FFIX....Another Ultimania project?

[Makoeyes987]

One thing I am dissapointed in, is that the FFIX Ultimania doesn't seem to have a section that outlines the main plot of the game, like FFVII's does.

And it doesn't seem to say anything about the final confrontation with Kuja in the Crystal World, OR anything about the master Crystal either.

I don't get why people keep asserting that Kuja destroyed the crystal and killed the heroes. It makes absolutely no sense given what the game shows us and tells us.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't get why people keep asserting that Kuja destroyed the crystal

Yeah, I wonder where that comes from anyway. If the crystal got destroyed there'd be no need for The Eternal Darkness to pop up since the universe would be gone in the first place. =/
Although I guess some people probably assume the crystal's destruction made him appear or something like that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

All very good points Tetsujin.

I'm trying to make some people see the light about that at the FF wikia. Let's see how that goes, lol.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

DIDN'T Kuja kill the heroes at least, though, and that's why they appeared to Necron?

 

[Dark and Divine]

Well, for me it is perfectly clear that when Kuja uses Ultima against the party in the Crystal World, the Crystal doesn't get hit.

The impact that Ultima probably caused a shockwave that made the ring around the Crystal fall from its position, but the Crystal itself was not affected.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

No, I never thought that the Crystal was shattered either. It definitely did seem that Ultima took the heroes out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So you believe Kuja has the power to reconstruct bodies, and ressurect the dead now, AND teleportation?

And how would the characters not even be aware of the fact they died or were brought back to life?

It's not like they didn't survive Kuja's first Ulitma either. The game makes no mention of them dying or Kuja killing them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Eh, I haven't played in a while; just something I thought was the case.

Kuja kills them, they see Necron because of it (the place they were in did sort of look like an underworld), they beat Necron, which resurrects them. Whether they were aware that they died would be irrelevant because you fight Necron immediately after, and maybe they would be aware that they were brought back to life after beating him, but even then that would be irrelevant because the ending is already in full swing.

It's a pretty prevalent theory in the fandom. Hell, similar things have happened in other RPGs.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How does beating Necron bring them back to life? What are the mechanics of that?

And that still doesn't explain them not even realizing the fact they died or came back to life. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Someone's going to say or make a statement about the fact that they just died and returned to life. If they can wonder how they were teleported out of Memoria, they certainly have time to mention the fact they died. Zidane seems quite aware of Kuja being the one that teleported him. How could he not be aware of Kuja somehow killing them or returning them to life, but be cognizant of Kuja being behind the teloportation? Common sense dictates you would realize when you got killed or blown up. Furthermore, how can the party members give the ones who will fight Necron in the final fight the strength and life energy TO fight if they're already dead?

That theory makes no sense. FFIX just shows you getting beaten by Kuja, appearing at the bottom of the Crystal World. Necron appears out of nowhere, and then you fight. That's really all there is to it. All of those other points are just shots in the dark. It really is, just that simple.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How does beating Necron bring them back to life? What are the mechanics of that?

And that still doesn't explain them not even realizing the fact they died or came back to life. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Someone's going to say or make a statement about the fact that they just died and returned to life. If they can wonder how they were teleported out of Memoria, they certainly have time to mention the fact they died. Zidane seems quite aware of Kuja being the one that teleported him. How could he not be aware of Kuja somehow killing them or returning them to life. Common sense dictates you would realize when you got killed or blown up. Furthermore, how can the party members give the ones who will fight Necron in the final fight the strength and life energy TO fight if they're already dead?

I dunno, it works for the what, 4 or 5 RPGs I've played that have similar concepts. Dude dies, wakes up in death land, big baddie comes, dude goes 'Oh shit', fights him, comes back to life (somehow), and everyone goes 'Dude, you were dead'. Dude goes 'Shit's crazy.'

Come to think of it, almost every entertainment medium I have ever seen has at least one work with similar event to this!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, but it doesn't work for FFIX because it completely violates and contradicts the elements of the narrative and how death and life works. If they would've died, their spirit energy would've passed on and went to the crystal. If the crystal was shattered, then existence would've been over. There would've been SOME type of consequence from the entire summation of existence's memories and life force being brutally shattered by an Ultima spell.

Yet we see nothing. The heroes say nothing about existence being destroyed, or their lives being ended by Kuja. They don't even remark about somehow miraculously being returned to life. That makes no fucking sense in terms of the storyline OR in terms of good expositional story writing.

If FFIX doesn't show the crystal shattering, doesn't show the heroes dying, and existence is a-okay, doesn't that mean the crystal didn't shatter? It's a leap in logic with no evidence at all. Occam's Razor dude. The simplest explanation is best. Go by what FFIX shows and it'll make sense.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hey, I'm not saying I believe it. Just playing Devil's Advocate here. However, is there really any CONCRETE logical reason why they ended up there, what Necron is, why did Kuja teleport them, etc? Remember, the theory I'm talking about states that they died, not that Kuka shattered the Crystal.

The heroes say nothing about existence being destroyed, or their lives being ended by Kuja. They don't even remark about somehow miraculously being returned to life. That makes no fucking sense in terms of the storyline OR in terms of good expositional story writing.

Hey, that's not really fair to say. Many stories have been using that convention for years. The logic being is that in a situation like that, you wouldn't be aware that you died. If you got ran over by a car, and I mean fucking DECKED by an 18 wheeler, and you 'woke up' in a garden with a temple outside or some shit, you wouldn't know if you died and were in an afterlife or if you were in some coma induced dream. From your perspective, you wouldn't and couldn't really know the difference.

Hell, it happens in real life!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't really care what other stories have done. We're talking about the specific game, FFIX. Which has its rules regarding the nature of spirit energy, life, and death. It doesn't make sense no matter how many other stories have managed to pull it off. The plot does not give any indication whatsoever that Kuja killed them and then brought them back to life.

They were merely blasted away to somewhere else in the Crystal World when Necron appeared. It's pretty simple and I don't understand why these strange assumptions are being asserted to try and make sense of what was essentially, a pretty basic depiction of events. Party got nuked and blown away somewhere else. Necron appeared. They beat it, and then got teleported. The end.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Jesus Christ! Calm down, man, I've already said I don't even believe it myself, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, you know, to better understand an opposing theory, even if I don't believe it myself.

I just commented that I thought it was unfair to say that it's poor exposition in general, considering it's quite an old storytelling convention, and it's not bad expositional story writing even if it doesn't fit FF9's story itself.

And besides man, as it stands there really isn't too strong of an indication of exactly what happened. 'Blasted away' to a totally different area? Another dimension? That doesn't make much sense either. We don't even know what Necron is. The whole segment was poorly expositioned.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I am calm, I'm just stating a fact. It's irrelevant what another story has done, if we're talking about FFIX. That's like saying because Aerith died in FFVII, there's a good chance of her coming back because lots of fantasy stories have characters who sacrificed themself return because of their selfless deed. Yeah...that's true. But that doesn't fit at all with FFVII.

It'd be poor exposition because it'd have no place in FFIX. It fits like a right shoe on a left foot thats two sizes too small. That shoe might fit on another foot, but not on this one.

Why is it so hard to get what happened in FFIX? I've *never* heard people make up this amount of stuff for FFVII when Sephiroth suddenly metamorphed and emerged as Safer Sephiroth when the screen went black after Bizarro Sephiroth's defeat. No one's making up fanciful theories of the characters suddenly being warped to heaven or another planet to fight Sephiroth.

The Crystal World is a world. It's pretty conceivable that there are different areas to it. Look at the area you fight Deathguise. It doesn't really match the area where they confronted Kuja, but you don't hear people trying to theorize that they fought Deathguise in another dimension, do you? It's just so illogical.

Kuja blasted them from the location of the fight and into another ajacent area of the Crystal World. Necron emerged and decided to throw down.

And we do know who Necron is. Necron is the summation of death and non-existence. He's a god. That's what the FFIX Ultimania and FF 20th Anniversary calls him.

YES! It really is just that simple!

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I am calm, I'm just stating a fact.

It just sounds like you're calmly attacking me. The internet doesn't have inflection of voice, so I can only go by words, and it just seemed like...you're...you're hurting me, Mako...

It's irrelevant what another story has done, if we're talking about FFIX. That's like saying because Aerith died in FFVII, there's a good chance of her coming back because lots of fantasy stories have characters who sacrificed themself return because of their selfless deed. Yeah...that's true. But that doesn't fit at all with FFVII.

It'd be poor exposition because it'd have no place in FFIX. It fits like a right shoe on a left foot thats two sizes too small. That shoe might fit on another foot, but not on this one.

I thought you were saying that plot convention was poor in general, as in poor in all stories.

Why is it so hard to get what happened in FFIX? I've *never* heard people make up this amount of stuff for FFVII when Sephiroth suddenly metamorphed and emerged as Safer Sephiroth when the screen went black after Bizarro Sephiroth's defeat. No one's making up fanciful theories of the characters suddenly being warped to heaven or another planet to fight Sephiroth.

From an exposition and literary point of view, the story just seemed to make a point of them being in a different place. I know that many RPG's have battles in WHOA CRAZY looking unreal places.

Kuja blasted them from the location of the fight and into another ajacent area of the Crystal World. Necron emerged and decided to throw down.

Check out the fight on Youtube. Kuja used Ultima, the party got blasted off their feet, fell back down to the ground, and disappeared.

And we do know who Necron is. Necron is the summation of death and non-existence. He's a god. That's what the FFIX Ultimania and FF 20th Anniversary calls him.

Ah, okay, I've learned something new. Still, it's my opinion that he was thrown in very poorly in the game, but that's just my unrelated opinion.

Like I said Mako, I'm not trying to change your opinion, but I'm just asking you to look at it a different way, from an opposing point of view. I never really like to state 'I don't understand why people think X way' because it tends to leave me closed minded. I always like to keep myself empathetic to opposing points of view so I can understand what brought them to it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL, no I'm not trying to hurt you dude, I'm just trying to succinctly destroy your point.

No no, I'm not saying it's poor in general. It works where it works and can be good. But in FFIX, it'd make as much sense as Ozma being revealed to be Queen Bhrane back from the grave looking for revenge. After all, both are huge and round and full of hate and malice.

And yeah, the final battle took place but who says its another dimension or they died? Look at the arena Deathguise is fought in. Where the hell do you even see a place like that in the map for the Crystal World, specifically...before you confront Kuja. Somehow..during the battle transition, they must've leaped to another area to fight the giant demon, and then leaped back to Kuja. That's all.

And yeah I saw the fight. Who knows. Maybe the spell also destroyed the supporting crystal pillar they were on and they fell to a lower level area of the crystal world. The point being, is, is that its a leap in logic to just assume that because the battle arena changed, they're somehow no longer in the same world.

And yeah. He was thrown in, in a very piss-poor way. But it isn't that complicated. He's just a shoe-horned final boss because for some reason, they didn't feel Kuja's constant spammage of Flare Star and Holy wasn't "epic" enough for a final confrontation.

It just...is really that simple.

And here is all that's ever been said on Necron, ever by the creators.

http://forums.thelifestream.net/active-projects/ff-20th-anniv-ultimania-characters/30/

He really is just a random fucking death god/monster/thing that decided "HAY GUIZ!! I SAW KUJA TRY TO END EXISTENCE SO LETS FIGHT~~<3333"

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Manti link=topic=544.msg23670#msg23670 date=1235676137]curiousACfan, sorry to impose on you again, but there's something that's always been on my mind, since completing FFIX. Basically, the scene after you've defeated Necron on the Red Rose, where Mikoto says she can "hear him" (presumably Zidane?) when everyone else thinks the party's dead - what was she meaning? Does Mikoto have some emphatic abilities, or can Genomes sense each other (from Kuja and Zidane's reactions to each other, I think not).
[/quote]

It was actually Kuja's voice she heard according to Beatrix's personal timeline in the Ultimania. As for why ... well, it's Kuja. I don't think we really need more explanation than that.


As for Necron, guys, even Japanese players from what I've seen found his inclusion to be a "wtf" kind of event. The general consensus I've seen on Japanese forums and such is that a being who embodies death or nothingness might be appropriate thematically for the final boss, but he breaks the flow of the story and seems out of place with what's been established prior.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23819#msg23819 date=1235692138]And we do know who Necron is. Necron is the summation of death and non-existence. He's a god. That's what the FFIX Ultimania and FF 20th Anniversary calls him.[/quote]

IX's Ultimania doesn't say anything about him, actually. And your link to hitoshura's translation from that other one doesn't seem to call him a god. Just "a being." Pretty vague.

But wasn't there another 20th Anniversary Ultimania that was supposed to go into more detail on the stories?

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg23815#msg23815 date=1235691133]The plot does not give any indication whatsoever that Kuja killed them and then brought them back to life.[/quote]

Maybe they were just blasted away, but I think it bears pointing out that when Kuja blasted them with Ultima on Terra, their bodies remained on screen until it faded to white. When he did it in Crystal World, their bodies vanished.

There's also the deal with Necron's battleground being called "Hill of Despair" and all the wailing in the background. It seems like they were dead to me too.

Which is one reason why the Necron=Iifa Tree idea always made so much sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just thought the wailing was the music.

I mean the wailing in the background music of the area is hardly indicative to the plot of the story or the location being the afterlife. I mean, that's a bit of circular logic. The wailing is because its the afterlife, and the proof that its the afterlife is the wailing. That doesn't make sense. And if the characters were suddenly thrust into the world of the dead, wouldn't they say something? Wouldn't they comment on hearing these voices? None of the characters even comment on it.

It's just background music. I mean, no one postulates that a choir of angels are singing "One Winged Angel" during the final battle against Sephiroth, do they?

And its called "The Hill of Despair." When does despair = death? I just thought it was just a name for a hill. Again, that's another random shot in the dark. Maybe if the hill was called "The Hill of the Dead" or something that'd fly but...no.

And again, you need to explain to me how none of the characters comment on their death, resurrection, or surprise that Kuja somehow reconstructed their dead bodies, brought them back to life, and teleported them out of Memoria all at the exact same time. If Kuja had that kind of power, then certainly he'd be able to somehow keep himself from dying. I mean, really.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Mako, I don't think anyone thought that Kuja brings them back to life. If anything, the 'theory' counts on Necron being the one to reverse their 'theoretical' deaths after his defeat. He is the god of death or something like that, no?

Like I said Mako, it helps if you let go of your mind, and try to think of the theory from the other person's perspective to gain an understanding from it.

 

[Max Payne]

Ok, so can anyone tell me exactly what the fuck Neron is, and why it randomly showed up at the end?

I'm too tired to look through the thread.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But how does a monster thats born from the fear of death somehow grant you life if you kill it? Where in any of the materials or the game does that postulation even come from? What is it based on?

I mean, seriously, do you know how bizarre and baseless that claim is? As curiousACfan just pointed out, he's not a god. That was my mistake in describing him. Here's what his profile says from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania.

Eternal Darkness [Necron]
Monster created by fear of death

A being awoken by the fear, despair, and hated of Kuja, who discovered, with the fulfillment of his ambition near, that he had little time left to live. It rejects the cycle of life through the crystal and attempts to return every world, including Terra and Gaia, to nothing. The final enemy to confront Zidane's team.

A monster. He's just some opportunistic asshole who popped out of nowhere to kill you. Why would killing him bring you back to life? Wtf? Why would he even do that? And where does it show this?

I'm not going to let go of my mind if it means opening it up to baseless conclusions drawn from zero objective evidence from the game or materials.

@Dacon

Read the profile that's in mah post

 

[Cat Rage Room]

A monster. He's just some opportunistic asshole who popped out of nowhere to kill you. Why would killing him bring you back to life? Wtf? Why would he even do that? And where does it show this?

Well, that description changes everything. I thought he was the God of Death. I didn't know he was just some jackass.

I'm not going to let go of my mind if it means opening it up to baseless conclusions drawn from zero objective evidence from the game or materials.

Well, I'll be honest with you, if it wasn't from that translation up there, you, me, and pretty much everyone else would have little choice than to draw baseless conclusions because the game itself shows us NOTHING about Necron or the circumstances around the fight.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I understand the lack of information on Necron is frustrating and kinda makes you want to think of some sort of tie in to justify him being there.

But remember, the simplest explanation is sometimes best.

Like you said, he's just some jackass out of nowhere wanting to tear some existential ass. He literally has no rhyme, reason, or history. He is just THERE. I cannot even fathom why they bothered to include him into the game, save for maybe not wanting to make Kuja some misshapen monster like all other FF bosses, and give the party a chance to fight something more epic than a red furry monkey lady-man floating in the air.

I mean, hell Zidane's reaction to Necron's sudden appearance pretty much mirror's the players. Surprise, confusion, and finally just pure anger with the desire to kick his ass.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Although I had to wonder how such a powerful being as Necron came about just because of Kuja's hatred and negative feelings. I didn't really get how that would work, until I thought; 'oh yeah, a guy like this kinda exists already.'