FFVII Character Details, Easter Eggs, and General What-the-fuckery

[tibiquera]

That's a very logical take, but then in the OG, Cloud was in a horrible state, left alone in the train station and then when Tifa finds him, he all of a sudden starts talking normally. That bit still makes no sense to me. That's why I said the only thing I can think of is Tifa's presence awakening something inside Cloud, probably driven by Jenova, that makes him get his consciousness back. At least to me, it did seem to be a rather sudden recovery.

 

[Ite]

Agreed, it is rather sudden. I guess Jenova does quick work once she finds a weak spot.

 

[Roger]

Really? I didn't know that...

My point was that CC's version of the scene did not exist. And, unless you're about to accuse SE of forethought, that suggests that even the original scene's mourning could lead one to believe he had some lucidity in that moment. Minor point anyway.

I'm saying they started expanding Zack's character at Cloud's cost in AC, and used what they threw in for AC in CC.

Cloud was cognizant during the scene in the OG. He REMEMBERS it later, for fuck's sake. He just wasn't coherent.
Chalk it up to a brief moment of lucidity, which then deteriorates as he heads into Midgar, leading to being found conked out in the trainyard.

Yeah he remembers, he remembers the escape from the Shinra Manor too, he remember Zack telling him the whole story. The difference is he could move, him standing up and making Zack promises to live out both their livs, which AC and CC is yet another leap that CC and AC make after which he goes back to complete comatose again, when the plot wants to do the whole thing over again with Tifa.

Also, expecting Cloud to be exactly Zack because of the living legacy thing is unreasonable. He's still a mix of four or so influences, Zack among them, but also Cloud's own idea of what a cool cocky Soldier would be like.

I'm not saying he should EXACTLY like Zack. I'm saying you could not BE further removed from Zack's personality then Cloud's SOLDIER persona.

And you know that was fine. Cloud being a worse character witness for what Zack like then Hojo is a tough pill for me to swallow but whatever. But that's not the issue here, in CC's interpretation Jenova actually took memories and traits from Zack's brain upon which Cloud's persona was at least partly based.

The condescending, asexual, cold and pitiable persona that UO describes is more greatly influenced by Zack then we needed to believe in VII. That seems bad to me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tifa's memories are also his memories after all, Sephiroth wasn't telling the whole truth in the Whirlwind Maze, methinks. Considering that Train Graveyard scene happens while Cloud is missing, after Tifa has been told a half-truth about Cloud's 'composition', I don't take the whole 'absorbing Tifa's memories' thing too seriously.

For what it's worth, the Ultimania Omega does say on pg. 211 that the JENOVA cells inside Cloud gleaned Tifa's memories of Cloud from her mind and combined what they saw with Cloud's own ideal view of himself.

I'm not saying he should EXACTLY like Zack. I'm saying you could not BE further removed from Zack's personality then Cloud's SOLDIER persona.

And you know that was fine. Cloud being a worse character witness for what Zack like then Hojo is a tough pill for me to swallow but whatever. But that's not the issue here, in CC's interpretation Jenova actually took memories and traits from Zack's brain upon which Cloud's persona was at least partly based.

The condescending, asexual, cold and pitiable persona that UO describes is more greatly influenced by Zack then we needed to believe in VII. That seems bad to me.

I never thought CC implied Cloud was any less a mixture of traits from Zack, memories from Tifa, and Cloud's own idealized version of himself than he'd been presented as in the original game. And I'm usually the one to rail against CC the hardest.

That being said, I do think he was too lucid and his speech too coherent in CC's ending for this to be prior to the grunting, mumbling heap he is when Tifa finds him at the train station.



I'm surprised, by the way, to see that so many attribute a deliberate participation to JENOVA in all this. I always thought the fashioning of Cloud's false persona through the use of JENOVA's cells was an act of his subconscious fighting for survival of the body. There's a couple of lines in his 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile that I think alludes to this as well:

-"At first he calls himself 'ex-SOLDIER, 1st Class', and affects a condescending attitude towards the people around him, but this is a false pretence born from Cloud’s own desires."
-"While being tended to by a station worker in the Sector 7 Slum train station, he was reunited with Tifa, and using the abilities of Jenova’s cells formed a new personality."

 

[Elisa Maza]

To add to the quotes...

I don't remember the source (I remember it was official, though), but there is a line saying that Cloud created that persona "to protect himself". I always thought that Cloud himself subconsciously made his mind a mess by using JENOVA, so he could cope with his life up until that point. He had failed in anything: to save Tifa from the fall, to be a SOLDIER, to save his hometown and Tifa from Sephiroth (he did think her dead), he lost his friend as Zack tried to save him... he couldn't cope, so he did what he did: he never lost any friend, because there was no friend to begin with and he succeeded in becoming a SOLDIER, while the failure that motivated him to join in the first place was buried.

And that's my two cents about this.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

For what it's worth, the Ultimania Omega does say on pg. 211 that the JENOVA cells inside Cloud gleaned Tifa's memories of Cloud from her mind and combined what they saw with Cloud's own ideal view of himself.

Does this mean that Jenova - or her cells, acting in accordance with the instinct of their chemistry - is/are unable to perceive the truth of a soul, but can only perceive the (possibly erroneous) perceptions of others?

I never thought CC implied Cloud was any less a mixture of traits from Zack, memories from Tifa, and Cloud's own idealized version of himself than he'd been presented as in the original game. And I'm usually the one to rail against CC the hardest.

I'm sure this has been said already, but Zack was not such a nice guy in the OG. He was a womaniser; he was willing to do anything for money; he wasn't coming back to Midgar to see Aerith, and although he thought at first of trying to crash at her house, decided against it; their relationship was not a great love.

A while back I said on these boards that the thing which surprised me the most about CC was the fact that Zack and Cloud are not best friends in that game. I was roundly told that I was wrong and had completely misunderstood their relationship. However... I don't think Zack drags Cloud's ass around the world because Cloud is his closest friend, but because he's constitutionally incapable of abandoning a buddy who needs him. I sometimes imagine him in a variant death scene, lying there, realising it's all over, and looking at Cloud and thinking, 'Shit, is this it? Is this what my life, my ambition, my dreams and honour, all those battles, and all my talent and good looks and charm, boils down to? You?' I think OG Zack could have felt something like that.

I'm surprised, by the way, to see that so many attribute a deliberate participation to JENOVA in all this. I always thought the fashioning of Cloud's false persona through the use of JENOVA's cells was an act of his subconscious fighting for survival of the body. There's a couple of lines in his 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile that I think alludes to this as well:

-"At first he calls himself 'ex-SOLDIER, 1st Class', and affects a condescending attitude towards the people around him, but this is a false pretence born from Cloud’s own desires."
-"While being tended to by a station worker in the Sector 7 Slum train station, he was reunited with Tifa, and using the abilities of Jenova’s cells formed a new personality."

Yet more ambiguity. Who's doing this to Cloud: Jenova, Sephiroth, or himself?

 

[Masamune]

Because while not limited to the two of them, Cloud takes the idea of living on for Zack a lot more seriously than most.

Not in the original game, he doesn't. The subsequent bromance between Cloud & Zack is all the Compilation's own making.

What CC really added to the dynamic was Zack putting that idea in Cloud's head, where in the OG he went yabbo on his own.

Which was totally unnecessary. It was already established what happened to Cloud's mind in regards to Jenova.

Actually, it's really not like that at all. Now, if Priscilla began emulating Cloud, then you'd have a point about Priscilla being his living legacy.

Really? Surely the terms of the living legacy is someone who is living proof of someone else. True, I was being facetious, but it still highlights how tenuous it is.

Of course, as part of his story, she is, as it stands, a PART of his legacy, but does not embody it.

As Zack was to Cloud, but he most certainly does not define Cloud's existence.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Does this mean that Jenova - or her cells, acting in accordance with the instinct of their chemistry - is/are unable to perceive the truth of a soul, but can only perceive the (possibly erroneous) perceptions of others?

I'd assume it could only glean what the person is able to recall.

I'm sure this has been said already, but Zack was not such a nice guy in the OG. He was a womaniser; he was willing to do anything for money; he wasn't coming back to Midgar to see Aerith, and although he thought at first of trying to crash at her house, decided against it; their relationship was not a great love.

I always thought Zack was still demonstrated as a good guy. He dragged Cloud halfway around the world, and died trying to fight off Shin-Ra soldiers to protect him when he could have just ran and left Cloud behind. He'd almost certainly have been able to save himself if he had.

That, and he's presented as your typical, cheerful shounen hero kind of guy. They're almost invariably good natured.

I also don't think it's fair to say he'd have done anything for money. He kind of had to become a "jack of all trades" at that point considering that Shin-Ra was gunning for him and getting a normal job would be impossible.

As for the womanizer point, that's never suggested by the original game. Aerith just says that he was a ladies man and really loved women. Not quite the same thing.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Clarification question:

Does Jenova/Sephiroth control every little thing Jenova cells do, or are the cells on "auto-pilot" until Sephiroth starts controlling them in the OG?

If they are on "auto-pilot" until Sephiroth starts contolling them, it seems to me that the cells could just be trying to help Cloud be able to function and they're not on anyone's "side" at all. That would explain why they make Cloud's memories into what he thinks his background should be like instead of what Tifa thinks his background is.

In any case, I don't think Sephiroth had anything to do with what Cloud's reconstructed memories are because it's not like Cloud's memories make in any easier for Sephrioth to make him go to the Norther Crater. After all, all the other clones got there just fine and they were in the same state Cloud was before Zack died.

 

[ForceStealer]

I always assumed the cells worked on instinct, just as Jenova herself seemed to. Not that she wasn't intelligent, but the planet-to-planet destruction seemed rather instinctual to me.

Yeah he remembers, he remembers the escape from the Shinra Manor too, he remember Zack telling him the whole story. The difference is he could move, him standing up and making Zack promises to live out both their livs, which AC and CC is yet another leap that CC and AC make after which he goes back to complete comatose again, when the plot wants to do the whole thing over again with Tifa.

I know a lot of other things have been said, but I don't have time at the moment - but Cloud could obviously move in the original, otherwise how could he have gotten to the train station? And I doubt he dragged himself the whole way because that would have taken a very long time.

ANd people come in out of a comas all the time. Especially considering immediately after he came out of it, he performed some strenuous activity (dragging a massive sword across the wasteland) I could see him slipping back into it. And like Tres said, while CC may have overdone the lucidity some, this IS what happened in the original. He had enough presence of mind to pick up the sword, mourn Zack's death, and get himself to Midgar which seems reasonably far away, only to be near-vegetative again when Tifa finds him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not in the original game, he doesn't. The subsequent bromance between Cloud & Zack is all the Compilation's own making.

To the level that it is now, yes. But the seeds were already there in the OG. Hauling a semiconscious Cloud across the world is damn buddy buddy if not outright bromantic.

Which was totally unnecessary. It was already established what happened to Cloud's mind in regards to Jenova.

And this doesn't really change any of that. It just adds a bit more reason why Zack was tossed into the mix when the Shell personality was constructed, it gives a bit more meat to Cloud's little wordless appeal towards the sky from the OG's flashback.

Really? Surely the terms of the living legacy is someone who is living proof of someone else. True, I was being facetious, but it still highlights how tenuous it is.

In this case, I think the better term would be 'testament to his deeds' rather than mere proof he existed, or at least that's what Zack probably meant. 'Live on, prove what I did wasn't meaningless' and all that jazz.
But I don't think that's all there is to why Cloud got a bit of Zack in the Jenova mixture, either.

As Zack was to Cloud, but he most certainly does not define Cloud's existence.

Never said he did or that it would have to. Zack doesn't have to define Cloud's existence for Cloud to embody Zack's legacy, to be that which he left behind to prove he made a difference.

 

[Roger]

And this doesn't really change any of that. It just adds a bit more reason why Zack was tossed into the mix when the Shell personality was constructed, it gives a bit more meat to Cloud's little wordless appeal towards the sky from the OG's flashback.

Why wouldn't it have been tossed in the mix? Would it have more sense back in the OG if it was like this.

Tifa: So, what have you been up too?
Cloud: I have absolutely no idea. I know this great story of what some other SOLDIER operative has been up though.

I don't think we needed more reason for why he used Zack's story. He didn't have anything else.

In this case, I think the better term would be 'testament to his deeds' rather than mere proof he existed, or at least that's what Zack probably meant. 'Live on, prove what I did wasn't meaningless' and all that jazz.

Considering he all but stated that he and Lazard were no less then heros for stoppng Genesis, i don't see why he needed Cloud for his efforts not to be meaningless.

But I don't think that's all there is to why Cloud got a bit of Zack in the Jenova mixture, either.

Care to explain what you mean?

 

[ForceStealer]

Considering he all but stated that he and Lazard were no less then heros for stoppng Genesis, i don't see why he needed Cloud for his efforts not to be meaningless.

But no one cares about Genesis

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why wouldn't it have been tossed in the mix? Would it have more sense back in the OG if it was like this.

Tifa: So, what have you been up too?
Cloud: I have absolutely no idea. I know this great story of what some other SOLDIER operative has been up though.

I'm not saying it wouldn't have, I'm saying we now know a little bit more about WHY he took these stories on as his own.

I don't think we needed more reason for why he used Zack's story. He didn't have anything else.

He did. Even taking out Zack, there's his memories, Tifa's memories, his own idea of what a cool SOLDIER should be like, and some nefarious meddling. Even in the OG, it seemed pretty obvious he took Zack's stories as part of himself because they made such a big impression on him, as did his death.

Considering he all but stated that he and Lazard were no less then heros for stoppng Genesis, i don't see why he needed Cloud for his efforts not to be meaningless.

He wouldn't need Cloud to make his efforts meaningful, but for Cloud to stand as testament that they were. And to make sure that his last actions, giving his life for Cloud, weren't in vain.
Of course, I'm pretty sure all Zack meant for Cloud to do was stay alive, to be the one friend of Zack's that he could save.

Care to explain what you mean?

I mean that Zack was a significant influence on Cloud for a number of reasons, just that the 'living legacy' thing might have driven the idea into Cloud's head more, made it easier for Jenova to headscrew him.

 

[Roger]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have, I'm saying we now know a little bit more about WHY he took these stories on as his own.

He did. Even taking out Zack, there's his memories, Tifa's memories, his own idea of what a cool SOLDIER should be like, and some nefarious meddling. Even in the OG, it seemed pretty obvious he took Zack's stories as part of himself because they made such a big impression on him, as did his death.

So which is it? Does the OG not give us enough to understand why he did it without CC or was it obvious already in the game. Can't really have both.

He wouldn't need Cloud to make his efforts meaningful, but for Cloud to stand as testament that they were. And to make sure that his last actions, giving his life for Cloud, weren't in vain.
Of course, I'm pretty sure all Zack meant for Cloud to do was stay alive, to be the one friend of Zack's that he could save.

That's my point! Genesis lived too! And Zack knew it. Zack saved him, he was alive and Zack thought that made him a hero. But Cloud is given the duty of living on as Zack's living legacy. There's something else there.

I mean that Zack was a significant influence on Cloud for a number of reasons, just that the 'living legacy' thing might have driven the idea into Cloud's head more, made it easier for Jenova to headscrew him.

See, I agree with this. That's what I felt the scene was about.

In the original game

Cloud is Mako addicted, comes upon Tifa and because he still wants to impress her Jenova uses that weakness and created a fake persona with a stronger will using whatever story, idea, memory of his or Tifa it could get it hands on. There, done.

In Crisis Core

Cloud, still in a somewhat Mako high, is told by Zack to be his living legacy, putting the idea in his head, which Jenova exploits and then runs into the one person in the world he wants to impress by being a SOLDIER First Class (Zack is a SOLDIER First Class).

It may not diminish the role that his desire to be Tifa's hero and all played in the original, but it does make it feel like more of a one in a bajilion coincidence if these two coincidental events had equal part in the creation of Disc 1 Cloud.

Moreover, this may not be the most impossible retcon (though it does lower my opinion of Cloud if we are truly meant to believe that he thought Zack was pretty much just like the guy we started playing FFVII with), but it is the one they had least cause in making. Okay, you make a game largely about Vincent, Zack, Hojo, the Turks, whoever, you need to make a few changes to give them a story, I can accept that. Not saying any single one of them did a good job but whatever. The truth behind Cloud's ffed up psyche, kind of was FFVII's story to tell. They should have laid off that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Am I the only one who didn't think Zack's "proof that I existed"/"living legacy" line had anything to do with Cloud's behavior on Disc 1, and just assumed that its influence didn't became tangible until after he got his memories back and started feeling guilty over people dying?

 

[Shademp]

Random note, I thought I'd post it here rather than the article... I wish I could bring Part 2 in my "Unused Text" article series to you all sooner but I am experiencing 'technical difficulties'. Don't worry, the article series will be completed and I will try my best to diminish the time windows between each entry. Just wanted to ease anyone who was wondering.

If anyone here knows methods for modding the PSX versions of FFVII, please let me know.

Am I the only one who didn't think Zack's "proof that I existed"/"living legacy" line had anything to do with Cloud's behavior on Disc 1, and just assumed that its influence didn't became tangible until after he got his memories back and started feeling guilty over people dying?

You are not alone. I think people are picking apart this "living legacy" stuff way too much. Yes, many of us feel betrayed by the scene and its dialogue because of the over the top cheesiness. But that doesn't lead me to think that it changes the reasons for why Cloud did and acted the way he did after Zack's death.

 

[ForceStealer]

I still can't see that there is anyway that line was written solely for bromance. The connection is just too obvious. Zack tells Cloud that Cloud's the proof that he existed and then Cloud takes the guy's backstory as his history in SOLDIER? That has to be intentional.

As for it not actually changing anything - that's entirely my point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I still can't see that there is anyway that line was written solely for bromance. The connection is just too obvious.

I think there's a huge ironic value to it, sure, but whenever I think of it, I'm thinking of the "proof that I existed" line more than the "living legacy" version. Of course, I saw the whole game's story twice in Japanese before I bothered with the English version, so that's why that sticks out in my mind more than the localization.

I find it to be an ironic line because Cloud forgets that Zack ever existed. I then think it doesn't become relevant until after Cloud got his memories back because that's when he's feeling like crap over trying to live out both their lives and because he told Zack he wouldn't forget what he lived and died for -- only to promptly have done just that.

I think it's only when thinking in terms of the English "living legacy" that you're bound to get caught up in tying it to Cloud's identity crisis.

But that's just my take.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So which is it? Does the OG not give us enough to understand why he did it without CC or was it obvious already in the game. Can't really have both.

I'm not saying the OG didn't give us enough, I just said CC gave us more by giving us the added lines.

That's my point! Genesis lived too! And Zack knew it. Zack saved him, he was alive and Zack thought that made him a hero. But Cloud is given the duty of living on as Zack's living legacy. There's something else there.

No, not duty. I don't think Zack was trying to put any duty on Cloud. It's an affirmation, not an order. Zack saved Genesis and could consider himself worthy of a hero title. But there is an idea that a Hero is only a hero so long as they act as such. Genesis meant Zack could consider himself a hero. Cloud meant Zack died one, and that it was worth it. At least that's what I take from his lines. Not 'prove that I existed' or 'prove that my deeds were worth it' but 'you ARE the proof. YOU are worth it.'

See, I agree with this. That's what I felt the scene was about.

In the original game

Cloud is Mako addicted, comes upon Tifa and because he still wants to impress her Jenova uses that weakness and created a fake persona with a stronger will using whatever story, idea, memory of his or Tifa it could get it hands on. There, done.

But still reeling from Zack's recent death, which he does visibly react to in the OG, which is what I'm rather certain inspired the scream in CC.

In Crisis Core

Cloud, still in a somewhat Mako high, is told by Zack to be his living legacy, putting the idea in his head, which Jenova exploits and then runs into the one person in the world he wants to impress by being a SOLDIER First Class (Zack is a SOLDIER First Class).

It may not diminish the role that his desire to be Tifa's hero and all played in the original, but it does make it feel like more of a one in a bajilion coincidence if these two coincidental events had equal part in the creation of Disc 1 Cloud.

Jenova exploits the idea WHEN he runs into the person he wants to impress. In both versions, with and without the line, Cloud's head trip happens upon meeting Tifa. Not before.
And Zack does not told to BE, but told he IS the legacy.

Moreover, this may not be the most impossible retcon (though it does lower my opinion of Cloud if we are truly meant to believe that he thought Zack was pretty much just like the guy we started playing FFVII with), but it is the one they had least cause in making. Okay, you make a game largely about Vincent, Zack, Hojo, the Turks, whoever, you need to make a few changes to give them a story, I can accept that. Not saying any single one of them did a good job but whatever. The truth behind Cloud's ffed up psyche, kind of was FFVII's story to tell. They should have laid off that.

But they included the death sequence, Zack's influence, and Cloud admitting this in FF7. And even Disc1!Cloud and Flashback!Zack aren't very good copies of each other.

Am I the only one who didn't think Zack's "proof that I existed"/"living legacy" line had anything to do with Cloud's behavior on Disc 1, and just assumed that its influence didn't became tangible until after he got his memories back and started feeling guilty over people dying?

Well, if Cloud's head trip hadn't happened, I think he'd have gone into the guilt trip mode directly. But since the head trip happened, and he'd be reminded of what he owed, Jenova would seize on it and twist it.

I think there's a huge ironic value to it, sure, but whenever I think of it, I'm thinking of the "proof that I existed" line more than the "living legacy" version. Of course, I saw the whole game's story twice in Japanese before I bothered with the English version, so that's why that sticks out in my mind more than the localization.

I find it to be an ironic line because Cloud forgets that Zack ever existed. I then think it doesn't become relevant until after Cloud got his memories back because that's when he's feeling like crap over trying to live out both their lives and because he told Zack he wouldn't forget what he lived and died for -- only to promptly have done just that.

I think it's only when thinking in terms of the English "living legacy" that you're bound to get caught up in tying it to Cloud's identity crisis.

But that's just my take.

Nah, I think both ways can tie into it, but both are indirect causes. Both 'You're my living legacy' and 'proof of my existence would get Cloud thinking of how much he owes Zack, bring it to the forefront for easy pickings.

Both versions are affirmations, not orders.


Oh, not sure if this is still an issue, and hasn't really come up in the thread, but the idea that AC/CC changes that Cloud and Zack swapped outfits isn't true. In the flashback, Zack's still wearing his regular outfit after the 'put this on' bit.

 

[ForceStealer]

I played Crisis Core in Japanese first. I got the same impression with the 'proof that I existed' line.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Fair enough, of course. Just seems to me like one wording more readily lends itself to the notion that Cloud's mind would have reacted by trying to adopt Zack's identity, however imperfectly.

 

[ForceStealer]

More readily perhaps, but being told he is the proof that Zack existed carries the same idea/concept/pressure with it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not in my mind, at least if you're assigning pressure. From that perspective, one suggests to me a state that has already been achieved, and while the other could as well, it more seems to be suggestive of a state of ongoing maintenance.

Of course, I just don't see why this line has to have a relation to what happened to Cloud. I'd assume the fact the he had regained movement at all at that point to be related to what his mind had been soaking up with the JENOVA cells all those months -- and that obviously happened before Zack said that.

 

[ForceStealer]

That doesn't get rid of the irony I think they were going for there. Even if Cloud's brain had already started to arrange itself the way it did (though how gone he still is when Tifa finds him seems to suggest it didn't) Zack's typical, honorable and show of confidence goodbye certainly did not help.