Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this

[Obsidian Fire]

One of the best examples I can think of for subverting the "fauxEuropean medieval land" setting is the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. The culture, politics and military are all heavily Roman in nature, but they've got nature spirits everywhere that everyone interacts with that feels like it's something a medival fantasy novel would have.

The entire series was written by Butcher to prove it was possible to write a good (or at least decent) book based on two not-so-great ideas. The ideas in question being the "Lost Roman Legion" trope and pokemon.

 

[Tetsujin]

That would be rad name for a Doom metal band.

Well, it exists

 

[looneymoon]

re JK Rowling: The "Dumbledore is actually gay" move was probably the inciting incident. Ever since, she's fallen down the hole of "embarrassing drunk twitter mom" whose level of input-ho has reached max status.

My personal favourite post-canon tidbit is this detail on Wizard shit. Seriously, she puts any of the dumbest Square-Enix post additions to shame.

Also, lately she's been really showing her ass with her views on trans people. I say lately because there was a recent slough of tweets, but she's been spewing some ignorant shit for years at this point. I used to give her more benefit of the doubt, but she just won't shut up about it and continues to go on super unnecessary twitter sprees :/

 

[Odysseus]

I wish the creators of these big influential works would learn to just keep their mouths shut on certain issues. I have a hard time going back to HP now because of JK's transphobia. I know "seperate the art from the artist" and all, but it isn't always so easy.

 

[looneymoon]

I have a Harry Potter tattoo and a buttload of trans women in my social circle, I can never live this down -______-

 

[Eerie]

To be honest, what started it all was an article title that described women as "people who bleed". I know that it's good to be inclusive and al, but seriously, I find this so degrading I will never accept it. And I'm pretty accepting of trans otherwise (I do think Rowling is transphobic though, which is a lot of "eww"). If what she said about being abused is true, attacking her violently on twitter won't help though - she needs professional help, not threatening violence. (But seriously she needs a therapist).

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have a Harry Potter tattoo and a buttload of trans women in my social circle, I can never live this down -______-

...Oh shit...

 

[Glaurung]

I'm not particularly interested in Harry Potter, but I gather JK Rowling's ex-fans hate her for many reasons, among them being the goblin bankers, because they're racist, because they're intended to be...???? Jewish people I think? I'm not sure. I always thought she was having a dig at Swiss people there: "the gnomes of Zurich" as the Swiss bankers are called.

Considering them a jewish spoof would be racist on itself, I dare to say, maybe? Here in Spain when Gringotts appeared we just saw our local bank, no ethnicity or religion attached; or that stingy old man we all have in our hood. There's always one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Gringots goblins are the most egregious stereotyped monsters I've seen in any modern fantasy to date. I remember those things being an issue back in the early 2000s when they first appeared. Especially when the movies premiered because it's so glaringly obvious to those who see them. I have no idea what the fuck Rowling was thinking when she designed them.

Well, I actually do. But, to think she would even try something so blatantly antisemetic is just gobsmacking.

Hook nosed goblins who are hunched over, greedily hoarding money, and are obsessed with lending it for profit and shit, speaks for itself.

Nevermind that the goblins metaphorically stab Harry, Ron and Hermoine in the back, and report their escapades to Lord Voldemort.

The racist stereotype is literally spanking you on the butt demanding your attention.

 

[Pizzachu]

No, not here, sorry for conveying that people here made demands. But you have to admit that, each time a new non-american piece of media comes out there's always that hubbub from the USA part of the internet because it never fulfills the representation quota, or it never "represents [insert ethnicity or sexual orientation] correctly". It has never happened in this forum because things have been kept civil and reasonable, so we can have civilized discussions and learn from each other, but you have to admit that the rest of the internet is so deafening sometimes in the matter of race that, each time the discussion is brought up, even if making such a simple thing as wishing for whatever, we non-americans feel like groaning and pulling up the "no one fucking asked, bitch" meme. Sorry 'bout that.

My point with saying that japanes devs treat the Far West as an exotic aesthetic is that no one really cares about USA's domestic problems. Well, except for those nincompoops who have adopted the "white guilt" mantra in places where such thing has no point whatsoever because... they are not "white" to beguin with, but people have always needed some sort of voulntary martyrdoom, I guess. Let's remember that they were sects of people who wilingly removed their genitalia and lived a life of suffering, just to atone for sins they never commited. But I digress. Whatever happens in the USA, the rest of the world watches and shrugs, except for those who want internet clout, or those who make deals with USA clients and are worried about international big comerce. We don't care. We look at your country and we only see americans, no matter the skin color. Sadly, as a society, too self-centered and ignorant about what happens outside your borders and, still, wondering why media from outside looks so alien to you.





Christian-inspired temples have been the bread and butter of JRPGs since forever. And it's not a statement, but people nowadays are reading far too deep into things!

I understand where you're coming from. USA topics are pretty much everywhere, and I can imagine that it can be annoying to see them constantly if you're not from the United States. And, yes, the United States and its citizens, including myself, could most definitely learn from other parts of the world (especially a certain someone in office...)

The United States, from my experience, kind of exists in its own bubble of news and pop culture. Certain things do make it over here (like K-pop, JRPGs, Harry Potter, etc.), but for the most part, media is mostly made for and consumed (if that's the right word) by a United States audience. While imports do exist, I've noticed that we still seem to be mostly by ourselves. This is why issues of representation and other things that U.S. citizens bring up are so frequent. Other countries may not necessarily understand all of the details, but certain issues are still be dealt with in the United States that other U.S. citizens like the discuss. We're still working out all of the racism issues, sadly. That is why, from what I've seen, there is a push for more representation in media from some U.S. citizens, no matter where the media is from. Once racism and discrimination is finally gone (and who knows when that will happen ), then I'm assuming that these types of discussions will go away.

But, yes, this seems to be a U.S. issue, and I don't blame people who are not American to be annoyed by it.

As for the statement part, I'm seeing this more as an artist type of thing. It's a what you are making and why you are making it type of deal, the reasoning behind making certain choices in art. It was already brought up that churches are considered exotic and are good areas for boss fights. From what I've learned in a class about game design, that is the statement. We can go into things like why specifically the devs chose a church and not a mosque or a synagogue, but I feel like that would be going way too deep into the details of things.

Of course, but it seems you're much more likely to hear about 'look at the gaffe this author made' than 'look how good this author is at representing minorities.

I agree. In video game terms, I think a lot of indie developers are making headway into creating more diverse characters. I mostly look at visual novels, but I'm sure there are other game genres with diverse characters too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, it never occurred to me that they could be read as Jewish until people started complaining about it on tumblr. Maybe that's because I know a lot of Jewish people irl?

Are people saying that JKR deliberately set out to make the Gringotts bankers caricatures of Jews? Or that once they were written, she should have realised they were caricatures? Who is more racist, the one who sees the stereotype or the one who doesn't? Sometimes the evil is in the eye of the beholder.

I have no brief for JKR herself. I had to read all those books aloud to my kids and once was more than enough.

 

[Eerie]

I don't know, it never occurred to me either, I thought they were just Goblins like in D&D? I also have one Jewish friend (one who knows HP, not the other who doesn't lol) who never ever complained about it, and you can bet it he would have, if he had felt that they were supposed to represent Jews.

I mean, both are pretty close in how I depicted them in my head, except HP's ones were less savage lol. Bad things were also expected from them because of their very nature?

IDK and I may be completely wrong and maybe JKR is also a total anti-semitic POS. But at least that's not how I read them at all, probably because I had prior knowledge about gobs.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah, I'm puzzled as to what kind of person would read HP and say to themselves, "You know who those goblins remind me of? They remind me of Jews."

Like you, I just thought they were goblins.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Well, it exists

Well fuck me sideways! and call me George! I'm looking for them right now.
EDIT: OOOOOOO THEY GOOD I LIKE

But at least that's not how I read them at all, probably because I had prior knowledge about gobs.

Rowling had it too, she used lots of stablished creatures, and goblins and gold and treasures are a well-stablished centuries old idea.
I don't know how you can see Gringotts and think of jews, yet here we are.
I don't get it either

Yeah, I'm puzzled as to what kind of person would read HP and say to themselves, "You know who those goblins remind me of? They remind me of Jews."

I know which kind but I'm not telling.

 

[Clement Rage]

Look closer at those stories.

She was asked a direct question about whether Dumbledore had ever been in love and answered it. Let's say she had a headcanon about Dumbledore and Grindelwald that never made it into the books. What's she supposed to do, lie?

The Wizard shit thing was an aside in an essay about how the chamber of secrets could end up in a girl's bathroom when the castle predates modern plumbing. It's relevant.

She also got in trouble for supporting an actress in a stage play when Hermione was cast as black by saying it was fine. Anything else would have left that poor girl at the mercy of the angry social media mobs.

The goblins being... Jews? is completely new to me. I'm not sure why anyone would think that.

Given this history, I'm not sure if the reaction to a tweet is warranted.

But let's get back to her work. Along with Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson/Ian Cameron Esslemont,her works are among the most egalitarian I've come across in the field.

Things like a mixed gender quidditch team, or Tonks being an Auror without anyone in universe knowing or caring, put her well ahead of many similar writers of her time. Kingsley Shacklebolt, super Auror, becomes Minister for Magic and it's not an issue. The Cormoran Strike novels go into a lot of detail and handle things like sexual violence with what I regard as a fair amount of nuance (I may be wrong, of course).

I really do think she's trying, mistakes or not. And when a mis-step provokes this kind of reaction, all that happens is that you dis-incentivise authors from attempting broader representation, because all they get is an angry mob telling them all the things they got wrong. When that happens, people are going to stick to the tropes that are 'safe', and you ultimately end up slowing down broader representation in media.

One of the best examples I can think of for subverting the "fauxEuropean medieval land" setting is the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. The culture, politics and military are all heavily Roman in nature, but they've got nature spirits everywhere that everyone interacts with that feels like it's something a medival fantasy novel would have.

Is that subversion, or just doing something else?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, it never occurred to me that they could be read as Jewish until people started complaining about it on tumblr. Maybe that's because I know a lot of Jewish people irl?

Are people saying that JKR deliberately set out to make the Gringotts bankers caricatures of Jews? Or that once they were written, she should have realised they were caricatures? Who is more racist, the one who sees the stereotype or the one who doesn't? Sometimes the evil is in the eye of the beholder.

I have no idea whether she did it deliberately or not, but the fact remains she made a racist Jewish caricature that was so offensive, Jar Jar Binks wiped his brow in relief as he danced to music only he could hear.

There's no "eye of the beholder here." I don't know how one could conceivably and rationally argue that a race of hook-nosed, back-stabbing bankers obsessed with money, gems, and profit, that also helps the villain at the expense of the heroes, could be anything but the worst ethnic caricature of Jewish people you could make. It doesn't matter if Rowling did it intentionally or not. It simply happened.

I really do think she's trying, mistakes or not. And when a mis-step provokes this kind of reaction, all that happens is that you dis-incentivise authors from attempting broader representation, because all they get is an angry mob telling them all the things they got wrong. When that happens, people are going to stick to the tropes that are 'safe', and you ultimately end up slowing down broader representation in media.

There's making mistakes, and then there's taking a shit, laying in it. And then vehemently arguing with everyone around you that you're not covered in shit, because when it comes to shit, you know it, and it's definitely not what you're covered in.

I don't care how much she tried, she's certainly not trying now. She's in fact, doing the opposite, of trying. There's no "mob," either. There are simply people who care about trans people, trying to tell her to stop saying they aren't women and are really just men in dresses trying to hang out in bathrooms to rape people. That's not really trying at all.

Rowling trying to somehow classify women as specifically "people who menstruate/bleed" is the stupidest and most bizarre fucking thing I've heard in gender discourse, in a long long time. This is not a one-time thing. She's been spouting off TERF-isms for years now, and has written a bizarre screed essay about it. This isn't a mistake, this is who she is.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They could just be goblins.

 

[Eerie]

Dude. They are goblins. What do you expect from goblins? They want treasures, they have crooked noses, they are backstabbing little shits. When I first read HP and read that goblins were in charge of the bank I was like "GOBLINS? YOU'RE LETTING GOBLINS IN CHARGE OF MONEY?" and oh boy I was not deceived at all.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm kind of surprised that the Jewish caricature thing is something that is difficult to pick up on.

I don't think JK is intentionally anti-Semitic per se, but the Gringotts goblins are pretty blatant spins of historically racist caricatures of the mizerly Jew.

And as Mako said... they're depicted as money-hoarding bankers with hooked nose. The only way it could be even more blatant is if one was named Shylock.

Admittedly, this isn't something I would pick up on as a child, but I also didn't really get why stuff like this or this was a problem until being confronted with the history of their longstanding racism.

Being unaware of historically racist iconography doesn't make it suddenly not racist. I don't think Rowling did this intentionally, but she is definitely drawing from centuries-long old tropes that were born from a specific place.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Rowling trying to somehow classify women as specifically "people who menstruate/bleed" is the stupidest and most bizarre fucking thing I've heard in gender discourse, in a long long time.

Rowling didn't do that, tho.

 

[Eerie]

Rowling trying to somehow classify women as specifically "people who menstruate/bleed" is the stupidest and most bizarre fucking thing I've heard in gender discourse, in a long long time.

Dude, she got mad an article called women "people who bleed", IDK what's hard to understand in the prior statement I've made about this. And honestly, as I've said, this kind of depiction of women is super degrading.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Looneymoon, is JKR drawing on it, or are you seeing it?
I'm a history teacher, I teach Nazi Germany every year, and I didn't see it. I took them at face value, as goblins. I didn't think to myself, "Wow, those sure seem a lot like Jews."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Rowling didn't do that, tho.

She shared the stance that women are specifically, "people who menstruate." That was the the point of her saying there was a term for those that she sarcastically, couldn't remember.

Nevermind how that completely invalidates and erases women who are post-menopausal, it's an intentional erasure of women who were not assigned as women at birth. No, not all women menstruate.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Nevermind how that completely invalidates and erases women who are post-menopausal, it's an intentional erasure of women who were not assigned as women at birth. No, not all women menstruate.

Oh, a guy is mansplaining me what a woman is and isn't and menstruation! YAY PROGRESS!!
Edit: typos are the bane of my existence

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh, a guy is mansplaing me what a woman is and isn't and menstruation! YAY PROGRESS!!

...I don't think you know what the word mansplaining means, lol