FFIX....Another Ultimania project?

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Dark and Divine link=topic=544.msg24034#msg24034 date=1235761510]
[quote author=curiousACfan link=topic=544.msg24030#msg24030 date=1235759103]

No need to apologize. I disagree with you too. XD[/quote]

Then you don't mind the fact that i disagree with you again! [/quote]

Nope.

He created the bodies of the Genomes to receive the souls of Terra's people, though. He even made Kuja, Zidane and Mikoto and gave them souls. That's making a body and sticking a soul in it, right?

Indeed, but that's different from reviving someone.

To create Genomes, he had to create a body and put a soul in it, like you said, but he couldn't just cast a magic spell and revive someone.

Probably not a spell, but if he could make a body and then stick a soul in it, there was at least that precedent for creating living bodies and giving them souls (which was my concern in bringing him up).

And if he could trap specific souls (like with the Invincible), then I wouldn't be surprised at all if he could revive someone. I mean, if he has the means to capture individual souls, and the means to stick souls in new bodies ... well, why not?

I realize that he doesn't actually do it at any point, but he was apparently waiting until the assimilation finished to bring Terra's people back.

Anyway, that matter isn't so important now that I remembered the 4 Chaoses coming back.

Maybe he fell in the Hill of Despair too, teleported Zidane and the others and tried to teleport himslef too, but he was too weak to teleport himslef that far and only managed to teleport to inside the Iifa Tree.

Possible, but no more likely, I think, than this other possibility. As I've said, I'm not out to prove anything more than that all of these ideas are equally valid.

Anyway, i don't think that he could acess to the Crystal being so far from it.

Like, I said, maybe he wasn't far from it at all. He could have gone back to it for all we know. He didn't fall straight from the fight in Crystal World to the bottom of the tree, so he did something in the meantime. What he did is unknown.

Touche regarding the Kuja being able to create life point, curiousACfan. I forgot about that. However, he did that with outside help, did he not? He used the power of the crystal, didn't he?

Yep, and if he could do it once, surely he could do it again.

I can't believe we'd both forgotten about that.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg24042#msg24042 date=1235763325]But you do raise some pretty good points with that. But I'd say the questions of how they were all flung neatly together into that other universe could just be explained by the plot necessitating the party be together to face off Necron XD[/quote]

I like my idea better. XD It's less Necron-ish.

I'd prefer to think that if a dimensional warp opened under them, it just deposited them all in the same spot, no matter where they were when they fell through it. No cosmic ink blot-type plot trap.

As for the Iifa tree, I stated that since Gaia and Terra occupy the same space, with the Iifa tree's roots going into Terra as well, the destruction of Terra caused a cataclysmic chain reaction that killed the Iifa tree as well.

Yeah, I understood what you were saying. I'm just saying that isn't what Kuja said. He was talking about the assimilation when he spoke of a cataclysm that would destroy Gaia:

"You honestly think you can beat me? Even if you do, Gaia's already doomed. Its assimilation by Terra has begun, and the Iifa Tree will incite a cataclysmic destruction of Gaia."

You could still be right, of course, but you cited Kuja. I just wanted to clarify what he'd said in case you were getting something mixed up while formulating that idea.

 

[Dark and Divine]

[quote author=curiousACfan link=topic=544.msg24047#msg24047 date=1235766485]
Probably not a spell, but if he could make a body and then stick a soul in it, there was at least that precedent for creating living bodies and giving them souls (which was my concern in bringing him up).

And if he could trap specific souls (like with the Invincible), then I wouldn't be surprised at all if he could revive someone. I mean, if he has the means to capture individual souls, and the means to stick souls in new bodies ... well, why not?[/quote]

You got a point there! And that is somewhat similar to the process Sephiroth used to revive himself in AC (get Jenova's remains to create a new body to put his spirit on).

Like, I said, maybe he wasn't far from it at all. He could have gone back to it for all we know. He didn't fall straight from the fight in Crystal World to the bottom of the tree, so he did something in the meantime. What he did is unknown.

Well, it's just my opinion, but i think that Kuja had to be as close as he was when we met in the Crystal World in order to link himself to it.

But like you said, there's no wrong assumptions about it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh okay, my memory was fuzzy of what exactly Kuja said. Thanks for the clarification.

I'd prefer to think that if a dimensional warp opened under them, it just deposited them all in the same spot, no matter where they were when they fell through it. No cosmic ink blot-type plot trap.

That does make sense, too.

Like, I said, maybe he wasn't far from it at all. He could have gone back to it for all we know. He didn't fall straight from the fight in Crystal World to the bottom of the tree, so he did something in the meantime. What he did is unknown.

Ahh, but how would Kuja know that Zidane and the others needed to get out of that dimension with Necron in the first place? How would he have known to have teleported them out of there right at his defeat? I'm thinking that somehow Kuja was in that space as well with them. It'd make more sense than him still being in the Crystal World and somehow intuitively knowing that at that perfect time, Zidane and the others were finished and needed to go home.

As for Garland, you raise some interesting points but I don't think the construction and creation of artificial life forms (Genomes) automatically shows Garland has the ability to raise the dead.

I don't think Garland has each individual soul of every individual person from Terra neatly tucked away and ready to go into a new body so they can live out their lives right where they left off before the cataclysm happened. I think Garland just has the collective spirit energy of the planet tucked away and ready to be slipped into Gaia so a new generation of Terran's with the collective thoughts, memories, etc would be born into the already waiting bodies of the Genomes.

I mean, yeah that does kinda sound like him playing god but...I don't think he could literally bring Garnet back to life if she died, by just putting her spirit energy in a Genome body. But then again who knows, right?

I never really gave much thought to it until now, but how is it that Kuja just knew how to play with the Crystal and just pull out random enemies from it and then just bring them back again?

....And now I just had the most bizarre thought. You know how those Crystal copies of the Four Fiends wander around the Crystal World? Don't they remind you of another set of crystal copies from a certain PSP Final Fantasy fighting game?

 

[Tetsujin]

Ahh, but how would Kuja know that Zidane and the others needed to get out of that dimension with Necron in the first place? How would he have known to have teleported them out of there right at his defeat? I'm thinking that somehow Kuja was in that space as well with them. It'd make more sense than him still being in the Crystal World and somehow intuitively knowing that at that perfect time, Zidane and the others were finished and needed to go home.

Dunno man, he was communicating telepathically with Zidane towards the end. He might have used that ability to sense whether they were done or not.

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Dark and Divine link=topic=544.msg24049#msg24049 date=1235767106]You got a point there! And that is somewhat similar to the process Sephiroth used to revive himself in AC (get Jenova's remains to create a new body to put his spirit on).[/quote]

Hadn't thought of that, but you're right.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg24058#msg24058 date=1235767993]Ahh, but how would Kuja know that Zidane and the others needed to get out of that dimension with Necron in the first place? How would he have known to have teleported them out of there right at his defeat?[/quote]

I'm not terribly concerned with that detail, to be honest. If Tetsujin's telepathy explanation isn't enough, then surely the use of the crystal would be.

I mean, since this idea calls for him using it anyway, then couldn't he just see what they were doing when he used it to locate their souls?

While we're on this subject, by the way, doesn't it seem like Necron's destruction coincided with Memoria's? There's got to be something there.

Of course, it could be as simple as the place blew up when Kuja teleported out. He was the one who made it, after all.

As for Garland, you raise some interesting points but I don't think the construction and creation of artificial life forms (Genomes) automatically shows Garland has the ability to raise the dead.

I don't think Garland has each individual soul of every individual person from Terra neatly tucked away and ready to go into a new body so they can live out their lives right where they left off before the cataclysm happened.

I don't think so either (he tried letting Terra's souls overwhelm Gaia's before he ever tried the Genome idea, after all), but I'm just speaking hypothetically. If he can stick spirit energy in a body and make it work, and he can capture specific spirits, then I'd epxect him to be able to stick a specific spirit in a Genome, perhaps moments after death.

I never really gave much thought to it until now, but how is it that Kuja just knew how to play with the Crystal and just pull out random enemies from it and then just bring them back again?

Don't think about details like that too much.

....And now I just had the most bizarre thought. You know how those Crystal copies of the Four Fiends wander around the Crystal World? Don't they remind you of another set of crystal copies from a certain PSP Final Fantasy fighting game?

They definitely do. That was my first thought when I saw them. I assume it's probably a reference to the crystal versions of the Chaoses. I mean, they're called Chaoses for crying out loud, and Chaos is the creator of the imitations in Dissidia.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not terribly concerned with that detail, to be honest. If Tetsujin's telepathy explanation isn't enough, then surely the use of the crystal would be.

LOL I guess that explanation works too.

While we're on this subject, by the way, doesn't it seem like Necron's destruction coincided with Memoria's? There's got to be something there.

Of course, it could be as simple as the place blew up when Kuja teleported out. He was the one who made it, after all.

I'm thinking Kuja's the real cause of Memoria since he was its creator.

Just a quick question. Kuja *did* create Memoria using the master Crystal right?

I don't think so either (he tried letting Terra's souls overwhelm Gaia's before he ever tried the Genome idea, after all), but I'm just speaking hypothetically. If he can stick spirit energy in a body and make it work, and he can capture specific spirits, then I'd epxect him to be able to stick a specific spirit in a Genome, perhaps moments after death.

Hmm..yeah I suppose he could. Terran technology really is advanced isn't it?

Don't think about details like that too much.

LOL it just seems strange that the first thing Kuja would do when he got to it was just play around with it and not just bash it against the ground. I mean, he took to playing with the source of existence pretty easy for someone who meant to destroy it.

They definitely do. That was my first thought when I saw them. I assume it's probably a reference to the crystal versions of the Chaoses. I mean, they're called Chaoses for crying out loud, and Chaos is the creator of the imitations in Dissidia.

I wonder how those crystal imitations are made in Dissidia?

Shantotto should really get off her ass and finish researching those things.

And...on a totally unrelated note. Why the fuck does Shantotto turn into a fucking doll when she's defeated in Dissidia? Is that like a gag where she instantaneously substitutes a doll (ala Naruto) before you can see her suffer defeat, or is it a "Ha! That wasn't the real Shantotto you beat so don't feel too happy!" sorta thing? XD

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg24105#msg24105 date=1235773023]I'm thinking Kuja's the real cause of Memoria since he was its creator.

Just a quick question. Kuja *did* create Memoria using the master Crystal right?[/quote]

My guess is he made it with Mist since it's above the Iifa Tree, aware that the memories of souls would serve as a gateway to the crystal.

Let me see what I can find in the Ultimania.

[20 minutes later] It says Memoria was made from the "memory of all life" (?????????), so I'm not sure. I think the Mist must be what got Kuja to the crystal, but, yeah, the crystal must have influenced the way the place looked when Zidane's team went through.

LOL it just seems strange that the first thing Kuja would do when he got to it was just play around with it and not just bash it against the ground. I mean, he took to playing with the source of existence pretty easy for someone who meant to destroy it.

Strange indeed. If he didn't expect the team to beat the Chaoses, why'd he wait so long to try breaking the crystal?

Other than the need for his plot to fail, of course.

Maybe it was just too tempting to pass up.

I wonder how those crystal imitations are made in Dissidia?

Shantotto should really get off her ass and finish researching those things.

And...on a totally unrelated note. Why the fuck does Shantotto turn into a fucking doll when she's defeated in Dissidia? Is that like a gag where she instantaneously substitutes a doll (ala Naruto) before you can see her suffer defeat, or is it a "Ha! That wasn't the real Shantotto you beat so don't feel too happy!" sorta thing? XD

I honestly have no idea what the answers are to any of that. XD



By the way, if you're still reading this, Kariya, I thought you'd be interested to know that the game uses another term for the teleporters in addition to "transfer gates" (?????). It also uses "warp gates" (??????) a couple of times, though it seems to use the two terms interchangably.

Also, I thought all of you may be interested in what the "angel of death" term was in the Japanese version. It was shinigami (??). If you've watched Bleach or Death Note, you're familiar with the term. "Death god," basically. "Angel of death" would be the best localization.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Strange indeed. If he didn't expect the team to beat the Chaoses, why'd he wait so long to try breaking the crystal?

Other than the need for his plot to fail, of course.

Maybe it was just too tempting to pass up.

Because being a thematic douche is a part of his personality, and what's more thematic than a final showdown between two adversaries after the protagonist fought his way through hell and back?

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=544.msg24203#msg24203 date=1235782935]

Strange indeed. If he didn't expect the team to beat the Chaoses, why'd he wait so long to try breaking the crystal?

Other than the need for his plot to fail, of course.

Maybe it was just too tempting to pass up.

Because being a thematic douche is a part of his personality, and what's more thematic than a final showdown between two adversaries after the protagonist fought his way through hell and back?[/quote]

I see your point. He wasn't going to break the crystal until he'd killed Zidane, either directly or indirectly.


By the way, guys, I was just doing some more thinking about Necron. It's been speculated before that he may have had a connection to the Iifa Tree because his face looks a lot like the faces in Oeilvert. It's not exact, obviously, but I can see the similarities.

Well, I think I just found something else that connects him to Terra designs. The inside of that coliseum of his has eyes along the walls. You can see them best during his defeat animation, as they close one by one in a closeup.

Now, where else have we seen eyes like those? The Invincible. A portal room in Pandemonium. And, of course, there's eye-like features on the Iifa Tree itself (the design picture in the Ultimania indicates that this was deliberate).

Now, none of this proof, but ... taking it all together I think I've moved away from devil's advocate to plain advocate.

I mean, I still think all the ideas are equally valid, but this one just seems to really work nicely to me. It does give the guy a reason to be there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well if Necron was connected to the Iifa Tree, wouldn't they have said something about him in the whole dissection of it?

And wouldn't the Soulcage, be the creature that's the conscious form of the Iifa Tree?

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=544.msg24220#msg24220 date=1235791987]
Well if Necron was connected to the Iifa Tree, wouldn't they have said something about him in the whole dissection of it?[/quote]

Well, they arguably could have, albeit by another name.
Ultimania does talk about the Soul Divider being attached to the tree long after it was already in place.

Of course, I thought we'd moved past looking for what the makers of the game had to say about Necron. They pretty obviously didn't have a clue what the hell he is, so it's up to us.

We're just looking for ideas that work, right?

And wouldn't the Soulcage, be the creature that's the conscious form of the Iifa Tree?

Soulcage wasn't the Soul Divider, no. Soulcage just seemed to be the creature responsible for the disposal of the Mist, not the most important work. Garland didn't even really care about him when Zidane brought up the subject on Terra, remember?

He was like "Oh, you stopped the Mist. Big deal. The Soul Divider is still there. That's the true purpose of the tree."

EDIT: I thought it would be more helpful if I posted the actual dialogue:

Garland: "You saw it with your own eyes. You saw the Iifa Tree and the Mist it emits. The role of the Iifa Tree is that of Soul Divider. The Mist you see comprises the stagnant souls of Gaia..."

Zidane: "Oh yeah? But we stopped the Mist! So much for that!"

Garland: "All you saw was the back of the tree... Even now, the Iifa Tree blocks the flow of Gaia's souls, while it lets those of Terra flow freely."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahhh, I thought the Iifa Tree's Soul Cage was the Soul Divider. I mean it does say its been around for thousands of years and all. But okay.

And well, I honestly don't think Necron is really anything but a big lipped alligator. XD

I mean it'd be nice if he was connected to the Iifa Tree and served some actual purpose to the plot but the sad truth is, is that they just thought "HEY! Let's make this final fight epic! Put in a cool super boss!" and yeah. Cue Necron

I mean that's just FFIX's only weakness. The ending battle just kinda got screwy and well..yeah

 

[curiousACfan]

Yeah. I know.

But it sounds good.

...I like it.

...Fucking alligator.


EDIT: You know what, fuck the truth. Looking at the story this way removes that one major flaw in FFIX, and there's nothing that says we can't do it. So fuck it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL, it really is FFIX's only one glaring flaw isn't it?

FFIX's ending is a really good one, it just got really weird during that final battle. I wonder if the director says anything about that? It just seems so...random.

 

[mohgle]

^ Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, a last boss who was never mentioned at all in the game, it just seems like they added it in at last minute...