Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
Someone who has grown without antisemitic propaganda or discrimination, therefore they don't have that pejorative image ingrained into their minds.
Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this
- Thread starter Noble0ne
- Start date
Someone who has grown without antisemitic propaganda or discrimination, therefore they don't have that pejorative image ingrained into their minds.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Dude you're forcing me to go through this shit yet again, here is the tweet:
I mean don't force me to defend her on this topic since I do believe she's transphobic ok.
I mean don't force me to defend her on this topic since I do believe she's transphobic ok.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Of course not, I'm a silly woman! What do I know?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Seeing as how J.K. Rowling has grown up in the United Kingdom since 1965, I sincerely doubt she would be ignorant of the societal issues Jewish people have faced, let alone the concept antisemitism and stereotypical tropes.
Her intention or knowledge doesn't change the fact that that is what she constructed in her fantasy portrayal of fantasy goblins in her story. They somehow exemplify almost every notable negative stereotype coded towards Jewish people. And that's not some esoteric or deep level reading between the lines, it's simply apparent on the surface.
The fact Jewish people have been characterized as goblins and goblin-like in folklore and history doesn't help matters, either.
Her intention or knowledge doesn't change the fact that that is what she constructed in her fantasy portrayal of fantasy goblins in her story. They somehow exemplify almost every notable negative stereotype coded towards Jewish people. And that's not some esoteric or deep level reading between the lines, it's simply apparent on the surface.
The fact Jewish people have been characterized as goblins and goblin-like in folklore and history doesn't help matters, either.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
So we burn the witch or what, I'm not buying torches and pitchforks for nothing.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
...The mizerly Jewish money-man is a trope that Shakespeare has cemented into cultural consciousness through the canonocity of his library, and even existed before that. It's one of those toxic tropes where it wriggles its way into the cultural landscape in sometimes innocuous ways. In that sense, I have no doubt that Rowling was channeling it in some way. Whether it was a conscious or unconscious microaggression I can't say for sure, but I would assume it's probably the latter.
I just... really don't see how anyone can take everything into account and still say it's not there. It doesn't take a particularly deep look into anti-Antisemitism in popular culture to notice.
Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
Eerie
Fire and Blood
JK also implied in her Tweet that only women menstruate. Men and non-binary people can menstruate too.
See I don't think she thought about "implying" at all. I think she got mad and reacted on the spot about the title. Which is pretty offensive to women. So to please like, less than 2% probably of the concerned population, you are erasing all women who actually suffer or have suffered from menstruating, who have been told "you're only wombs", etc. etc.
I think this is why a lot of "old guard/old guard style" feminists are sadly turning anti-trans. It's a reality, it's because they feel that being a woman is being erased, while they should just aknowledge that trans women are women who happen to have both the same AND different problems than them. But a lot of old guard feminists can be pretty hard on this, I find out. Mostly because, I think, they have fought really hard when they were young against a really harsh patriarcal society, which to this day still exist. So the women's problems are still standing and now they have to accept men who feel women, and they don't get it. They don't understand. It's sad but it's the truth.
But when you say "people who bleed" on top of that to decribe, let's be real, mostly women (like 98% I don't know how many percent are affected and are/were not women, but it's probably a rather small one, feel free to correct me), they will definitely feel attacked and erased at the profit of people who were born privileged, compared to them. And it's pretty worrying that a woman gets threatened rather violently because she is expressing that - which had IMHO little to do with transphobia at first, and then degenerated into the "ewww please no stop it" talk.
IMHO that's one big problem that we'll have to tackle in the upcoming years, it's that you can't include all fights under the same banner. Because sometimes interests do interesect, and sometimes they don't. Like in France, someone proposed to add a black band to the LGBT flag to add the fight against racism and all lives matter thing with the LGBT fights, and while some LGBT would definitely want to help, I fear that a lot of gay people would despise this (for the sole reason that they get beaten down a LOT by POC here in France hence why a lot vote RN which makes me cringe since the RN is also pretty anti-LGBT but pretends to be LGBT friendly nowadays to get their votes). So there are a lot of nuances in the various fights and my worry is that by pushing everything together, that could also be repulsive to others because they don't feel that they fight the same fights. IDK if I'm clear :/
Maybe I'm amongst the most pessimistic people around here there so there's that and I hope I'm wrong.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I mean... goblins looking the way they do and being all about gold, jewels or mining in some way is a very universal concept by now. I'd say the concept has managed to escape whatever stereotype it was associated with and has joined the ranks of orcs, dwarves, elves, fay, centaurs, vampires, halflings and a dozen other stock fantasy creature tropes that come with their own physical features and cultural ideas half-baked into them. There's still enough wiggle-room in the concept to put an authors own spin on it to make it more than the stereotype it started as. And more importantly, give it an in-universe reason for why the trope is the way it is.
Some goblins are miners. Some are vagrants. Some are engineers. Some are metal-smiths. Most of them still manage to hold on to their smaller size and have some way of being clever with their hands/minds. And there is a lot of ways to spin that idea that aren't inherently negative stereotypes.
And the more versions there are of goblins, the harder it is to link them up with a raciest stereotype at all. Which is probably the best outcome: there's more tropes to play with from a creative standpoint and the trope isn't viewed as being inherently negative.
Some goblins are miners. Some are vagrants. Some are engineers. Some are metal-smiths. Most of them still manage to hold on to their smaller size and have some way of being clever with their hands/minds. And there is a lot of ways to spin that idea that aren't inherently negative stereotypes.
And the more versions there are of goblins, the harder it is to link them up with a raciest stereotype at all. Which is probably the best outcome: there's more tropes to play with from a creative standpoint and the trope isn't viewed as being inherently negative.
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
See, I was having a great time reading all the insights in this thread. Now I'm just confused why the discussion which has grown too big has shifted to J.K. Rowling. I only know her to be the author of Harry Potter (haven't read the books nor watched the movies, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about), but other than that I have no opinion on her. And I am utterly lost. I'm just liking posts here and there because they sound like memes.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
So I take it you didn't read the essay she posted today? Whatever charitable interpretation you're reading in regards to her possible interpretation of that headline, is shattered by her essay's reuse of some of the most overused and cliche trans boogeymen and strawmen that minimizes the fucked up distortions and attacks she's manifested towards them.
It's not about being an "old-guard" feminist. Lots of older feminists have accepted trans-women and believe they deserve equality and respect as much as cis-women. Rowling is simply a TERF, a trans-exclusionary radical feminist. She holds the belief that sex is the only thing that determines an individual's gender, and she equates trans-women to men. That's a simple expression of transphobia and bigoted erasure. She has repeatedly supported TERFs and gone to bat for them with her platform, and has habitually retweeted their quotes and trans-exclusionary literature.
This isn't some misunderstanding at this point. As the saying goes, when someone tells you who they are, believe them.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
That's a good question, actually. What had Rowling to do with FFVII?
I'm sure we can work something out, six degrees and all that.
Last edited:
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Well, Snape kills Dumbledore. Dumbledore is ancient and Aerith is the last Ancient so... Sephiroth is Snape?
Ehh, not sure it's working...
Ehh, not sure it's working...
Eerie
Fire and Blood
No I didn't read it, first because I care little about her, and also because a few of her other tweets already persuaded me that she was transphobic, sadly, so I didn't need anymore long rant about it. I mean, I already said I believed she was transphobic, so it's mostly on her and not a misunderstanding. The first one that started everything, was probably more about that feeling of erasure - I mean, I feel offended too by that headline, mainly because I do find it degrading - but with her being attacked, she probably wents nuts about the issue, as I can guess.
As I said, she probably needs therapy at this point, but I doubt she's going to understand this.
The rest of my text was mostly an opinion about what I could read about women who turn on mtf trans, but it's mainly my interpretation. But it's all there, the feeling that women can't have safe spaces anymore, that they feel that people care more about trans rights than women rights, etc. Those spaces are full of trans haters, the worst is probably the sports fields, reading non-biased articles about this was hard to find and the comments were swarmed by transphobic people, would not recommend (
) But anyway, as I said there's a lot of that mixed in. Thankfully, I think most women are accepting towards mtf trans? Or at least I hope so.Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
My fault, I think. I brought her up as an example of people whose works were broadly good at representation relative to other people. There's been a lot of JKR controversies, but if you look closer there tends to be more to them than the headline.
So, um, where were we?
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
@looneymoon large aside defending Shakespeare:
Not to throw a wrench in the discussion, but Shakespeare in no way canonized or even popularlized the miserly Jew stereotype — in fact, the opposite. The “Have not a Jew eyes” speech was a huge subversion of the trope. Another play about a miserly Jew was released by Marlowe around 5 years earlier: The Jew of Malta. People were clamouring for another play about a miserly Jew, and unlike Nomura, Shakespeare delivered what the people wanted. But the dude was a humanist, and even with his cultural brainwashing he still managed to write one of the most famous pleas for compassion — from the Jewish character: “if you prick us, do we not bleed?”
I realize that this is almost like praising Song of the South for not using blackface, but there you have it. I’ve played Shylock and feel he’s one of the more naturally-motivated villains I’ve stepped into. Having Jewish heritage I’m obviously biased.
I realize that this is almost like praising Song of the South for not using blackface, but there you have it. I’ve played Shylock and feel he’s one of the more naturally-motivated villains I’ve stepped into. Having Jewish heritage I’m obviously biased.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
@Mr. Ite
My intention was more to highlight what the trope is, and how it's still alive and well in contemporary media. I did my years[reading] Shakespeare, so I'm aware of the complicated history of Shylock 
He's was the most recognizable literary figure to point to when discussing the trope, given Shakespeare's longevity and continued cultural significance. There may have been poor wording/choice on my part, but I think the point still stands.
My intention was more to highlight what the trope is, and how it's still alive and well in contemporary media. I did my years
He's was the most recognizable literary figure to point to when discussing the trope, given Shakespeare's longevity and continued cultural significance. There may have been poor wording/choice on my part, but I think the point still stands.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
But that only means that goblin characteristics were transposed onto Jewish people; not that goblins were invented based on Jewish people and featuring Jewish characteristics? Hoarding and villainy and haggard features are characteristics of goblins, not Jews.
With the best will in the world, I can't see how one sees those creatures and jumps to Jewish people any more than I would get it if someone watched "Zootopia" and concluded that the foxes were coded as Black Americans because the only ones we see are depicted as crooks. =\
Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
@Makoeyes987 I've already explained it, but you seem to have missed my post. Not going to quote myself, but with each passing post of yours you've been cementing my previous statememts of Americans being too self-centered to care about anything else, no matter if they come in the "America, fuck yeah!" flavour, or the borderline fanatically puritanical politically correct ones.
You keep wondering how come some people can't see the negative stereotypes and I keep telling you that those stereotypes exist in YOUR part of the world. Money-grubbing? We have plenty of them here in Spain. Hooked nose? That too, thanks to our Middle East and Arab DNA! One of my grandmas had those two characteristics and she was no Jew.
Do you want to know what we see in our minds when we think of Jews? People branded with numbers and loaded in trucks like cattle, dumped in concentration camps, beaten, raped, killed in gas chambers and dumped in mass graves, all because a failed Liberal Arts student had a temper tantrum over the world not being the pristine, pure place he had envisioned. And the, when they thought their troubles were over, they arrive to the blessed USA and find exactly the same vitriol they left in Germany, sans the concentration camps.
We had a large community of jewish citizens back in the day, the Sephardi, who were money lenders to the war effort of the Catholic Monarch's, who, in turn, stripped them from their nationality and exiled them so they didn't have to repay the debt with the interests. Dick move that we, as a nation, understood many centuries after and sought to repair. Even after the diaspora, many families still keep the keys to their ancestral homes as a family heirloom, even knowing that the house is long gone, and still keep teaching Spanish to their kids (in the ancient form from the Reconquista). In 1982 we passed a bill on which all those who could prove their vinculation with Spain could see their citizenship restored. In 2015 this process was simplified, and many descendants of those unjustly exiled have come back to their motherland.
We keep their culture alive, or as much as we can, because they are part of our history. We keep archives with their writen works, we have erected statues to Sephardi eminent figures, the Jewish Quarters are part of our cities and also part of our monuments, their gastronomy is part of our culture, their music is still celebrated. They are remembered as what they were and honored as what they are now: Fellow citizens worthy of respect.
Of course, you have the idiots who shave their heads and wear the Solar Wheel as if they were heirs of the german tiny man, without knowing that they have as much african blood (and probably also jewish) as the rest of us, who like to vandalize anything that has to do with Jews. Then you have the "politically correct" communist parties whose members make jokes about how to fit 4 milions jews in a car, with no consequence from the other "oh so sensitive to cultural nuances" members.
You keep wondering how come some people can't see the negative stereotypes and I keep telling you that those stereotypes exist in YOUR part of the world. Money-grubbing? We have plenty of them here in Spain. Hooked nose? That too, thanks to our Middle East and Arab DNA! One of my grandmas had those two characteristics and she was no Jew.
Do you want to know what we see in our minds when we think of Jews? People branded with numbers and loaded in trucks like cattle, dumped in concentration camps, beaten, raped, killed in gas chambers and dumped in mass graves, all because a failed Liberal Arts student had a temper tantrum over the world not being the pristine, pure place he had envisioned. And the, when they thought their troubles were over, they arrive to the blessed USA and find exactly the same vitriol they left in Germany, sans the concentration camps.
We had a large community of jewish citizens back in the day, the Sephardi, who were money lenders to the war effort of the Catholic Monarch's, who, in turn, stripped them from their nationality and exiled them so they didn't have to repay the debt with the interests. Dick move that we, as a nation, understood many centuries after and sought to repair. Even after the diaspora, many families still keep the keys to their ancestral homes as a family heirloom, even knowing that the house is long gone, and still keep teaching Spanish to their kids (in the ancient form from the Reconquista). In 1982 we passed a bill on which all those who could prove their vinculation with Spain could see their citizenship restored. In 2015 this process was simplified, and many descendants of those unjustly exiled have come back to their motherland.
We keep their culture alive, or as much as we can, because they are part of our history. We keep archives with their writen works, we have erected statues to Sephardi eminent figures, the Jewish Quarters are part of our cities and also part of our monuments, their gastronomy is part of our culture, their music is still celebrated. They are remembered as what they were and honored as what they are now: Fellow citizens worthy of respect.
Of course, you have the idiots who shave their heads and wear the Solar Wheel as if they were heirs of the german tiny man, without knowing that they have as much african blood (and probably also jewish) as the rest of us, who like to vandalize anything that has to do with Jews. Then you have the "politically correct" communist parties whose members make jokes about how to fit 4 milions jews in a car, with no consequence from the other "oh so sensitive to cultural nuances" members.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
@Glaurung that's the kind of post I like to read in the morning!
And because this is a FF forum:
Vivi is the cutest thing.
One more:
And because this is a FF forum:
Vivi is the cutest thing.
One more:
An informative tidbit about this for the rest of the users: in Spain they're called "Barrio judío" o "Judería", and often they're preserved as historical sites. Even in the North, there's lots of them in cities and even mountain villages. I can't recommend Hervás enough.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Considering J.K. Rowling is a British author who has run into these criticisms, including the goblin one, from people in Europe as well, no, this has nothing to do with an American perspective. I have no idea how you're even conflating the issue with a mere difference in global perspective. People around the world, particularly Jewish people, have criticized this, along with a plethora of other issues Rowling has done in recent years. Attempting to dismiss that as something only American born, is a gross stereotyping and minimization of the reality.
That's all great and a wonderful thing. However, you're transposing your own anecdotal perspective and experience to the one I'm referring to here. That has absolutely nothing to do with what Rowling writes, says, utilizes as inspiration, or anything else. The myriad of criticisms that have been raised over her work, especially in light of her own outward bigotry, hold a far stronger salience. It becomes pretty difficult to assume good faith and just probable coincidence when not only is Rowling utilizing antisemitic tropes in her writing, but she exemplifies bigotry in repeating TERF talking points in some bizarre song-and-dance to justify calling transgender people merely men with a mental disorder who are misogynistic and have some desire to predate. To somehow speak of it as if it's some US born perspective or problem not expressed by the numerous individuals around the world who have viewed her work ignores the reality of who's talking about it.
That's true, but again. As demonstrated and explained, it's a historic, societal trope that has existed for centuries and has been coded, however unfairly, to mean/represent a group of people. It's the concurrence of these numerous issues, the person utilizing them, and they're more than apparent reflection that raises the spectre and criticism.
Also, considering Zootopia is a cartoon about unfair policing with Judy Hops overturning an inequitable system that targets a group of animals prejudicially, if you were to think of foxes like that for a less prejudicial reason, you wouldn't be that off base.
Zootopia has been praised and sometimes criticized for it being an apparent social critique of how police hold unfair bias towards groups of people as "predators" so seeing people in that story isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't remember the foxes doing nothing but crimes in that movie but it's been awhile since I've seen it.
Last edited:
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I'm not sure that example really... resounds because it seems as though you're saying that contemporary American race relations between POC and police has no place when looking at the narrative of Zootopia? I don't think that's what you're saying, but I find this correlation really questionable. I also don't see Zootopia using major design qualifiers of minstrel cartoons for their characters.
I think I've provided enough context in previous posts to explain why the antisemitic impression exists with the HP Goblins. I can't force anyone to see something that's imo, incredibly clear. It's not something that's just made up out of nowhere. There's centuries long academic history as to how this is a thing, and I can only point in that direction. The "I don't see race" argument (I don't see it because I'm not racist; maybe this is a you problem and you're racist) doesn't sit well with me, because part of racism is that it is often unconscious/passive. I often see that same kind of rhetoric from people who are dismissive of blackface (or any other historically demeaning caricature) as "reading too much into it" and not being a big deal. I am not sure if stripping these images of their contextual history is a good thing, but maybe I'm mistaken in being wary of that.
This specific example has been a discussion since at least 2003, which is when I was hard into the Potter fandom and first heard about it. This isn't exactly an outrage made up by twitter/tumblr cancel culture. European and North American fans alike have been talking about the Gringotts goblin antisemitism for almost 20 years. It doesn't come up often because it's such a small part of HP, and hardly a focus of the story. To frame the conversation solely as American internet SJWs is a huge mis-characterization of a discussion that has roots in Europe way before there was even an idea about colonizing the Americas.
I don't wanna go out of my way to find JSTOR articles because that's pretentious and needlessly time consuming, but it wasn't difficult to find an academically focused reddit thread discussing this very thing.
I just want to add: for all the shit JKR gets, her response to antisemitism criticisms has probably been the most genuine and gracious way she's responded to basically anything. I'm at this point where I'm so hyper aware of anything this woman does or has ever done, and not by choice. Friends have been messaging me all week about the latest ways she continues to disappoint. I know its just friendly roasts because I've been a big defender of hers in the past, but the whole topic has become exhausting. I mean that in a way that goes far beyond the pastiche of Griphook.
To end it off with some less serious business engagement with this topic, here's a stupid Funny Or Die sketch made by Mr. George Costanza himself:
with that, I'm peacing out from this.
Last edited:
