FF Newbie Watches Advent Children Complete

[SilverArrow20XX]

It is never once said to be Jenova cells in OtWtaS or The Kids are Alright at the very least.
It goes out of it's way to say memetic legacy nearly every time.
Reeve says it is caused by "Remnants of Jenova in the lifestream"

Kilmister says this on page 181 of OtWtaS.

Kilmister: The pain, the fever--these are signs that the body is fighting off a contaminating substance. It does appear that the black liquid is our true opponent.
Rufus: But what is it exactly? Are you implying it has intent?
Kilmister: I believe it is related to Sephiroth's or Jenova's genetic material. But not the material itself. Perhaps I should call it a remnant--a memetic legacy? As I said before, the characteristics are very similar to what we observed in the SOLDIER program.

Here, Kilmister is very clearly defining Jenova's memetic legacy (remnants) as something that isn't her genetic material. Which her cells are.

Furthermore, Lifestream Black III, which details Sephiroth leaving his mark on the afflicted, only mentions Jenova in context of needing a piece of her body to revive, and that he currently doesn't have access to a piece. I would think a good amount of cells would qualify.

 

[ForceStealer]

The "good amount" of cells is precisely why he needs the head. The smattering of cells that cause the stigma in someone isn't enough

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is never once said to be Jenova cells in OtWtaS or The Kids are Alright at the very least.
It goes out of it's way to say memetic legacy nearly every time.
Reeve says it is caused by "Remnants of Jenova in the lifestream"

Kilmister says this on page 181 of OtWtaS.

Kilmister: The pain, the fever--these are signs that the body is fighting off a contaminating substance. It does appear that the black liquid is our true opponent.
Rufus: But what is it exactly? Are you implying it has intent?
Kilmister: I believe it is related to Sephiroth's or Jenova's genetic material. But not the material itself. Perhaps I should call it a remnant--a memetic legacy? As I said before, the characteristics are very similar to what we observed in the SOLDIER program.

Here, Kilmister is very clearly defining Jenova's memetic legacy (remnants) as something that isn't her genetic material. Which her cells are.

Furthermore, Lifestream Black III, which details Sephiroth leaving his mark on the afflicted, only mentions Jenova in context of needing a piece of her body to revive, and that he currently doesn't have access to a piece. I would think a good amount of cells would qualify.

So, Sephiroth's will needs a way into the body, whether it be via the contaminated water or whatever else. The cells give him an "in" if they're there, but the cells alone aren't the cause. Even with them there, geostigma doesn't seem guaranteed. Remember that Cloud was carrying the cells around for a good while and didn't have an issue until he became depressed.

Also remember the people in "Dirge of Cerberus" who were gunned down for having Jenova's cells (Hojo's copy specifies that he made sure he got sacrifices who didn't have those). Those people were infected but fine once Sephiroth's will was out of the picture.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

The only source that mentions the cells at all in relation to Geostigma seems to be the 10th anniversary Ultimania, and even there it's the infection itself, not a catalyst. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mistranslation of Jenova Remnant.

It spreads to spiritually vulnerable people. Be they physically hurt, ill, or traumatized in some way. Most notably, people who think they're going to die.
Rufus for example became vulnerable to infection when it occurred to him that he was probably going to drown, and he was immediately attacked by the negative lifestream in the water.

Hojo in Dirge says he had to make lifestream untainted by Jenova.
It's been a long time since I played Dirge, but skimming through the scenes, I couldn't find any reference to to those scanners picking up traces of Jenova's calls, rather than just being able to tell they've been tainted.

I thought it was Jenova cells since AC launched, cause that's what everybody said.
But the books make it pretty clear it's memetic and specifically not genetic material. And Vincent makes it clear that that memetic virus is itself, the invading substance that the body is fighting against.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kilmister literally calls it "genetic material," so I don't know how you take that and "characteristics... very similar to what we observed in the SOLDIER program" and not come to realize it refers to Jenova's cells infiltrating or lurking in the body. That's exactly what the SOLDIER program did. And "remnants of Jenova" are exactly what those stray cells are. Stray remnants or pieces of Jenova, at a cellular level.

The term "mimetic legacy" refers specifically to Jenova's cellular legacy that mimics and conceals itself as it propagates throughout the Planet's Lifestream, creating a "Negative Lifestream." Jenova and it's cells practice mimesis or mimicry, hence why its properties and existence are called a "mimetic legacy."

The Negative Lifestream is a corrupting, infectious physical and spiritual contamination. It mimics the normal Lifestream. Sephiroth and Jenova's mimetic legacy lurk within said Lifestream and is able to displace souls who die of Geostigma. And they are referred to interchangeably on purpose because Sephiroth and Jenova's abilities and wills end up becoming one. Sephiroth essentially subsumes Jenova and inherits it's abilities.

The Crisis Core Complete Guide makes it clear too.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

He literally says it looks related to their genetic material but isn't.

It's memetic legacy. Not mimetic. From Meme.
A memetic legacy is when your ideology lives on through others.
In other words, it behaves like Jenova cells, but isn't.
It's why Tseng thought Kadaj was Jenova, when Kadaj has no Jenova cells.
The very word implies that it's an idea of Jenova.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kilmister was referring to the implication from Rufus that Geostigma has "intent."

He says exactly, "I believe it is related to Sephiroth's or Jenova's genetic material. But not the material itself." And that's correct. The cellular matter on its own has no intent, and was not a disease on its own. it wasn't until Sephiroth utilized his will and made the cells deleterious that Geostigma came to exist. There is no "ideology." They're cells working against the body's immune system. Jenova doesn't carry an "ideology" except maybe destruction and consumption of spirit energy. You really seem to have a huge misunderstanding about how Geostigma works, when the movie tells the audience clearly the stigma involves Jenova cells and the body's reaction to it.

Kadaj when speaking to Rufus: "My brothers and sisters who share Mother's cells will all assemble. And together we'll take revenge on the planet. We've already sent out the invitations but.. you know, someone's gone and hidden the guest of honor."

Rufus: "Invitations..?"

Kadaj: "The stigma. But you know all about that, sir."

Vincent Valentine at the Forgotten City: "The stigma... It's a symptom of alien matter infesting the body. The body tries to eliminate it and overcompensates."

Kadaj gathered the children who were infected with Geostigma to help him find Jenova's head through use of their Reunion instinct. That's why they were led back to Edge.

Tseng mistakenly thought Kadaj was Jenova because Kadaj exhibited Jenova's mimicry ability to shapeshift into loved ones and other people to deceive Kyrie and others to get close to them. The same ability of mimicry that Ifalna talks about in FFVII and the FFVII Ultimania Omega describes as Jenova's predatory behavior.

*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings
of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to
immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the
Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this
was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
According to Ifalna, the Ancients infected with the virus lost their sanity
and turned into monsters.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 2)
As Sephiroth said in the Whirlwind Maze, when Cloud met Tifa, he formed a new
personality.

Because Kadaj is a remnant of Sephiroth and possesses his abilities, it naturally can use Jenova's mimicry despite being a spirit body remnant. Mimicry has been Jenova's trademark ability and it's not about it being a "meme." It mimics prey and hides among them. That's it's "legacy" since it is exactly how it destroyed the Cetra and was able to corrupt and poison the Lifestream from within.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

Kadaj cannot shape shift. He can only appear as loved ones to the person looking. Similar to how Sephiroth can make Cloud see Sephiroth clones as him in the remake.
Which is something Jenova could also do, but he can't physically change like she can.
Tseng still saw him as Kadaj while he was appearing to Kyrie as her dead red headed friend.
So yes, Tseng saw him display abilities Jenova had and connected the dots.
And just as Kadaj is a spirit body remnant that possesses Jenova's abilities.
That is exactly what the stigma also is. Spiritual remnants.

It is memetic legacy. The legacy is memetic. It is about it being a meme. Not about mimicry.
It is described as memetic many times in the novels and is never once attributed to Jenova's mimic ability.
Maybe ideology was the wrong word, given her nature. More like the idea OF her. Her instincts and abilities.
But it absolutely is about the meme aspect of it.

Geostigma is not the exact same thing as the blight Jenova herself brought about.
She was actually present for that one and shape shifting.
She was infecting people with her actual cells, which resulted in them turning into monsters, as one would expect seeing Shinra's Jenova experiments.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kadaj is shapeshifting his appearance towards his targets; I know it's illusory but it functions the same way. Hence Tseng noticing the similarity. So how can you say it's not related to "mimicry?" Kadaj is using that very skill to get close to his victims and deceive them.

And the movie clearly says, "The stigma... It's a symptom of alien matter infesting the body" and you're still trying to argue it's not a cellular disease from Jenova's "alien matter?"

Again, the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Crisis Core Complete Guide and the movie itself explicitly states the cause of Geostigma being Jenova cells infecting the body and it causing a lethal immune response. That's not in question.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

I mean, it's related to mimicry in that it's related to Jenova, who has mimicry, and so the spiritual remnants (her memes) also involve mimicry.
But the memetic legacy itself isn't mimicry, it just....also includes mimicry.

Alien matter refers to foreign substances entering the body.
In this case, the "black liquid" which is specifically described as not being genetic material by Kilmister, but rather memetic in nature.

The movie itself does NOT mention Jenova cells at all. (In relation to being part of the infection)
Vincent specifically says it is "an alien substance". When asked what that is, he replies "Jenova's memetic legacy".
The term Kilmister coined when researching Geostigma to refer to the black substance that is specifically not genetic material.

So I'd say it's definitely in question, and leaning towards "definitely not cells".
The Crisis Core Complete guide, I only see the Keyword collection here. Which has no mention at all of Jenova cells being related to Geostigma.
A fan translation the 10th Anniversary Ultimania remains the only source at all that mentions Jenova Cells being part of the infection.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The black liquid carries Jenova cells and is water filled with corrupted, tainted Lifestream. Kilmister never said Geostigma has nothing to do with genetic material. He is referring to it having a sense of will. Don't parse the text outside of the actual conversation with Rufus it was contained in. He compares it specifically to the SOLDIER program and how Jenova cells were imparted to members of SOLDIER in the first place.

And again. The script which I have just copied and pasted to you verbatim quotes Vincent as saying, ""The stigma... It's a symptom of alien matter infesting the body. The body tries to eliminate it and overcompensates." Kadaj calls those infected with Geostigma "brothers and sisters who share mother's cells." That's not a paraphrase. That's the script. The direct line from the movie. "Alien matter" is referring to Jenova.

The Crisis Core Complete Guide describes Jenova as:

Jenova

The “life form excavated from the earth” mentioned in the “Ancients Project Outline” document in Scene 03-18 refers to “Jenova”, an intelligent life form known as the “calamity from the skies” which crashed into the Knowlespole on a meteorite approximately 2000 years before. Jenova has an instinctive drive to destroy planets, and utilising its abilities to inject a virus into its target and transform them into monsters, and to mimic other forms according to its opponent’s thoughts, it drove the Ancients to near extinction. It was later sealed away by a counter-attack by the Ancients, and remained dormant in the ground until it was exhumed 30 years ago.

Its relation to Sephiroth is like that of a parent and child, and in “FFVII” it continued to work with Sephiroth to summon Meteor and destroy the planet. After the final battle it was defeated by Cloud’s team and lost its physical body, but its mimetic legacy lived on within the Lifestream, and in “AC” it created remnants such as Kadaj.

The mimetic legacy is Geostigma, which is the disease caused by its cells. And if you're going to somehow say the "fan translations" are inaccurate, then you better have some actual evidence aside from the fact you've been proven wrong.


You can say it's in question but again you're simply wrong

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

My evidence is that all official English sources refer to it as memetic and never as Jenova Cells.
Your evidence is one passage from a fan translation, which could easily translate "Jenova Remnants" to "Jenova Cells" if they're already predisposed to thinking they're the same thing.
I'm not saying it's definitely inaccurate, but it's suspect when all other sources consistently don't refer to it that way.

He compares it to SOLDIER because the effects are similar to those found in SOLDIER.
Meaning the memetic legacy has similar traits to Jenova cells, which is the whole point.

You keep saying that it being referred to as alien matter means it's cells. This is simply wrong. The alien matter is referring to the black liquid.

The memetic legacy is indeed Geostigma, but there seems to be very little evidence that they are cells.

The actual quote from Kadaj is...
You and I are brethren.
Brothers and sister chosen when we inherited mother's memetic legacy through the lifestream.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Do you speak Japanese? Or do you have any language experience or even knowledge to assert that the translation would somehow be "Jenova remnants" when the actual translators who do fluent Japanese translations, translated it as "Jenova cells?" Because if you don't, you're simply speaking out the side of your neck.

The quote I used from Kadaj was when he's speaking to Rufus. Again, that's the verbatim script, you don't need to tell me what the actual quote is, since I provided it. The black liquid you keep referring to is definitely a substance that does contain the "alien matter" of Jenova's cells. You trying to ignore that fact is funny but not accurate at all. The movie and materials make it clear the disease functions via Jenova's cellular substance but somehow you're divorcing that fact from its very real biologically based infection that kills people via an immune system response. How does that even make sense?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The movie itself does NOT mention Jenova cells at all. (In relation to being part of the infection)

The actual quote from Kadaj is...

You and I are brethren.

Brothers and sister chosen when we inherited

You're confusing two separate scenes. When talking to Rufus, Kadaj refers to the kids with geostigma as having Jenova's cells.

The only source that mentions the cells at all in relation to Geostigma seems to be the 10th anniversary Ultimania, and even there it's the infection itself, not a catalyst. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mistranslation of Jenova Remnant.

I checked just now. What it says is the infection is caused by the ジェノバ因子 -- "因子" by itself often being Japanese shorthand for 遺伝因子 ("genetic factor"), as when there's discussion of Genesis's genes and how they were transposed to the Tsviets.

If I were to speculate on the meaning here, by tying it into Kilmister's observation that "it is related to Sephiroth's or Jenova's genetic material. But not the material itself," we could suppose that the implication is that in Jenova/Sephiroth's case, their genes (i.e. the "encoding" that makes their cells fundamentally be their cells) is the presence of their will to contaminate, subsume, control, etc.

That leaves us also to synthesize Kadaj's reference to "my brothers and sisters who share Mother's cells," as well as Vincent's observation that geostigma is "a symptom of alien matter infesting the body." We can't not incorporate these into our analysis.

Let's start with Kadaj's line that "My brothers and sisters who share Mother's cells will all assemble." In Japanese, this is 母さんの細胞を貰った仲間が一か所に集まるんだ -- "My comrades who received Mother's cells will gather in one place."

For this part, there is no ambiguity, as 細胞 always means biological cells.

Next, we'll look at Vincent's lines.

(official localization)
---
Vincent: "The stigma. It’s a symptom of alien matter infesting the body. The body tries to eliminate it and overcompensates. Inside our bodies is a current, like the Lifestream. That current is what fights off any malevolent intruders."

Cloud: "What do you mean by 'intruder'?"

Vincent: "The Sephiroth gene. Jenova’s memetic legacy. Call it what you want."
---

(original Japanese)
---
Vincent: 星痕は体内に巣食った異物を排除するシステムの過剰な働きが原因らしい。
体の中にもライフストリームのような流れがあり。
それが侵入してきた邪悪な物質と戦う。

Cloud: 邪悪な物質・・・

Vincent: セフィロス遺伝子・・・ジェノバの遺伝子伝。好きに呼べ。
---

(my translation of the Japanese)
---
Vincent: "The pathogenesis of the stigma appears to be excessive labor by the system that expels foreign substances that have rooted in the body. There is a Lifestream-like current inside the body. It fights the wicked substance that has invaded."

Cloud: "Wicked substance ...?"

Vincent: "The Sephiroth gene ... Jenova's genetic transmittance. Call it what you like."
---

So, the things we have to incorporate here as the cause of geostigma are:

- Jenova's/Sephiroth's genes
- An invading substance/material/physical matter identified as those genes
- Jenova's cells being named as at least one example of that substance identified as Jenova's genes

Certainly we also have to incorporate the contaminated black water described in "On the Way to A Smile" and "The Kids Are Alright" as well, which at the least contains Sephiroth's genes, if not Jenova's actual cells. Perhaps any substance that contains "The Sephiroth gene ... Jenova's genetic transmittance" would qualify as the "wicked substance" that can receive Sephiroth's malicious will and thereby trigger the body's excessive immune response.

Personally, I would defer most of all to Kadaj's description given who and what he is, and then just conclude the black water is contaminated by trace amounts of the cells. Even if we do suppose, though, that the black water is outright contaminated by Sephiroth's will itself, with no other physical intermediary needed in making that possible, the black water is still a physical substance that enters the body and implants the Sephiroth gene/Jenova's genetic transmittance.

If that black water itself contains the encoding that makes Jenova cells function as Jenova cells, is that not more or less saying the water becomes an expanded form of the cells?

In any case, Kadaj is explicit and unambiguous about the cells in the kids.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Testify, @The Twilight Mexican, preach it.

 

[Tetsujin]

I wonder to this day where they got "memetic" from in the English script when it's clearly something genetic and the Japanese script seems to say "genetic" as well.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova's "genetic transmittance" certainly seems to refer to its ability to "mimic" other lifeforms at a cellular level, and how it uses this ability to transmit or pass on said traits or even infection to other carriers of its cells.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

Thank you.
That's what I wanted when I asked for a source rather than just being told "it says it here" and then finding it didn't lol.

So that can hearken back to my previous theory that uses the other definition of memetic legacy.
That being one's children.
Meaning Jenova's memetic legacy would be Sephiroth's genetic material, which behaves a lot like hers.
And it wouldn't be wrong to say one with Sephiroth's cells also has Jenova's cells.
But would also explain why they don't work as a means to revive Seph, since he needs the original cells from the source.

That "Genetic Transmittance" is translated as "Memetic Legacy" by official teams also seems to indicate to me that it means "Genetics descended from Jenova".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And it wouldn't be wrong to say one with Sephiroth's cells also has Jenova's cells.
But would also explain why they don't work as a means to revive Seph, since he needs the original cells from the source.

Could be. Perhaps the thinking there is similar to what was applied in "Crisis Core" with Genesis trying to find Jenova's original cells or, failing that, "the last pure S-cells."