Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this

[Glaurung]

I give up, @Makoeyes987 . Tried to explain, very carefully, as if I was talking to my seven yo niece, why, while you and every person with an anglo-saxon or nordic or centro-european cultural ancestry might see one thing, others with a differect cultural background might very well not see it AT ALL. Because it's not ingrained in our cluture, we are sometimes flabbergasted when we take a peek at how you americans, british and north european look at things because it's a different prespective, while we sometimes scratch our heads about all of you being oblivious at some implications that are crystal clear to us, yet we try to understand it, but hey, that's what learning about other cultures is about, right?

But sure, dude, keep being dismissive about other people's POV and historical background, that sure is very culturally nuanced and inclussive.






Oh, and I wasn't going to talk about this woman, but fans brought it upon themselves. All of it.

HP is a work for kids and teens. You read it, you learn the story and lessons it tries teaching you, you get amused, you close the book and that's it. But we have all a whole generation of kids who have refused to grown up in many instances, and have refused to move the fuck on into their adult life. You migh have a job, you might live on your own, you might fuck your SO every fucking night... and you can still be mentally immature and unwilling, or uncapable, or letting go of your teen years.

Fans kept accosting this woman over the years for more and more information about her work, demanding more and more content because moving on meant they had to be adult and boring and wrinkly and sagging like their old folks. They got her so much degree of clout it finally got to her head and, coupled with the damned social media, the innevitable happened: She thought she could say whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, about whatever crossed her mind, and she happened to say things that got them offended/irked/enraged.

Writers, actors, singers... they are good at what they are, and maybe at some other thing if they have the skills, but I still shake my head at how much their opinion is sought on matters they might not know shit.

You fed the beast, now you deal with it.

Have fun festering on your own wrath, buddies. I've got more productive things to do.





No hard feelings, btw. I feel for all of you.

 

[Cat on Mars]

First FFVII, then Harry Potter... I fully expect this thread to talk about the Teletubbies being problematic next.

 

[Master Bates]

For what it's worth, it's thanks to this thread that I got to know this interesting ningen called J.K. Rowling. Literally all I know about her (sans the fact that she's the author of the Harry Potter books) now comes from this thread. I still won't read nor watch Harry Potter, though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

.... So J.K. Rowling's not British now?

Because how would her not having an "Anglosphere" perspective regarding her writing make sense, when she was born, raised, and currently resides in Great Britain?

Harry Potter takes place in modern England. Hogwarts is in Scotland. So I have no idea how your shifted point (since it's now apparently "anglosphere" now that I've demonstrated this criticism is not unique to America) is even applicable to this. That has zero to do with a speculative non-anglosphere perspective, given she's... Clearly Anglo-Saxon. Interpreting her perspective with the one that matches her self-declared cultural lense, makes perfect sense. And trying to dismiss it as some sort of bizarre paranoid reading-between-the-lines of context that doesn't exist is willfully ignorant of what people clearly are seeing with their own two eyes.

If you don't see it, that's on you. Good for you, but that doesn't mean it simply doesn't exist.

 

[Odysseus]

First FFVII, then Harry Potter... I fully expect this thread to talk about the Teletubbies being problematic next.

I, for one, support throwing babies into the sun.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It's you who claimed it was a "global" perspective not me, Mr "I think you don't know what mainsplaining means lol".
Also, have you had viagra for breakfast? Because your hateboner for JKR has lasted for a whole day at minimum.

I, for one, support throwing babies into the sun.

That baby was up to no good anyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, when I said "global" I meant, "not exclusive to the US," you can find criticism of her far beyond just America. Especially in the part of Europe Rowling hails from. So to paint her criticisms as some sort of uniquely American phenomenon is false. That's what I and others have been responding to for the past two pages.

And I never said I liked her, so I don't see what's even relevant about that? She's said and done some fucked up shit. Of course she's not gonna be liked.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's all great and a wonderful thing. However, you're transposing your own anecdotal perspective and experience to the one I'm referring to here.

Aren't all of us? Not to make this into "Can art be objectively good/bad? Vol. II," but you should be able to tell from some of the posts in here that this Jews-as-goblins reading isn't objectively legible.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what Rowling writes, says, utilizes as inspiration, or anything else. The myriad of criticisms that have been raised over her work, especially in light of her own outward bigotry, hold a far stronger salience.

That isn't a valid point in the slightest. Persistently having a (perhaps even willful) blind spot on one social issue isn't reasonable grounds for assuming outright malice on others.

For that matter, the woman has verifiably taken respectable positions on other socio-political topics, so the hunch falls short right there of being anything more than a hunch.

Also, considering Zootopia is a cartoon about unfair policing with Judy Hops overturning an inequitable system that targets a group of animals prejudicially, if you were to think of foxes like that for a less prejudicial reason, you wouldn't be that off base.

Zootopia has been praised and sometimes criticized for it being an apparent social critique of how police hold unfair bias towards groups of people as "predators" so seeing people in that story isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't remember the foxes doing nothing but crimes in that movie but it's been awhile since I've seen it.

Somewhat off-topic, but ironically enough, all of the other animal species in that setting -- including other predators -- seem to distrust and dislike foxes. Even if they generally don't have prejudice against predators writ large. Hell, most of the police we see in the movie even come from other predator species. XD

I'm not sure that example really... resounds because it seems as though you're saying that contemporary American race relations between POC and police has no place when looking at the narrative of Zootopia?

Well, no. I could have picked literally anything where one group of anthropomorphic characters is consistently depicted a negative way to make the same point, but my kid was watching "Zootopia" earlier in the evening, so ...

But you are absolutely right about the irony of picking the example where the police don't have the best relationship with a minority group. x_x

I think I've provided enough context in previous posts to explain why the antisemitic impression exists with the HP Goblins. I can't force anyone to see something that's imo, incredibly clear. It's not something that's just made up out of nowhere. There's centuries long academic history as to how this is a thing, and I can only point in that direction. The "I don't see race" argument (I don't see it because I'm not racist; maybe this is a you problem and you're racist) doesn't sit well with me, because part of racism is that it is often unconscious/passive. I often see that same kind of rhetoric from people who are dismissive of blackface (or any other historically demeaning caricature) as "reading too much into it" and not being a big deal. I am not sure if stripping these images of their contextual history is a good thing, but maybe I'm mistaken in being wary of that.

This specific example has been a discussion since at least 2003, which is when I was hard into the Potter fandom and first heard about it. This isn't exactly an outrage made up by twitter/tumblr cancel culture. European and North American fans alike have been talking about the Gringotts goblin antisemitism for almost 20 years. It doesn't come up often because it's such a small part of HP, and hardly a focus of the story. To frame the conversation solely as American internet SJWs is a huge mis-characterization of a discussion that has roots in Europe way before there was even an idea about colonizing the Americas.

I don't wanna go out of my way to find JSTOR because that's pretentious and needlessly time consuming, but it wasn't difficult to find an academically focused reddit thread discussing this very thing.

I just want to add: for all the shit JKR gets, her response to antisemitism criticisms has probably been the most genuine and gracious way she's responded to basically anything. I'm at this point where I'm so hyper aware of anything this woman does or has ever done, and not by choice. Friends have been messaging me all week about the latest ways she continues to disappoint. I know its just friendly roasts because I've been a big defender of hers in the past, but the whole topic has become exhausting. I mean that in a way that goes far beyond the pastiche of Griphook.

To end it off with some less serious business engagement with this topic, here's a stupid Funny Or Die sketch made by Mr. George Costanza himself:

with that, I'm peacing out from this.

If you want to stick to peacing out, that's cool, but I didn't want to leave your observations unacknowledged either, especially with a misunderstanding or two in the mix.

Namely, I definitely see race. Definitely, definitely, definitely. What I don't see, I guess, is how a child's mind makes the jump from these dastardly creatures in HP to their own Jewish neighbors.

Like, okay, yeah: the historical villainization of Jewish people has included caricatures that looked like that -- but you have to already know that you're supposed to be looking at a distorted Jewish caricature to "appreciate" (couldn't think of a better word) the depiction as such. This isn't like one of those cartoons from the YouTube video that just straight-up used a Hasidic Jew that might be recognizable as a Hasidic Jew.

The HP goblins are so far removed in every way from Jewish people that it's literally impossible for someone who doesn't already have this association to be brainwashed into making that association. At least no sooner than they would with any other ethnic group, I imagine?

And that's why I now also have to ask, if someone thinks this was done deliberately, what would even be the point? Who is going to come away from HP thinking bad things about Jews when they didn't before? What gratification comes of this for the author but a private chortle they may inspire in twelve other people who get what they were shooting for and also approve?

Maybe I just don't get racism, but to me that sounds both really dumb and bizarre. =\

Sorry, by the way, to add to the stress of your week.

 

[Cat on Mars]

to paint her criticisms as some sort of uniquely American phenomenon is false.

Glaurung didn't say that. She said you consider your perspective the only one that matters and disregard others.
She was right.
And I'll add:
You disregard ANY perspective that you can't use to further you agenda, whatever it may be.
Because this isn't about inclusion, or social justice, or tolerance, isn't it?

Revel in your hatred if you wish. But don't think you're looking good with this.
Now I'll follow @Glaurung's example, peace out and let you stew in your your own juice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Glaurung didn't say that. She said you consider your perspective the only one that matters and disregard others.
She was right.
And I'll add:
You disregard ANY perspective that you can't use to further you agenda, whatever it may be.
Because this isn't about inclusion, or social justice, or tolerance, isn't it?

Revel in your hatred if you wish. But don't think you're looking good with this.
Now I'll follow @Glaurung's example, peace out and let you stew in your your own juice.

...Considering I literally said "If you don't see it, that's on you. Good for you, but that doesn't mean it simply doesn't exist," I think you're once again exhibiting you're utter lack of ability to comprehend another poster's text, especially if framing it as an "agenda." That's a hilariously paranoid framing there, but you do you.

Aren't all of us? Not to make this into "Can art be objectively good/bad? Vol. II," but you should be able to tell from some of the posts in here that this Jews-as-goblins reading isn't objectively legible.

Well, to quote myself, that's why I say, "if you can't see it, that's fine." I can see why it wouldn't be apparent if you don't come from that awareness of it's existence. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's nonexistent, writ large. There are lots of things that due to cultural/demographic perspective, seem utterly nonexistent, but all it takes is a reframing and understanding of it's historical/social context to see it's existence.

That isn't a valid point in the slightest. Persistently having a (perhaps even willful) blind spot on one social issue isn't reasonable grounds for assuming outright malice on others.

For that matter, the woman has verifiably taken respectable positions on other socio-political topics, so the hunch falls short right there of being anything more than a hunch.

How is it not valid? Maybe it's not charitable, or kind, but I simply don't find her perspective and attitude now to be indicative of the same good will or good faith she exhibited before. I think it's very natural to mistrust whatever intentions or words she has, now that she's demonstrated holding some bizarre and fucked up thoughts towards people she clearly doesn't know or understand. It goes beyond a simple blind spot because people have attempted to educate her or explain it to her years ago, when it was believed to be a simple misunderstanding of the nuance between sex and gender. She's simply has having none of it. So regardless of if it's malice or just stubborn boomer ignorance, whatever it is, there's something off in the worst way.

The HP goblins are so far removed in every way from Jewish people that it's literally impossible for someone who doesn't already have this association to be brainwashed into making that association. At least no sooner than they would with any other ethnic group, I imagine?

And that's why I now also have to ask, if someone thinks this was done deliberately, what would even be the point? Who is going to come away from HP thinking bad things about Jews when they didn't before? What gratification comes of this for the author but a private chortle they may inspire in twelve other people who get what they were shooting for and also approve?

Let me be clear in saying I personally don't think Rowling has any sort of tangible "point" or "agenda" in utilizing this trope or stereotypical portrayal. I don't think it was some secret Jew-hating attempt to get it into popular media. I think it's more than likely something that existed as an ugly cultural relic which ended up being include in her story setting that she never thought twice about in writing or editing.

Like blackface jokes from cartoons circa the 1940s and 50s, these type of images weren't necessarily products of outright malice or hate. They were products of ignorance. Disrespectful portrayals born from the cultural/societal ethos that existed back then, which accepted that type of humor and depiction for entertainment. Those type of racist caricatures aren't necessarily about spawning a direct, prejudicial and hateful reaction, they're merely a regurgitation of the same tropes and cultural norms that were present at the time. It's nothing with a direct tangible intent like say, Daily Stormer racist propaganda or memes. It's just a product of potential ignorance.

 

[Clement Rage]

Question: When are the HP goblins actually greedy or miserly?

Gringotts is so damn reliable that wizardkind stores all their most valuable stuff there, up to and including the Philosopher's Stone which allows you to create the Elixir of Life. You can put a piece of your soul in their vault and it'll be right there waiting for you when you come back (well, it wasn't, but not for lack of Gringotts' trying.)

Nobody ever charges Harry an overly high interest rate or tries to coax him into a Pyramid scheme.

There's a dispute with Ludo Bagman because he owes them money... but...that's just debt collection of monies owed, he even gets multiple chances to pay them back.

Griphook backstabs Harry because he has figured out that they were planning to backstab him and therefore took the payment he was going to be cheated on and ran. Fair enough.

There is a cultural dispute because Goblin manufactured artefacts are regarded as belonging to the maker rather than the buyer, but they appear to be extremely strict about only taking things they are entitled to.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I think you're once again exhibiting you're utter lack of ability to comprehend another poster's text, especially if framing it as an "agenda." That's a hilariously paranoid framing there, but you do you.

Thanks dude, I appreciate your personal attack when I already said I was leaving while clicking the "Watch" button to stop receiving notifcations, but you do you.
Looks like I hit a nerve.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Let us all get back to being civil or just ignore one another if need be, please.

Let me be clear in saying I personally don't think Rowling has any sort of tangible "point" or "agenda" in utilizing this trope or stereotypical portrayal. I don't think it was some secret Jew-hating attempt to get it into popular media. I think it's more than likely something that existed as an ugly cultural relic which ended up being include in her story setting that she never thought twice about in writing or editing.

Like blackface jokes from cartoons circa the 1940s and 50s, these type of images weren't necessarily products of outright malice or hate. They were products of ignorance. Disrespectful portrayals born from the cultural/societal ethos that existed back then, which accepted that type of humor and depiction for entertainment. Those type of racist caricatures aren't necessarily about spawning a direct, prejudicial and hateful reaction, they're merely a regurgitation of the same tropes and cultural norms that were present at the time. It's nothing with a direct tangible intent like say, Daily Stormer racist propaganda or memes. It's just a product of potential ignorance.

Couldn't it just be a regurgitation of goblin tropes then?

 

[Odysseus]

You guys are making my boy cry. He just wanted to be the champ.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Let us all get back to being civil or just ignore one another if need be, please.



Couldn't it just be a regurgitation of goblin tropes then?

I mean, it could be, but when one of the people she goes to bat for and retweets is Magdalen Berns, who's stated that the real reason the trans movement even exists now, is because George Soros is funding it, you see why there's heightened scrutiny and criticism of what she does now.

Things take a different light. I don't necessarily think she's a George Soros conspiracy nut, but she apparently is okay with them. And that throws an entirely new perspective over what she does.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's a fair observation, of course, though if we look at others she has gone to bat for, it has included Jewish people on numerous occasions. Heck, she went to bat against blacklisting Israel when it was fashionable to do so.

Probably the moral of the story here is that she just needs to stay the hell off Twitter.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a fair observation, of course, though if we look at others she has gone to bat for, it has included Jewish people on numerous occasions. Heck, she went to bat against blacklisting Israel when it was fashionable to do so.

Probably the moral of the story here is that she just needs to stay the hell off Twitter.

I definitely agree that's a very good lesson to follow. She could have saved herself a lot of trouble just simply following that.

 

[JBedford]

I know this is purely anecdotal, but I am from England and was raised in a Christian household. I did not know Jew was a race until my mid-teens. Learning that made a lot of things make more sense (like the Holocaust genocide). I basically only heard about the stereotypes online (mainly from a Jewish American), and so I asked in my confusion. Judaism was just another religion to me, like Christianity. I'm not even sure I know any Jewish people IRL (well, there was this guy called Kyle, but that might have just been a South Park joke). And I've never had the thought that "that person looks Jewish" before. (for more context, the 2011 census says that .1% of my town has the Jewish religion)

The whole anti-semite thing around Corbyn et al was also an eye-opening for me because it all sounded so batshit. I didn't think people actually had any specific anti-Jew sentiment in this country.

I'm not saying these Jewish stereotypes don't exist in UK media or the minds of the populous. But my experience left me entirely oblivious to it. And maybe I am just privileged enough to be horribly ignorant to the plight of the Jewish in my country. It is not something I have ever had to think about. But it does mean whenever I see a goblin I only think "that's a goblin". If I were to write a goblin species, the thought "does this sound like a Jewish caricature" would not cross my mind. Well, it wouldn't have before I read this thread.

 

[Noble0ne]

edit * I WAS ON PAGE 3 WHEN I WROTE THIS* edit
I'm going to assume a lot of posts are just sharing some feels (in case they apply). Which is cool, but the more I think about it (in case it applies), I don't buy fully into the notion that this here is a case of, 'Americans seeing race all weird or more overblown than other nations'. I think people are quick to equate a personal preference to tiered American way of thinking. a perceived pattern may lead people to assume the worst. But in defense of my post here, to be clear race separating is not what's going on.

For one, IM not asking for anything. nor expecting anything, and if I could see every work of art ever made on earth lean toward my preference, I would not want every single work to be a carbon copy quota diversity template across the board. How, or if, the shared whims that cross my mind should be applied, is a fiar & welcome (not a demand).

second, I am a Nigerian, that lived in Nigeria as a kid, with Nigerian family and friends that have since spread around the globe. I'm 100% African as I am 100% American. Furthermore, I'm not very nationalistic compared to counterparts on either side of my background. I consider myself a pretty well-traveled world citizen. I for one lived in Madrid for a short while, I stayed in Puerto Rico a year. I stayed in London for a year. I've been to many more places outside just the tourist areas. Jamaica, Dubai, many African countries. Visiting for extended periods does not establish you as very versed in an area at all, but the typical American is not too traveled or rounded by that standard.

here's another scenario to consider, I have a Nigerian friend by heritage that grew up & still lives in Poland. He never set foot in America but I assure you, my friend, as an African, agrees to things I have said. Our talks on diversity were not as American or Polish or African, but often as darker shaded people on the globe. and what if another one of my childhood schoolmates that moved to China said similar, would she as a Chines immigrant make chinas way of thinking racialized, imperialistic, tiresome?

The typical American media track record, I truly can get being critical of it. its no secrete many Americans themselves have qualms with typical American propaganda performance inside their media. I'm not defending America on that note at all, but my personal influences and exposure are more than just American & at least not typical American. but then I might be affected to a degree bigger than I realize. Either way, In this day in age, especially when you reach a world stage, people are way more traveled than in the past and way more connected. that often irons out a lot of the localized group-think effect. furthermore, I don't even think diversity or a different world stage perspective has to be restrictive when storytelling fiction with unapologetic cultural accuracy & authenticity.

last, in no specific importance order, I have not found a country to live in that doesn't remind me about race. whether I like it or not. I would have moved there and stayed if I did. So thinking that race is simply a man-made construct that doesn't affect your country is cool, but Nah, I doubt that it is rosy like that (even if that's how it should be). However, I find it does not even have to be about the race to be about feeling represented. I can watch silhouette stick figures fighting and if every stick figure on screen throughout a production always has some sort of long hair, I might ask are they all women? then if the creators say no that's just there thing, then as a fan I still might think a bald head one might be cool. specifically here, its shade, not the race I'm noticing. Shade is no smaller or bigger a thing I notice than any other thing I notice. I would notice if every ff7 character only had blue or green eye color. I would notice if no NPC was old age. Making it seem like a foreign concept to notice shade is what would make race a thing in the first place.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Some women have short hair or are bald. Many men have long hair. If I were watching shadow figures and they all had long hair, it simply would not occur to me that they must all be women. It might occur to me that they were characters in a mediaeval Chinese drama, though.

 

[Noble0ne]

the hell... the refresh I got after I hit send... just read like 5 pages, I wasn't expecting the turn in the conversation. welp, guess I'm late. ehh F it

 

[Noble0ne]

Some women have short hair or are bald. Many men have long hair. If I were watching shadow figures and they all had long hair, it simply would not occur to me that they must all be women. It might occur to me that they were characters in a medieval Chinese drama, though.

nothing wrong if they come across to you as having sort of a medieval Chinese drama. you could still decidedly think a change in aesthetics can be cool too if you wanted. I'm a dude & actually have dreads past my shoulders. So yeah, it's not that I can't image guys with long hair. inquiry for me sometimes isn't about my perspective but sometimes it's patiently gauging anther person perspective before applying my logic into the mix... getting more informed before opinionated

 

[Clement Rage]

Everyone notices different things (it's why I keep complaining that the Shinra army should really have more women in it) and I don't think anyone is saying that anywhere has achieved enlightenment as to prejudice. But in terms of that clip, there are potential issues.

Making the Cetra black (where in story they are exterminated) comes with its own problems, because now you have people wondering if there was a message there about a particular earth race being superior to the others in its ways or more attuned to the earth somehow, and opens up Square to accusations of racism.

A diverse range of people would probably be best, but you might have to do a slightly different propaganda video where it shows different tribes across the world uniting before the meteor hit... but then you can't do the transition to modern day Midgar. Most likely Square just didn't think about it.

 

[Noble0ne]

team shinra soldiers need some women.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Or even just more than one face.
I'm surprised the Remake had no women soldiers when the novella explicitly mentions them