:

“Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.
Everybody would be back home where they belonged.”

This pretty powerful proof that they are in a romantic relationship.

Edited to add:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281984855253942273

PlayStation Twitter account asking about your favorite video game romance. A Clerith reply is gaining the most traction now. Just FYI in case you'd like to support our fav video game romance

@iamhorde I am still so confused how people can take that Aerith line "whatever happens you can't fall in love with me" as being romantic. In my opinion that is completely the opposite. The word "can't" means (impossible, not able too, not happening, will not happen etc.)

 

[loozzer]

@iamhorde I am still so confused how people can take that Aerith line "whatever happens you can't fall in love with me" as being romantic. In my opinion that is completely the opposite. The word "can't" means (impossible, not able too, not happening, will not happen etc.)

i think it's a pretty common cliche. there are literally so many romances that start out with one party saying "ok, but you can't fall in love with me" and then the other party falls in love. and then there's the whole "i told you not to fall with me" angst. and then they live happily ever after. cloti and clerith are based on different tropes.

 

[Graymouse]

i think it's a pretty common cliche. there are literally so many romances that start out with one party saying "ok, but you can't fall in love with me" and then the other party falls in love. and then there's the whole "i told you not to fall with me" angst. and then they live happily ever after. cloti and clerith are based on different tropes.

Trying not to bring too much LTD into the club, but I understand what you are saying, however that only works when you don't know the rest of the story. Unfortunately, we know how this story ends. Aerith will die during the course of the game. So there is no uncertainty in this. The way those lines are spoken in my opinion are stated in fact. That he literally can not fall in love with her because she is going to die.

Also, during that scene when she spoke those lines Aerith broke the 4th wall. She was indeed talking to Cloud but she was also and more importantly talking to the audience. This also kinda makes sense as well do to that there really weren't any 'shippy' moments between Aerith and Cloud after CH14.

 

[iamhorde]

I guess many have not played the OG and perhaps some may hold on to the hope that the story might change in the remake.

The biggest tangible change to me though is bringing Zack back to life and it lends additional meaning to the “can’t fall in love with me”. Breaking the 4th wall, it sounds more like “you can’t fall in love with me... like seriously, my first love was brought back to life and we’ve only spend like 2 days together? It’s not real”

Besides, it’s going to be quite awkward for Cloud to be going after his friend and savior’s true love? Don’t think we need another LTD between Cloud x Zack x Aerith.

Anyway I’m fine with however others want to interpret it. I’m happy with all the scenes we got and the analyses from insanehobbit to make it so much more special.

The chemistry, the unresolved sexual tension, the promise. There’s so much going on with CloTi. I think the characters and scenes speak for themselves.

 

[JT77fp]

I'll just share some thoughts regarding predictions for Part 2, specifically in regards to character & relationship development. I believe the main focus should be on the supporting cast, just like in the OG. At this stage, it would be exploring the character backstories associated with Corel, Cosmo Canyon, Gongaga (Zack) etc.

But of course, we'd expect more 'hero and heroine' development too! Here's what I think in the cut below.

Spoiler: Cloti in Part 2

I've seen it mentioned that Cloud and Tifa could grow apart in the second act due to their conflicting recollections of the past. This could happen for dramatic effect in Remake. Not everything should be rosy at this point in time and conflict does make the story interesting. But I was quite interested in how the OG handled this, so I went through Youtube videos of the OG to check it out. I was surprised to find that apart from a few times where Tifa says "... ..." to Cloud, their relationship in the OG actually develops along the same lines as what we've seen in Remake so far.

There is her GS date scene, which obviously develops the romantic aspect. But there are other subtle interactions. After Cloud loses it at the Temple of the Ancients, Barret is really berating Cloud for wanting to give up. While Tifa softly encourages him, saying, "I believe in you, Cloud". (My recollection was that Tifa walked out of the room angry with Cloud, but I was surprised to find that I was wrong; It was only Barret who did that).

My point is that Cloud and Tifa do not need to be in deep conflict to satisfy the continuity of the story. In the OG, they remain close despite Tifa's doubts. Tifa often reiterates her belief in Cloud. Conversely, Cloud also states in the Northern Crater that he relies on their shared memories and her faith in him for support. This reinforcement happens all the way till Cloud's final act in the Northern Crater. Now, given how well all the Cloti cuddles in Remake have been received by the fans, I wouldn't bet on that being snuffed out in Part 2. In fact, I've said before that Cloud would have to remain closely connected to Tifa for her to realistically want to devote her life to caring for him in Mideel.

--------

Spoiler: Aerith predictions

I think we're going to see a lot more of AerTi. Along the lines of a wiser Aerith helping Tifa cope with her doubts and more "follow your heart" type stuff. And Tifa being a girlfriend to Aerith that she never had in her lonely childhood. It would not surprise me that the Gold Saucer scene is split into a choice between Cloud and someone, followed by a non-optional AerTi component as well. They're both great characters and it pains me to this day to see their fans remembering them only for fighting over a guy!

The Clerith relationship will be the hardest one to develop, I feel. It's changed the most from the OG, especially with Aerith dropping bombshells in her resolution scene. "You can't fall in love with me" is just about impossible to ascribe to being a plot element because it is an optional scene. Aerith can't address that line in future to say that she didn't really mean what she was saying or that she was confused. Yet, she can't ignore it and just start hitting on Cloud again because it contradicts what she optionally said in Part 1! So my guess is that the writers will develop a strong friendship bond between CxA, playing it quite safe and leaving open the Zerith angle in the afterlife or alternate universe...whatever.

 

[Eerie]

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, Tifa told him in the Lifestream scene that despite her doubts, she chose to believe he was the real Cloud. Rewatching that scene made me rethink the doubts I carried for the Kalm scene, and I definitely think that this is going to get reframed to be better understood by the players - hence the talk she should have with Aerith, because Aerith too should have doubts, now that she's seen Zack AND Cloud coming back to Midgar, I mean she should wonder how come Cloud seems to have forgotten entirely about him. So I think they will still develop, because the rift should be Northern Crater after all - this is where Tifa gets manipulated by Sephiroth too, so that she'd doubt Cloud too much to be his support. As he stated back then, only her opinion mattered to him, and was what let him believe that he was Cloud of Nibelheim - something that I also think is better developped in Remake than in the OG, because you can see through the game just how much Cloud takes extra steps for her, look out for her, that she is indeed "special".

That reminds me, I've ventured a bit in tumblr recently to see what cloti fans were talking about. I think they take a lot of assumptions and sometimes go way too far, though some of their observations are really cool. But, I disagree with a lot of stuff posted there. I think it formed an echo chamber, so I want to warn people to be extra wary in those waters, because I don't want people to be deceived? Take what is said over there with a grain of salt. Step back, remember that the devs put equal clerith and cloti. And that yes, cloti looks way stronger, but that's because in the OG, there was none of that. The OG hid cloti because it wanted the Lifestream scene twist. Things are different right now because they want to expand and develop the story and relationships more.

A few things were good though, like that post showing that Cloud was concerned about Tifa but it's Aerith who answered. And I was like, completely disagreeing with the end of the post - because she watches the scenes in slow motion without sound, she totally missed that Tifa was super PISSED in that scene, and both Cloud and Aerith take a hit there. And this is why Cloud goes extra step the following time to protect her, and makes sure that Tifa knows he's asking her if she's ok (even though, Aerith still answers). I find it super odd? This particular tumblr made me realise t hat Cloud looks at/checks out at Tifa way more than what I thought though. He's very often seen turning his head or body towards her, something that we don't necessarily catch or notice when the game is going at full speed.

It was this post that made me realise the super obvious parallel of the opening scene of the HA Highwind scene and the ch14 resolution scene. I guess not having watched the first for a long while means that I was bound to not see it though.

There was a last post I wanted to quote too, but I can't seem to find it. There was something that appeared clearly to me that they totally missed, oh well, I'll look around, because it's more telling with the pictures. But what I wanted to say is, there is good and not so good, some theories are kind of too much, just wanted to warn some of you who maybe aren't used to tumblr.

 

[minami758]

@JT77fp That's true actually, I hadn't thought about that. Cloud and Tifa never really "pull away" from each other in the OG so much as dance around each other's uncertainties. I was sort of thinking there'd be a conscious decision to maybe have some sort of wedge (pun unintended) driven in between them in the next part, but I could also see just them continuing the hesitancy and unresolved tension.

Either way, Cloud and Tifa are pretty much way too close in Part 1 already for them to back away from continuing their development in Part 2. I don't completely trust SE, but like hobbit said, unless they completely forego everything they've set up in Part 1, I see Cloud/Tifa's development continuing in a positive way.

 

[Stiggie]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281984855253942273

PlayStation Twitter account asking about your favorite video game romance. A Clerith reply is gaining the most traction now. Just FYI in case you'd like to support our fav video game romance

This is just annoying, how is it possible that so many people still don't get this?

 

[loozzer]

This is just annoying, how is it possible that so many people still don't get this?

i don't think there's anything to "get" some people just prefer different things. not everyone has to ship "canon"

 

[Stiggie]

i don't think there's anything to "get" some people just prefer different things. not everyone has to ship "canon"

But it's not about peoples favorite ship, it's about their favorite romantic pair, I'd say the pre-requisite for that is for them to actually be a romantic pair.

 

[Eerie]

I found the post I wanted to talk about, yeah!

This post is really interesting in how it breaks down Aerith's speech. It's something I hadn't noticed, how Aerith looks at Tifa, or how Cloud looks back to Tifa too (I maybe need to rewatch that scene haha). But, she states:

Cloud here looks like he realizes she’s gonna be there. Maybe he’s thinking about how she saved him from falling to his death. Or maybe he’s thinking about what happened AFTER she saved him from falling to his death.

With the screencap of Cloud saying "and frankly, I've heard enough of howling for a lifetime". I think that, since they are going to fight Sephiroth, Cloud is worried because of his vision in the Shinra tower where Sephiroth kills her. He looks worried there to me, right before looking determined (he won't let that happen, and the reward for this is probably him saving her later in the fight against Harbinger). Thoughts?

 

[loozzer]

But it's not about peoples favorite ship, it's about their favorite romantic pair, I'd say the pre-requisite for that is for them to actually be a romantic pair.

doesn't a ship imply that there's a level of romance involved?

some people do think that clerith is a romantic pair, nothing wrong with that imo

 

[Stiggie]

doesn't a ship imply that there's a level of romance involved?

some people do think that clerith is a romantic pair, nothing wrong with that imo

Not really, some people ship characters from entirely different universes.

 

[Yumelinh]

For some reason, I didn't get any notification for new posts here for the past days, but in the end, I got to have a bunch of great posts to read all at once, so all is good


As for predictions for Part 2, I honestly don't know what to expect, lol. I think both arguments that they can either grow a little apart or even much closer are equally interesting and based on good reasons, so I guess they can go either way or even a bit of both? I don't trust SE too much, but after how well they handled Cloud and Tifa's relationship in Part 1, I guess they deserve a little bit of credit here.

Aside from that, I'm equally interested in how they will portray the LTD from now on. Part 1 made what was quite simple in OG a little more complicated by having both girls so much closer to each other, plus Aerith's 'supposed' meta-knowledge of future events. But that's a talk from another thread I guess.

With the screencap of Cloud saying "and frankly, I've heard enough of howling for a lifetime". I think that, since they are going to fight Sephiroth, Cloud is worried because of his vision in the Shinra tower where Sephiroth kills her. He looks worried there to me, right before looking determined (he won't let that happen, and the reward for this is probably him saving her later in the fight against Harbinger). Thoughts?

I saw a few people from Twitter actually connecting this quote to Tifa's resolution scene ( since she cries on his shoulder), but since that scene is optional, I don't know if this connection was truly intentional. Maybe he was talking about the whole plate fall incident and Tifa's reaction there?

 

[Eerie]

All the resolutions scenes are canon but Tifa's resolution scene is already hinted at with Leslie, so I don't think it's that. It's not what Cloud says (it was more to point at what part of the post I was referring to), because they just heard for the first time the whispers howling. Once was enough, no, the thing is, why Cloud turns around and, imho, looks concerned/worried? What he says is disconnected from what he thought mere seconds before, I think.

 

[Yumelinh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282234036308467715

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281307224913006592

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258776324883140613

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282359725745737728

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279838379073351680

 

[Yumelinh]

All the resolutions scenes are canon but Tifa's resolution scene is already hinted at with Leslie, so I don't think it's that. It's not what Cloud says (it was more to point at what part of the post I was referring to), because they just heard for the first time the whispers howling. Once was enough, no, the thing is, why Cloud turns around and, imho, looks concerned/worried? What he says is disconnected from what he thought mere seconds before, I think.

I agree that all resolutions are canon. My point was more that I don't think that SE would reference Tifa's resolution at that particular moment since it looks like a very information dump moment and it would require the player to have got the right resolution to understand that. But I get your point here and you're right! it's not what he said, but his actions there. It's even more interesting that, once again, Tifa is the one he seems to be looking at when he looks back, Honestly, I really don't know what to think of this scene at this moment as in.. what were his thoughts at this moment.

 

[Graymouse]

For some reason, I didn't get any notification for new posts here for the past days, but in the end, I got to have a bunch of great posts to read all at once, so all is good

I am having the same problem with a lot of my watched threads as well. Not sure what is going on. I have to manually check each of the threads now.

I really like that SE is starting to do a lot of character development for these two. A lot of people are starting to realize that Tifa is more than a short skirt and boobs, liar and or a manipulator or whatever negative character trait you can add to it. Not saying that is all she was before, but I have seen a lot of blogs that sure go out of their way to say so.

 

[verse1994]

Not to get too deep into the LTD here, but this has been pointed out many times before. Some believe that Cloud X Tifa are in a platonic non romantic relationship but the evidence says otherwise. I guess that could be possible if you completely ignore all the Ultimania's and other mediums that have been released otherwise. Here it is pretty cut and dry.

Hi, thanks for the explanation. So in my cases, I grew up in China, I think Japan and China shares similar oriental culture, when I read the book and I saw "好意", I was pretty much sure it meant romantics feeling, it meant love, they like each other. But when I first time looked up the internet about LTD, I was confused. Because I don't think "好意" means friendship. But as you mentioned, if the feeling of their love is about if it is platonic, that makes sense. Because we barely see their sexual tension in both ACC and DC. I just hope if that's the case, the debate will end because I see so much skinship in Remake.