FFIX....Another Ultimania project?

[Makoeyes987]

Well I think Kuja's actions kinda called Necron to the party. I don't think Kuja literally created him on the spot. His title in the profile and speech state that he's been around since the beginning and Kuja's actions merely validated his belief. He's been around since the fear of death existed because it spawned him, and Kuja's actions were the final straw that got him going.

And LOL Onslaught. Holy shit...Yeah, he kinda does resemble Necron in a sense huh? But Necron has been around since conceivably the birth of existence. Onslaught...not so much. But they both seem to have a good fucking bit in common, don't they?

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23851#msg23851 date=1235702796]
But how does a monster thats born from the fear of death somehow grant you life if you kill it? Where in any of the materials or the game does that postulation even come from? What is it based on?

I mean, seriously, do you know how bizarre and baseless that claim is? As curiousACfan just pointed out, he's not a god. That was my mistake in describing him. Here's what his profile says from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania.

Eternal Darkness [Necron]
Monster created by fear of death

A being awoken by the fear, despair, and hated of Kuja, who discovered, with the fulfillment of his ambition near, that he had little time left to live. It rejects the cycle of life through the crystal and attempts to return every world, including Terra and Gaia, to nothing. The final enemy to confront Zidane's team.

A monster. He's just some opportunistic asshole who popped out of nowhere to kill you. Why would killing him bring you back to life? Wtf? Why would he even do that? And where does it show this?

I'm not going to let go of my mind if it means opening it up to baseless conclusions drawn from zero objective evidence from the game or materials.

@Dacon

Read the profile that's in mah post
[/quote]

.....

That's it? Lame.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes, that's all there is. Sorry to disappoint?

 

[Ⓐaron]

It was intended to be a throwback to Zeromus. Of course, Zeromus was lame too. It's the one major weak point of FFIX, I think, and probably the main reason I rank FFVI above it.

 

[Tetsujin]

And yeah, the final battle took place but who says its another dimension

Uhm, the giant space flea out of nowhere himself said so.

Zidane: Where are we?
SpaceFleaOutOfNowhere: In another dimension than yours.

Straight out of his mouth...thing. I just played that part last weekend.

In the end, the whole thing really was just a Big Lipped Alligator Moment.

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Makoeyes987]I mean the wailing in the background music of the area is hardly indicative to the plot of the story or the location being the afterlife. I mean, that's a bit of circular logic. The wailing is because its the afterlife, and the proof that its the afterlife is the wailing.[/quote]

Well, that isn't what I said. What I said is that's one possible hint that, when, taken with other details, may amount to a reasonable conclusion that they died.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]And if the characters were suddenly thrust into the world of the dead, wouldn't they say something? Wouldn't they comment on hearing these voices?[/quote]

Why? The scene was written such that everyone but Zidane was out of it while he has a conversation with Necron, then they fight him, and then they get teleported out. There's no moment where they converse among each other except to give one another encouragement immediately before the battle.

I also don't see why you feel that they should have commented on dying and being brought back. The heroes of FFIII died and were revived without commenting on either their death or resurrection.

That's true of both the NES original and the DS remake. Heck, in the remake, they don't even say so much as "thank you" like they did in the original.

The cast of FFIV didn't say anything about getting brought back from the brink of death. Cloud fought Sephiroth outside his body and didn't comment on it. Squall went back in time and saw that his actions were all part of a time loop but didn't make any comments to that effect.

The circumstances of all of these events were evident just by what was going on at the time. We didn't rely on the characters saying stuff in order for us to reach those conclusions.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]It's just background music. I mean, no one postulates that a choir of angels are singing "One Winged Angel" during the final battle against Sephiroth, do they?[/quote]

The wailing is there before the battle starts, though. It continues into the battle with him as well, yes, but it's there before that, and a different piece of music picks up during the fight.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]And its called "The Hill of Despair." When does despair = death?[/quote]

I'll admit up front that I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I don't think think proving anything is going to be possible.

But the wailing could be potentially important as support for the idea that Necron had something to do with the Iifa Tree. I realize that no one who made the game has ever given an indication to that effect outside the game itself, but with what they gave us, I think it's a reasonable interpretation.

The lack of confirmation of that idea (if anything, they've just confirmed that they really didn't think it through) doesn't stop us from finding a way on our own for it all to make sense, though. Just like we find ways to explain what Ark is based on what was given to us, despite a lack of any kind of explanation.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]And again, you need to explain to me how none of the characters comment on their death, resurrection, or surprise that Kuja somehow reconstructed their dead bodies, brought them back to life, and teleported them out of Memoria all at the exact same time.[/quote]

Since I already addressed most of that, the only other thing I'll add to it is that since they didn't comment on the teleportation aspect of things either, I see no reason to hold the rest of it to that standard.

For that matter, they didn't comment on Necron either. If we went WTF, then what must they have thought?

And both the teleportation and Necron are easily as strange for them as any other part of that scenario.

Of course, they could have talked about any or all of it while the camera was focusing on the airships. So you really can't say that they didn't notice that they died.

I also don't see why the burden of explanation is on those who believe they were killed and revived. It wouldn't be the first or even the second time that had happened in a main series Final Fantasy game, and this one payed homage to all those main titles that had come before.

I could as easily rephrase your statement as you needing to explain to me a) why the characters vanished when hit by Ultima here when they didn't on Terra, b) why they all conveniently landed together somewhere that was in Crystal World, and c) why, if alive, an immobile rendering of their body was shown when they were passing energy to each other before the fight, even as they were speaking.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]If Kuja had that kind of power, then certainly he'd be able to somehow keep himself from dying. I mean, really.
[/quote]

Why? He already had the power to absorb souls but couldn't prolong his own life. What makes this any less believable?


A couple of other things you said earlier that I wanted to respond to, by the way:

[quote author=Makoeyes987]Furthermore, how can the party members give the ones who will fight Necron in the final fight the strength and life energy TO fight if they're already dead?[/quote]

See, my question would be the opposite: Why would they be able to so easily transfer life energy while alive? It seems more plausible that they could do it after dead.

By the way, as far as doing that after death goes, that's exactly what Doga and Unei did in FFIII to revive the heroes. They shared their souls with the dead heroes.

Also, just look at FFVII. I mean, transferring energy after death is absolutely not a big deal in Final Fantasy. It's business as usual.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]Look at the area you fight Deathguise. It doesn't really match the area where they confronted Kuja, but you don't hear people trying to theorize that they fought Deathguise in another dimension, do you?[/quote]

Well, there were certainly freaky clouds below the area where Kuja fought the party.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]If they would've died, their spirit energy would've passed on and went to the crystal.[/quote]

Brahne's didnt.

And under the idea that Necron's the Iifa Tree, their souls ran into exactly what they should have if they had died, right?

See, there's so many ways to interpret something like this.

[quote author=Makoeyes987]I don't really care what other stories have done. We're talking about the specific game, FFIX.[/quote]

I just want to add there that anything should be examined in its wider context in order to make full sense of it. The wider context of FFIX, of course, is that it's a story full of homages to other stories. Some see that itself as a big indication that party died.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why? The scene was written such that everyone but Zidane was out of it while he has a conversation with Necron, then they fight him, and then they get teleported out. There's no moment where they converse among each other except to give one another encouragement immediately before the battle.

I also don't see why you feel that they should have commented on dying and being brought back. The heroes of FFIII died and were revived without commenting on either their death or resurrection.

That's true of both the NES original and the DS remake. Heck, in the remake, they don't even say so much as "thank you" like they did in the original.

The cast of FFIV didn't say anything about getting brought back from the brink of death. Cloud fought Sephiroth outside his body and didn't comment on it. Squall went back in time and saw that his actions were all part of a time loop but didn't make any comments to that effect.

The circumstances of all of these events were evident just by what was going on at the time. We didn't rely on the characters saying stuff in order for us to reach those conclusions.

All of those examples you've just brought up have tangible evidence that show the characters dying. In the absence of them acknowledging their own death, the story explicitly shows or verifies their fate.

And the examples of the characters being near death isn't quite as relevant because while on the brink, they are still alive, and are trying to fight. Acknowledgment isn't really necessary there. We can see it.

FFIX gives no verification of them dying OR any words of the characters stating their fate. All we see is them barely conscious on the hill and then them giving energy to each other so that the final group can take out Necron. That's not any hint that they are dead.

The wailing is there before the battle starts, though. It continues into the battle with him as well, yes, but it's there before that, and a different piece of music picks up during the fight.

That really doesn't answer anything and is just a choice in the arrangement of the background music. Not much evidence of them being dead either.

I'll admit up front that I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I don't think think proving anything is going to be possible.

But the wailing could be potentially important as support for the idea that Necron had something to do with the Iifa Tree. I realize that no one who made the game has ever given an indication to that effect outside the game itself, but with what they gave us, I think it's a reasonable interpretation.

The lack of confirmation of that idea (if anything, they've just confirmed that they really didn't think it through) doesn't stop us from finding a way on our own for it all to make sense, though. Just like we find ways to explain what Ark is based on what was given to us, despite a lack of any kind of explanation.

See, but that reasoning is circular.

The voices wailing in the background of the Hill of Despair are souls.
Souls wail only in the afterlife.
The Hill of Despair is in the afterlife.

That's faulty reasoning. For one, you're classifying the wailing as souls automatically without even taking into consideration that its just background music like everything else in the entire game. There's no hint to any in-universe acknowledgment from the characters which would justify the voices' scenario importance.

Also, what if the voices aren't spirits at all? There are other conclusions to be reached other than them being disembodied spirits. What if Necron, a being born from the fear of death, carries with him the aura of said fear, and that sound is due to his presence? There are plenty of other plausible conclusions that can be reached based on the scant information we have on that sound.

Since I already addressed most of that, the only other thing I'll add to it is that since they didn't comment on the teleportation aspect of things either, I see no reason to hold the rest of it to that standard.

For that matter, they didn't comment on Necron either. If we went WTF, then what must they have thought?

Zidane remarks that he had a feeling it was Kuja when it happened. That's enough acknowledgment. They may not have said anything, but at least Zidane shows acknowledgment and thus explains the sudden occurrence in the story. Furthermore its attributed to teleportation. Not healing, life restoration, or anything else. Just...teleportation. The game answers what happens clearly.

Zidane, who was conscious, was enough acknowledgment of Necron as well. Also, all the other characters fight him. That's acknowledgment of his threat to existence. They clearly are aware of his malicious intent. There's no question.

I also don't see why the burden of explanation is on those who believe they were killed and revived. It wouldn't be the first or even the second time that had happened in a main series Final Fantasy game, and this one payed homage to all those main titles that had come before.

That's just the nature of logic and debate. When both sides fail to give evidence, then it is the side of the positive claimant to meet the burden of proof. If you're going to prove the existence of them being dead, you gotta offer the evidence that supports it. I'm just going by the explicit depiction shown in the game. If you're trying to prove the existence of it somehow having the meaning of them being dead, then you gotta put forth evidence that shows it, otherwise the conclusion of it existing is baseless.

I could as easily rephrase your statement as you needing to explain to me a) why the characters vanished when hit by Ultima here when they didn't on Terra, b) why they all conveniently landed together somewhere that was in Crystal World, and c) why, if alive, an immobile rendering of their body was shown when they were passing energy to each other before the fight, even as they were speaking.

They disappeared because they were blasted by Ultima. But that doesn't give any indication whatsoever to them being in a different dimension. Again, look to the sudden scene change when they fought Deathguise. Apparently there are many different places in the Crystal World where they can fight.

They landed in an area together in the Crystal World because they were all in the general location of where they confronted Kuja. The story doesn't say or show the characters splitting up.

Why? He already had the power to absorb souls but couldn't prolong his own life. What makes this any less believable?

Good point. Fair enough. But still, there's not any evidence of Kuja having such power ever in the storyline.

See, my question would be the opposite: Why would they be able to so easily transfer life energy while alive? It seems more plausible that they could do it after dead.

By the way, as far as doing that after death goes, that's exactly what Doga and Unei did in FFIII to revive the heroes. They shared their souls with the dead heroes.

Also, just look at FFVII. I mean, transferring energy after death is absolutely not a big deal in Final Fantasy. It's business as usual.

If you're going to give your life energy to heal someone, they have to be alive to be healed.

Yeah, but FFIII doesn't exactly share the same world mechanics as FFIX. It's a lot more loose in how it works with life and death obviously.

If everyone's dead, how are they going to give their energy to another dead person? It'd make no difference, they'd be dead. They're all just spirits. They shouldn't be tired or weak if they have no bodies to be weak with. If anything, it'd just be a fusion of two different bodies of spirit energy. Usually when energy is transferred to give strength or life, one party is alive, and the other is dead. Dead to dead transfer makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, there were certainly freaky clouds below the area where Kuja fought the party.

But those floating rocks and sky were never shown anywhere near the final area before the Crystal.

Brahne's didnt.

And under the idea that Necron's the Iifa Tree, their souls ran into exactly what they should have if they had died, right?

See, there's so many ways to interpret something like this.

Bhrane's didn't because the Invincible sucks up souls. That's been shown and explained.

And Necron being the Iifa Tree just never made any sense, especially considering the fact that Necron describes himself as a being of non-existent and death. The theory just seemed like one big stab in the dark to justify and explain an already simple (albeit lame) appearance for a final boss. A conclusion drawn for such a purpose just doesn't seem valid.

I just want to add there that anything should be examined in its wider context in order to make full sense of it. The wider context of FFIX, of course, is that it's a story full of homages to other stories. Some see that itself as a big indication that party died.

That's only in terms of looking at it in terms of its general storytelling, plot development, and development. When we're looking at its specific world elements, comparing FFIX to Lord of the Rings or Star Wars will make absolutely no sense. Sticking to the facts of the story and basing logical conclusions based on what we know will give a more definitive and valid answer than just comparing it to a bunch of other random stories.

 

[Tetsujin]

Don't ignore my post D=

 

[Makoeyes987]

[quote author=Tetsujin link=topic=544.msg23923#msg23923 date=1235727273]
Don't ignore my post D=
[/quote]

Didn't know you made one.

Okay, so I'll give you that. They're in another dimension. Okay.

Proof that its the world of the dead then, please.

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23924#msg23924 date=1235727685]
[quote author=Tetsujin link=topic=544.msg23923#msg23923 date=1235727273]
Don't ignore my post D=
[/quote]

Didn't know you made one.

Okay, so I'll give you that. They're in another dimension. Okay.

Proof that its the world of the dead then, please.
[/quote]

I never made that claim, so I'm gonna pass on that subject.
I just wanted to point out it's a different dimension...as to what dimension it is...I'm as clueless as everyone else.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's human nature to try to explain the unexplainable by tying it to something more salient and logical.

When people see Elvis's face randomly on a slice of toast, they don't think "Wow! What an interesting and coincidental pattern on the side of this toast!"

They would instead rather think, "OMG!! Elvis's spirit is in that piece of bread and has shown itself to me because he knows I love him!!!! The reason its here is because of me!!"

I mean, sometimes, shit really is random.

 

[Tetsujin]

As I said, it's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment.

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23915#msg23915 date=1235725508]All of those examples you've just brought up have tangible evidence that show the characters dying. In the absence of them acknowledging their own death, the story explicitly shows or verifies their fate.[/quote]

I think many would fairly argue that FFIX offered tangible evidence of death as well. The disappearing bodies for one, the visual presentation in the energy transfer for another -- and the fact that an energy transfer was even possible.

I believe any and all of that could reasonably be counted.

See, but that reasoning is circular.

The voices wailing in the background of the Hill of Despair are souls.
Souls wail only in the afterlife.
The Hill of Despair is in the afterlife.

Well, not the afterlife so much as a space where they're being separated from the crystal and turned into Mist, but I see your point.

That's faulty reasoning. For one, you're classifying the wailing as souls automatically without even taking into consideration that its just background music like everything else in the entire game. There's no hint to any in-universe acknowledgment from the characters which would justify the voices' scenario importance.

Also, what if the voices aren't spirits at all? There are other conclusions to be reached other than them being disembodied spirits. What if Necron, a being born from the fear of death, carries with him the aura of said fear, and that sound is due to his presence? There are plenty of other plausible conclusions that can be reached based on the scant information we have on that sound.

Perfectly plausible. See what I mean about the various avenues of interpretation?

Zidane remarks that he had a feeling it was Kuja when it happened. That's enough acknowledgment. They may not have said anything, but at least Zidane shows acknowledgment and thus explains the sudden occurrence in the story. Furthermore its attributed to teleportation. Not healing, life restoration, or anything else. Just...teleportation. The game answers what happens clearly.

Actually, Zidane says it several minutes later to Kuja, not to his teammates, and neither mention teleportation. Kuja just asks "Your comrades were able to escape?" and Zidane says "Yeah ... I knew you had something to do with it."

I mean, it obviously was teleportation (same Terra symbol and everything), but nobody attributes it to that, and we see no evidence of the heroes discussing it amongst one another.

As for healing, though, obviously Kuja healed them, even according to your argument. Your claim is that Kuja nearly killed the whole team, Necron said "Haaaai gaaaais! I blow you all now! But not in a good way!" and then half the already criticially injured team offered up their life energy to heal the other four members of the team so they could fight.

By the end of the fight, then, the four members of the team who were warming the bench should be either dead or close to it. Instead, everybody is fresh as Snuggle Bear when they ride in on the teleportation gates.

Zidane, who was conscious, was enough acknowledgment of Necron as well. Also, all the other characters fight him. That's acknowledgment of his threat to existence. They clearly are aware of his malicious intent. There's no question.

My meaning is that there's never a point where they ask "Who the fuck was that guy?" If we've been asking that for eight years now, one would think they'd have to be a little curious as well.

But neither Necron nor the teleportation are shown as a topic of discussion for the party.

That's just the nature of logic and debate. When both sides fail to give evidence, then it is the side of the positive claimant to meet the burden of proof.

But you made the initial claim, didn't you?

Anyway, I think we've both presented plenty of reasonable evidence for an interpretation in either direction.

If you're trying to prove the existence of it somehow having the meaning of them being dead, then you gotta put forth evidence that shows it, otherwise the conclusion of it existing is baseless.

Not baseless, but not verifiable either.

That's just the nature of ambiguity. What seems baseless to one person seems rock solid to another. People aren't going to interpret the same things the same way when provided few cues.

Think of those ink blot tests they use for psychological testing. Actually, one of those ink blots might have made a better final boss than Necron.

They disappeared because they were blasted by Ultima.

But, like I said, it didn't happen on Terra. You can't use Terra as a case for them surviving it in Crystal World, but then make the above counterargument when the disappearing effect didn't happen on Terra as well.

We know they survived the blast on Terra because they were shown clearly alive after. We know they didn't disappear when hit with Ultima there because we could still see them.

In CW, they vanish, and it's not so clear that they're alive after. That is, in fact, the topic up for discussion.

But that doesn't give any indication whatsoever to them being in a different dimension.

Well, in Japanese, the very first thing Necron says is "This is a different dimension than your world and I am the Eternal Darkness" (???????????????????????????……). But that, too, is ambiguous.

EDIT: Ah, Tetsujin already made this point.

Again, look to the sudden scene change when they fought Deathguise. Apparently there are many different places in the Crystal World where they can fight.

Don't worry, I'm not disputing that. I even said that it looks like it would have had to be below those freaky clouds.

They landed in an area together in the Crystal World because they were all in the general location of where they confronted Kuja. The story doesn't say or show the characters splitting up.

It shows Kuja getting thrown around like a leaf in a hurricane when he was a good forty feet from the blast. The people at the center of it should have been tossed all over the place, no?

Good point. Fair enough. But still, there's not any evidence of Kuja having such power ever in the storyline.

Glad we agree on the point about his mortality at least.

As far as your other point goes, there's no denying that he's never shown to be able to construct a living body out of thin air. You're correct, of course.

He is definitely able to heal people, though (per the fact that half the team isn't being measured for their funeral attire after he teleports them out of Memoria), and he is shown with the ability to manipulate souls and give them a real body on multiple occasions.

Just look at the Mist monsters he makes, and that was before he drank his Trancade.

I can see how someone would find him remaking their bodies after blowing them up a believable display of power after all the other stuff he'd done before that.

If you're going to give your life energy to heal someone, they have to be alive to be healed.

I didn't say it was to heal them, though. That's your interpretation. I'm arguing devil's advocate for the other side.

Yeah, but FFIII doesn't exactly share the same world mechanics as FFIX. It's a lot more loose in how it works with life and death obviously.

My point is that it was done before. And I also mentioned FFVII, which shares the same -- or at least very similar -- world mechanics.

If everyone's dead, how are they going to give their energy to another dead person? It'd make no difference, they'd be dead. They're all just spirits. They shouldn't be tired or weak if they have no bodies to be weak with. If anything, it'd just be a fusion of two different bodies of spirit energy. Usually when energy is transferred to give strength or life, one party is alive, and the other is dead. Dead to dead transfer makes no sense whatsoever.

It equals more power in one body, which is helpful.

Well, there were certainly freaky clouds below the area where Kuja fought the party.

But those floating rocks and sky were never shown anywhere near the final area before the Crystal.

I know, that's why I'm saying that battle was probably below the puke sky under the crystal.

Bhrane's didn't because the Invincible sucks up souls. That's been shown and explained.

Right, and all I'm saying is that dying doesn't equal instant shipment to the crystal. Someone can interfere.

And Necron being the Iifa Tree just never made any sense, especially considering the fact that Necron describes himself as a being of non-existent and death. The theory just seemed like one big stab in the dark to justify and explain an already simple (albeit lame) appearance for a final boss. A conclusion drawn for such a purpose just doesn't seem valid.

It also explained why the Iifa Tree died, though, which -- like you said -- justified the appearance of the lame final boss and tied everything up into a neat package that actually works pretty decently as a story. Of course, as with everything else, the Iifa Tree's death is ambiguous.

Anything from Zidane to Kuja to the explosion of Memoria could have been responsible for it.

That's only in terms of looking at it in terms of its general storytelling, plot development, and development. When we're looking at its specific world elements, comparing FFIX to Lord of the Rings or Star Wars will make absolutely no sense. Sticking to the facts of the story and basing logical conclusions based on what we know will give a more definitive and valid answer than just comparing it to a bunch of other random stories.

Random stories, yes. The eight stories that inspired this one, not necessarily.

Though I'd agree with you that some LotR and Star Wars snuck their way in.


Anyway, like I said, not looking to prove anyone right or wrong. Just an interesting discussion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You devil advocate's truly are....devilish. XD

I think many would fairly argue that FFIX offered tangible evidence of death as well. The disappearing bodies for one, the visual presentation in the energy transfer for another -- and the fact that an energy transfer was even possible.

I believe any and all of that could reasonably be counted.

Well you could try to argue it but the evidence of them being dead is just subjective, weak, ambiguous elements that require you to turn your head and squint your eyes. Thinking they just lived and merely got blasted away makes more sense. It doesn't really give rise to any questions or confusion.

Perfectly plausible. See what I mean about the various avenues of interpretation?

Well when you open the floodgates you get all these random interpretations that apparently are equal. That doesn't give rise to an actual answer. I mean, we're looking for answers right? Not just random interpretations.

Actually, Zidane says it several minutes later to Kuja, not to his teammates, and neither mention teleportation. Kuja just asks "Your comrades were able to escape?" and Zidane says "Yeah ... I knew you had something to do with it."

I mean, it obviously was teleportation (same Terra symbol and everything), but nobody attributes it to that, and we see no evidence of the heroes discussing it amongst one another.

As for healing, though, obviously Kuja healed them, even according to your argument. Your claim is that Kuja nearly killed the whole team, Necron said "Haaaai gaaaais! I blow you all now! But not in a good way!" and then half the already critically injured team offered up their life energy to heal the other four members of the team so they could fight.

By the end of the fight, then, the four members of the team who were warming the bench should be either dead or close to it. Instead, everybody is fresh as Snuggle Bear when they ride in on the teleportation gates.

You raise an interesting point about the other four being able to walk and stuff at the end. But I'd sooner attribute it to them being able to rest and regain their strength than just sudden curation. But okay. I'll give you that. Still doesn't give proof that they were dead or Kuja can raise the dead.

My meaning is that there's never a point where they ask "Who the fuck was that guy?" If we've been asking that for eight years now, one would think they'd have to be a little curious as well.

But neither Necron nor the teleportation are shown as a topic of discussion for the party.

Zidane asks who Necron is when he first appears. That's enough. They really don't care because he's a threat. Necron's speech was enough and they want to get the fuck out and go home. But at least they do acknowledge him and have someone say something. The whole "zomg we died" thing has absolutely nothing going for it save for some subjective, and highly suspect interpretations. At least when you go with they're alive, you don't have to turn your head around and squint to see how it'd make sense.

But you made the initial claim, didn't you?

Anyway, I think we've both presented plenty of reasonable evidence for an interpretation in either direction.

Technically, since you're postulating that they died, which is not shown clearly in the game or given evidence in all the subsequent materials, you have the burden of proof. My position, which is essentially, they just got blown up, sent to Necron, beat him and went home, is justified by what's just shown in the game. I claim they didn't die because it showed no death in FFIX and gave no definitive answer toward it, see?

Not baseless, but not verifiable either.

That's just the nature of ambiguity. What seems baseless to one person seems rock solid to another. People aren't going to interpret the same things the same way when provided few cues.

Think of those ink blot tests they use for psychological testing. Actually, one of those ink blots might have made a better final boss than Necron.

Well them being alive isn't baseless because they were alive when the battle with Necron ended and alive before when they started fighting Kuja. Since you're claiming they died somewhere inbetween that, you gotta give the evidence that's indicative to a sudden change in their condition and then restoration of their life.

And yes, an inkblot would be a better boss than Necron. I just seriously can't fucking get why Kuja wasn't good enough.

He is definitely able to heal people, though (per the fact that half the team isn't being measured for their funeral attire after he teleports them out of Memoria), and he is shown with the ability to manipulate souls and give them a real body on multiple occasions.

Just look at the Mist monsters he makes, and that was before he drank his Trancade.

I can see how someone would find him remaking their bodies after blowing them up a believable display of power after all the other stuff he'd done before that.

Fair enough about the healing, but no living being in FFIX has been shown having the divine ability to literally resurrect the brutally killed or dead. So I think such a divine attribution requires a great deal of evidence. Kuja being able to heal is within the realm of possibilities since we have other characters who can do that too.

I didn't say it was to heal them, though. That's your interpretation. I'm arguing devil's advocate for the other side.

...You're really good at this devil's advocate thing XD

Well clearly some form of healing/strength giving/etc had to have happened in that exchange. It just seems rather superfluous, unnecessary, and inconsistent that in death...you need the strength of your non-existent body to fight another spiritual being. Unless you're fusing your spirit with another or something which opens up an even larger can of worms.

I mean, shit. It's like one of those fucking Russian Egg toys where you open one egg doll, and then there's another...and another....and another. Each answer, only gives rise to another question. My head hurts!

My point is that it was done before. And I also mentioned FFVII, which shares the same -- or at least very similar -- world mechanics.

Where in FFVII do two dead people in the spirit world share energy in order to power one of them up, because one of them is exhausted?

It equals more power in one body, which is helpful.

....Okay, but they have no bodies. They're spirits. If two spirits combined and mixed together, then something's getting loss. How does that other spirit still exist as the same being when part of it has now been integrated into an entirely different soul? And the soul that has taken in the energy of the other, would now be different since the memories, spirit energy, etc would mix and create a different being. I mean, you're raising a bunch of unnecessary questions with this.

It also explained why the Iifa Tree died, though, which -- like you said -- justified the appearance of the lame final boss and tied everything up into a neat package that actually works pretty decently as a story. Of course, as with everything else, the Iifa Tree's death is ambiguous.

Anything from Zidane to Kuja to the explosion of Memoria could have been responsible for it.

I think the Iifa Tree died because Kuja said it was going through some violent cataclysmic reaction due to the destruction of Terra. It's not hard to think that since Terra died, the Iifa Tree suffered as well.

Random stories, yes. The eight stories that inspired this one, not necessarily.

Though I'd agree with you that some LotR and Star Wars snuck their way in.


Anyway, like I said, not looking to prove anyone right or wrong. Just an interesting discussion.

Well the other eight FF's came before it but you can't say that all of the elements and world mechanics of those FF's apply or give light to the world mechanics of FFIX. Some of them are entirely different or unrelated to FFIX. You have to compare things that are relevant. FFIV's world mechanics and stuff wouldn't help in understanding IX's.

But yeah, there you go. That's my tl;dr response

 

[Tetsujin]

I think the Iifa Tree died because Kuja said it was going through some violent cataclysmic reaction due to the destruction of Terra. It's not hard to think that since Terra died, the Iifa Tree suffered as well.

After what we've found out through the Ultimania (Terra being inside Gaia, the Iifa Tree basically reaching into it) this makes a whole lotta sense.

 

[Dark and Divine]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23948#msg23948 date=1235732720]
And yes, an inkblot would be a better boss than Necron. I just seriously can't fucking get why Kuja wasn't good enough.
[/quote]

Maybe they wanted to give Kuja redemption.

That's why they came up with Necron, Kuja teleporting Zidane and the others to safety and him realizing the purpose of life before dying.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They could've given Kuja redemption and kept him as the final boss.

Off the top of my head, when Kuja was defeated, Kuja's incredible power hurls them into out of the Crystal World dimension and back into Memoria. Memoria starts to fade out of existence due to the Iifa Tree's impending demise and because of the lack of time to escape they nearly are trapped in Memoria but Kuja teleports them out near the end and cue the ending like it is now.

Necron is totally unnecessary.

The only good thing that came from Necron was his fucking battle theme, and his cool ass attack. Grand Cross ftw. Though technically speaking it was ExDeath's first....

 

[Ryushikaze]

See, I always saw the hill of despair as the physical core of the Iifa tree, where the actual separation and distillation of the mist occurred, in that you were finishing off the tree once and for all. I can't really back that up, but that's what always seemed the most sensical for me.

Similarly, I never saw much of a reason for Necron beyond the 'Wait, you're the final boss? Who are you again' syndrome that FFs 1, 3, 4, and 8 had pulled in various degrees and forms. Even if it's the Iifa tree, the battle seems deliberately left field pointless. Similar to how the formless Ozma is a parody of uberbosses, Necron is a parody of the Anatagonist ex machina.

Huh. I see Hitobito's translated his entry. He really is a parody of Cloud of Darkness and Exdeath, ain't he?

 

[curiousACfan]

But yeah, there you go. That's my tl;dr response

tl;dr

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23948#msg23948 date=1235732720]Well you could try to argue it but the evidence of them being dead is just subjective, weak, ambiguous elements that require you to turn your head and squint your eyes.[/quote]

Of course it's subjective. But that's the -- often deliberate -- nature of a great deal of storytelling.

Sometimes the original author doesn't even have an answer.

Thinking they just lived and merely got blasted away makes more sense. It doesn't really give rise to any questions or confusion.

It definitely does. Like I mentioned in the previous post, there's the question of how they all landed together. Kuja getting blasted in one direction is fine, because he's one person.

But a blast that could throw him like that from so far away knocking eight people -- who were standing around the explosion -- all in the same direction? Way too unbelievable, and pretty much physics defying.

Yeah, I know a lot of stuff in there is physics defying, but for some of them it would have been like Kuja being blasted forward away from -- instead of backwards past -- the crystal.

Then there's the question of why half the team isn't dead after the fight.

And then there's the question of why they landed in a different dimension.

Those are three pretty big questions.

Well when you open the floodgates you get all these random interpretations that apparently are equal. That doesn't give rise to an actual answer. I mean, we're looking for answers right? Not just random interpretations.

There aren't answers to some questions, Mako. XD Real life doesn't even always get answers.

There's just interpretations that made sense to people at the time they played the game or after. Some of those work, some of them don't.

Actually, none of them work perfectly, but you get my point.

You raise an interesting point about the other four being able to walk and stuff at the end. But I'd sooner attribute it to them being able to rest and regain their strength than just sudden curation. But okay. I'll give you that. Still doesn't give proof that they were dead or Kuja can raise the dead.

Of course it doesn't give proof. XD You're missing the point, bud.

There will be no proof to anything any of us come up with. Just explanations that might work.

But while you'd sooner attribute the non-dead party members to just laying there a couple of minutes to recover -- and even I'd call that unlikely -- someone else would find it makes more sense to conclude that he remade their bodies and stuffed their spirits back inside them.

While he'd never done that specific thing before, he had made bodies out of Mist and controlled spirits. Putting the two of them together is hardly less believable than doing either of the other two things.

I mean, heck, Garland could do it, why not Kuja?

At least when you go with they're alive, you don't have to turn your head around and squint to see how it'd make sense.

See my response to the second quoted block. XD

Even if we allowed for the WTF physics of an explosion that only throws people in one direction regardless of where they're standing around it, and even though we can conclude that Kuja healed the team, we still have the team arriving in a different dimension.

Them being alive doesn't readily answer that one. Being dead, though? That does. It also resolves the matter of them being together when they wake up.

Don't get me wrong. The team being alive more readily answers why they were alive after the fight than them being dead does. But, like I said, an explanation with Kuja's powers can be used to hammer out something -- and I'm sure you could hammer out an explanation for why they would have landed in a different dimension while still alive, for that matter.

Hell, I could do it for you right now: Kuja's fear of death reacted with the crystal, created a little dimension (call it Fear of Death if you want) and voila, Necron's there! And because the party all fell through the warp, they all arrived together, even though Ultima threw them in different directions.

Do I have any proof for this? Not a damn bit! But!

With what we'd seen previously from Kuja and the crystal, why not? Just like with what we'd seen previously from Kuja, Mist and souls, when I look at the idea of him reviving the party, I say why not?

Neither of these interpretations are unworkable. Since the game made no attempt to answer the specifics, I think either explanation is reasonable.

I also think that any combination of Necron is Random Asshole (or the Iifa Tree) + the party was dead (or alive) + the tree died because of Necron's death (or Zidane did it, or Kuja did it, or Memoria's explosion did it, or Terra getting razed by Kuja earlier did it) are fair.

Technically, since you're postulating that they died, which is not shown clearly in the game or given evidence in all the subsequent materials, you have the burden of proof. My position, which is essentially, they just got blown up, sent to Necron, beat him and went home, is justified by what's just shown in the game.

Well, yes, because those are the things shown in the game. Them being blown up + still alive immdiately after can't be said to clearly be shown, though.

Just that they were alive a little while later.

In any attempt at explaining the game's finale, you have to explain all the details (the lack of a scatter from the explosion, the different dimension, the healed party members, the Iifa Tree dying, and Necron's own presence, of course). Some explanations explain some of those details better than others. And some explanations add extra questions, like how'd they do an energy transfer in the first place (if alive) and how'd their memories not get all mixed up (if dead).

None of the ideas we've talked about are unworkable.

I claim they didn't die because it showed no death in FFIX and gave no definitive answer toward it, see?

And that's a-ok. I'm just saying that with how little of any of it's definitive, I think any of the ideas here are equally valid.

And yes, an inkblot would be a better boss than Necron. I just seriously can't fucking get why Kuja wasn't good enough.

Because either the director or the event designer is an incompetent douchebag.

A living creature who has at least experienced life deciding that life isn't worth living is a little more poignant than some random asshole who doesn't even have the consideration to tell us where he came from.

When FFMystic Quest's Dark King makes you look uninspired, you know you're a really fucking lame final boss.

Fair enough about the healing, but no living being in FFIX has been shown having the divine ability to literally resurrect the brutally killed or dead.

Garland, man. That's his whole mission: Revive the people of Terra, so they can continue their eternal existence.

...You're really good at this devil's advocate thing XD

Thank you.

Where in FFVII do two dead people in the spirit world share energy in order to power one of them up, because one of them is exhausted?

Sephiroth absorbs life energy, gets bigger, more powerful.

Even disembodied, he starts his own spirit pokemon collection.

....Okay, but they have no bodies. They're spirits.

By "body," I mean "form." I'm saying, you add the power of one spirit with that of another, then you've got twice the bang for half the buck.

If two spirits combined and mixed together, then something's getting loss. How does that other spirit still exist as the same being when part of it has now been integrated into an entirely different soul? And the soul that has taken in the energy of the other, would now be different since the memories, spirit energy, etc would mix and create a different being. I mean, you're raising a bunch of unnecessary questions with this.

Necron himself is an unnecessary question. XD

Anyhow, I don't pretend to know everything about how spirits work, or even the transfer we were shown. Maybe they gave everything but their core elements. Maybe a transfer like that just provides power, plain and simple. Maybe Kuja separated their energy afterward, like Aeris.

I think the Iifa Tree died because Kuja said it was going through some violent cataclysmic reaction due to the destruction of Terra. It's not hard to think that since Terra died, the Iifa Tree suffered as well.

Well, that's not what he said exactly. He said the Iifa Tree was going to try facilitating Terra's assimilation of Gaia, which would lead to a cataclysmic destruction of Gaia.

It sounds like he was just talking about the process that Garland had been working on for the prior 5000 years.

 

[curiousACfan]

Oh my god, what the hell is wrong with me. Why didn't I think of this sooner?

A time that Kuja brought back someone who was dead, creating a living body for them and sticking their memories back in? The freakin' four Chaoses! They even had their memories! Maliris says "We meet again"!

Damn, why didn't I think of that sooner. Well, there you go, Mako. Proof positive that Kuja can pull it off.

 

[Tetsujin]

Tbh, I think he just teleported them into his own dimension/world/home for the sole purpose of delivering his "reason why you suck" speech to them (since after the job's done there'd be no one left to listen).

No dead people and no people getting blown away (since we actually see they get knocked down immediately and only Kuja gets knocked away by the explosion).
Heh....the heroes getting knocked down...Garland would've loved that.

 

[Dark and Divine]

CuriousACfan, i'm sorry, but i disagree with some of the points that you made.

First, i don't believe that Garland has the power to revive people.

Taking your example in consideration, I believe that the Terrans are, in reality, in suspended animation or something.

Before we face Garland, he has that speech about Life and Death and then he says "The people of Terra will sleep until they forget such nonsense", wich implies that they're alive, but in dormant state.

Second, I believe that Kuja recreated the four Chaoses through the memories contained in the Crystal.

At least, i think that's what he says when we reach him in the Crystal World.

And after the fight he was nowhere near the Crystal so, if Zidane and the others were really dead, he couldn't revive them, since he had no acess to the Crystal.

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Dark and Divine link=topic=544.msg24027#msg24027 date=1235758061]
CuriousACfan, i'm sorry, but i disagree with some of the points that you made.[/quote]

No need to apologize. I disagree with you too. XD

First, i don't believe that Garland has the power to revive people.

Taking your example in consideration, I believe that the Terrans are, in reality, in suspended animation or something.

Before we face Garland, he has that speech about Life and Death and then he says "The people of Terra will sleep until they forget such nonsense", wich implies that they're alive, but in dormant state.

He created the bodies of the Genomes to receive the souls of Terra's people, though. He even made Kuja, Zidane and Mikoto and gave them souls. That's making a body and sticking a soul in it, right?

Second, I believe that Kuja recreated the four Chaoses through the memories contained in the Crystal.

Exactly.

At least, i think that's what he says when we reach him in the Crystal World.

And after the fight he was nowhere near the Crystal so, if Zidane and the others were really dead, he couldn't revive them, since he had no acess to the Crystal.

We don't know where he was after the fight, really. We also don't know if he wasn't still linked to the crystal.

For all we know, during the fight with Necron, he may have gone back up to the crystal, used it to bring the others back, teleported them out, and teleported himself to the bottom underside of the tree. He obviously didn't fall there from Crystal World.

In any case, he was nowhere near Zidane and the others, but he still teleported them out. Why limit one fantastic ability by distance and not another?

 

[Dark and Divine]

[quote author=curiousACfan link=topic=544.msg24030#msg24030 date=1235759103]

No need to apologize. I disagree with you too. XD[/quote]

Then you don't mind the fact that i disagree with you again!

He created the bodies of the Genomes to receive the souls of Terra's people, though. He even made Kuja, Zidane and Mikoto and gave them souls. That's making a body and sticking a soul in it, right?

Indeed, but that's different from reviving someone.

To create Genomes, he had to create a body and put a soul in it, like you said, but he couldn't just cast a magic spell and revive someone.

We don't know where he was after the fight, really. We also don't know if he wasn't still linked to the crystal.

For all we know, during the fight with Necron, he may have gone back up to the crystal, used it to bring the others back, teleported them out, and teleported himself to the bottom underside of the tree. He obviously didn't fall there from Crystal World.

In any case, he was nowhere near Zidane and the others, but he still teleported them out. Why limit one fantastic ability by distance and not another?

Maybe he fell in the Hill of Despair too, teleported Zidane and the others and tried to teleport himslef too, but he was too weak to teleport himslef that far and only managed to teleport to inside the Iifa Tree.

Anyway, i don't think that he could acess to the Crystal being so far from it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Touche regarding the Kuja being able to create life point, curiousACfan. I forgot about that. However, he did that with outside help, did he not? He used the power of the crystal, didn't he?

But you do raise some pretty good points with that. But I'd say the questions of how they were all flung neatly together into that other universe could just be explained by the plot necessitating the party be together to face off Necron XD

The different dimension probably is due to Necron's will as well.

As for the Iifa tree, I stated that since Gaia and Terra occupy the same space, with the Iifa tree's roots going into Terra as well, the destruction of Terra caused a cataclysmic chain reaction that killed the Iifa tree as well.