FFVII Character Details, Easter Eggs, and General What-the-fuckery

[LicoriceAllsorts]

An idle moment at work gives me time to stir the pot some more.
My original comment was in reference to whether Aerith was or was not aware of Zack's death, given the ambiguous nature of her words and actions in FFVII. What I was trying to say is that the message being sent to her by the Lifestream, or the Planet, or whatever, might have become scrambled by her perception that Zack was in some way still alive. The 'some way' is undefined, but would definitely include Cloud taking on a lot of Zack's history and persona.

Also it's possible, isn't it, that Hojo's experiments in Nibelheim included transplantings cells out of Zack and into Cloud, and vice versa? isn't that just the sort of suck-it-and-see 'science' Hojo would indulge in? The only thing is, I can't remember now why only Cloud's cells would do for Genesis. Why were Zack's no good? That might be an argument against any exchange of cellular material between them.

 

[Roger]

I guess I see what you're saying better now. But I still think you're putting too much emphasis on what Zack does being the determining factor rather than what effectively became. No, in the original version of the scene, Zack probably didn't see Cloud as becoming his legacy or anything whereas in the new one he did so formally. But Cloud still became kind of a bizarro Zack whether he wanted him to or not.

I don't feel Zack had that much to do with Cloud's personality as I said before. Course since Zack was already created as basically a Cloud that did get into SOLDIER, Cloud acting out as what he would if he did get into SOLDIER, and taking Zack's sword... I can see where people are coming from.

Spoiler: --UNPOPULAR OPINION FORTHCOMING-- (and specific CC spoilers)

Where Crisis Core's ending dropped the ball, imo, is Zack's out of body experience to jpop. The "speech," which keeps sounding more and more elaborate the more people complain about it, didn't have much to it.


There were some pauses in there of course, but that was it. If the scene had more or less ended with Cloud's scream and walking off, I wouldn't have any real problem with it. I know what some dislike about it is that lack of "stark reality" or whatever you want to call it of Zack already being dead. But I'm fairly certain what Nojima was going for in Crisis Core was dramatic irony. Zack doesn't realize what his words are going to do Cloud's shattered mind, the audience does. And I can appreciate that.

I only say this because I feel like people shy away from using the term legacy simply because they don't want to lend credence to CC's version of events. But in terms of how Licorice worded her original post that started this, I don't think there's an appreciable difference.

What? Aerith's confused as to whether Zack's truly dead despite the Lifestream telling her dus due to that she still has a sneaking suspicion that somehow Cloud is Zack with blond hair and he just forgot. Yeah I think that relies on the idea that Cloud at the start of FFVII is 100% Zacklike and nothing else alright, which I disagree with, due to not wanting to lend credence to CC's version of events.

Spoiler

I like the scene too, the one where he faces off an impossibly huge army, and fade out as he was just about to charge, the playable sequence where you watched his memories getting destroyed through the use of a gameplay mechanic until there wasnothing left, the firstperson scene where the soldier puts a bullet in his head, the scene where Aerith senses Zack's passed on, the scene where Zack passes the Buster Sword onto Cloud, the flashbacks, the scene where he asks the audience where he became a hero as he gets raised from the ground by angel.

...Perhaps not in that sequence, probably not all of it being used for the same ridiculously drawn out death. But even so, Cloud's SOLDIER persona was a reaction to Tifa finding him. If it wasn't for her I doubt he woulda cared whether he made it SOLDIER. CC throws that motivation to the wind and I think they pushed their luck there.

The only thing is, I can't remember now why only Cloud's cells would do for Genesis. Why were Zack's no good?

Zack already had Jenova cells played inside him before, his cells have already mutated (thus the whole SOLDIER=monster? thing), Cloud's could apparantly still be extracted without contamination (Don't ask me why, they've been in him for four years, in a few months those things were taking over his brain themselves).

 

[ForceStealer]

What? Aerith's confused as to whether Zack's truly dead despite the Lifestream telling her dus due to that she still has a sneaking suspicion that somehow Cloud is Zack with blond hair and he just forgot. Yeah I think that relies on the idea that Cloud at the start of FFVII is 100% Zacklike and nothing else alright, which I disagree with, due to not wanting to lend credence to CC's version of events.

Is this responding to Licorice or me? That last bit makes it sound like it was to me, but what did I say about Aerith? I don't think Cloud would be 100% Zack-like at the beginning of FF7 based on CC. I don't think Square does either, they went a pretty long way to making them pretty dissimilar. Are you referring to simply the fact that he puts the sword to his head? He still mounts his sword on his back the way he did in VII

But even so, Cloud's SOLDIER persona was a reaction to Tifa finding him. If it wasn't for her I doubt he woulda cared whether he made it SOLDIER.

I dunno about this. Well, I agree that if it weren't for Tifa he wouldn't have cared. But that goes back further. That wasn't a reaction to seeing her right in that instant. That was just the catalyst that had whatever ideas Jenova had floating around in his head lined themselves up to create him.
He wanted to be in SOLDIER since he was a kid. And that disappointment was multiplied upon seeing Tifa in Nibelheim and his inability to save her then is what would have been on his mind when Hojo started experimenting on him. But he showed up in Midgar in a SOLDIER uniform with a big-ass sword. I think that would have become his story no matter who found him because whoever found him would have assumed it.
What Zack said merely exacerbated the problem, and that's what I kinda like about it.

 

[Roger]

Is this responding to Licorice or me? That last bit makes it sound like it was to me, but what did I say about Aerith? I don't think Cloud would be 100% Zack-like at the beginning of FF7 based on CC. I don't think Square does either, they went a pretty long way to making them pretty dissimilar. Are you referring to simply the fact that he puts the sword to his head? He still mounts his sword on his back the way he did in VII

You were saying how the previous distinction on what him being Zack's legacy means doesn't matter in relation to Licorice's sstatement.

Whatever Aerith hears, or doesn't hear, when Zack dies - and CC suggests that she can hear something - it must be confused by the fact that Cloud is Zack's "living legacy"....

For him being Zack's legacy to confuse Aerith enough to think better of telling his parents despite the Lifestream doing it's thing to let her know these things, I think he'd need to have lot of Zack in him indeed. The scene in CC at the end does imply to me that, whatever else is going on, Cloud is acting with a SOLDIER's honour as per Zack's instruction, if unknowingly.

Spoiler

I dunno about this. Well, I agree that if it weren't for Tifa he wouldn't have cared. But that goes back further. That wasn't a reaction to seeing her right in that instant. That was just the catalyst that had whatever ideas Jenova had floating around in his head lined themselves up to create him.
He wanted to be in SOLDIER since he was a kid. And that disappointment was multiplied upon seeing Tifa in Nibelheim and his inability to save her then is what would have been on his mind when Hojo started experimenting on him. But he showed up in Midgar in a SOLDIER uniform with a big-ass sword. I think that would have become his story no matter who found him because whoever found him would have assumed it.
What Zack said merely exacerbated the problem, and that's what I kinda like about it.

Seeing him lying there getting harrassed by a dog, with electricity sparking around him, made me think he was still pretty messed up until Tifa said "Cloud" and BOOM suddenly he's showing off his rockhard body to whoever looking. I don't think anyone but Tifa could do that, but that's for the LTD not here.

 

[ForceStealer]

You were saying how the previous distinction on what him being Zack's legacy means doesn't matter in relation to Licorice's sstatement.

OHHHHhhhh. I see In all this I'd forgotten what the thrust of Licorice's post actually was. In that case I agree with you - just that Cloud can be Zack's legacy AND not be confusing Aerith's "I see dead people."

Seeing him lying there getting harrassed by a dog, with electricity sparking around him, made me think he was still pretty messed up until Tifa said "Cloud" and BOOM suddenly he's showing off his rockhard body to whoever looking. I don't think anyone but Tifa could do that, but that's for the LTD not here.

As I said, I'm sure Tifa's presence sped up the process of his mind arranging itself the way it did. But if they had gone for normal RPG cliche and some random person found him and assumed he was a SOLDIER with amnesia, I feel like Cloud would eventually come to the same story.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Obviously the moment Aerith sees Cloud she knows he isn't Zack, even though he reminds her of Zack. What I meant was that at the moment of Zack's death in CC, when she stands up in the church and goes to the window, she may sense that something bad has happened to him but be getting her signals crossed about whether he's 100% gone from the land of the living.

I was making a point about the likelihood of Aerith knowing, through her Cetra powers, that Zack was dead.

 

[Shademp]

Remember when Jessie says,
“……whisper……whisper……
(When the lights go off,
you never know what kind of
creeps'll come out.)”

I noticed last year when I was playing that during the time trial where you run from carriage to carriage on your way to Mako Reactor #5, in the second carriage an old man is feeling her up while she's talking. Then he runs away, pretends like nothing happens, and proceeds being punched by Jessie.

I didn't realise until now that the writers must have intentionally connected this event, which is easily missable in my opinion, with her dialogue about creeps coming out.

 

[Masamune]

legacy - noun

-anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor

How does this not apply?

Because Zack never entrusted anything to Cloud in the original game?

 

[ForceStealer]

Again, what's this idea that for something to be a legacy, Zack has to be the one performing some action and not Cloud?

 

[Masamune]

Again, what's this idea that for something to be a legacy, Zack has to be the one performing some action and not Cloud?

So, Cloud, in a drunken Jenova stupor, cobbling together some screwed up alter-ego from Zack's memories, makes him a "living legacy" or even "proof that [Zack] once existed"? ...Really?

I also think you give Squenix too much credit saying it was deliberate irony. It was clearly them trying to romanticize Zack's death and his relationship with Cloud.

Fangurls (and bois alike) lap it up. But that shit dun fly with Masa. No, dawg.

 

[ForceStealer]

Come on, the fact that it is as ironic as it is would make them unbelievably lucky if they didn't try it. It's not like the changed Nibelheim sequence or Red's mate that you have to really dig for how its possible. It's right there. That's why the game ends with Cloud saying "My name is Cloud. SOLDIER, 1st Class." It's showing you that Cloud's brain took Zack literally. Why else would they have stuck that line in?
Just because I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes doesn't mean you don't grant them even basic credit. Nojima IS the guy that wrote FF7, after all.

So, Cloud, in a drunken Jenova stupor, cobbling together some screwed up alter-ego from Zack's memories, makes him a "living legacy" or even "proof that [Zack] once existed"? ...Really?

In essence, yes. I showed you the definition of legacy, it's what Cloud did. Intent is irrelevant.

 

[Masamune]

Come on, the fact that it is as ironic as it is would make them unbelievably lucky if they didn't try it.

So the ghey sequence of Zack rising from the grave whilst the Jpop plays had nothing to do with Cloud & Zack's tender moment either?

That's why the game ends with Cloud saying "My name is Cloud. SOLDIER, 1st Class." It's showing you that Cloud's brain took Zack literally. Why else would they have stuck that line in?

For people who didn't play FFVII?

And don't forget they keep trying to hammer this living legacy shit home. They don't do subtle anymore.

Just because I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes doesn't mean you don't grant them even basic credit. Nojima IS the guy that wrote FF7, after all.

It would help if he played the game once in awhile.

In essence, yes. I showed you the definition of legacy, it's what Cloud did. Intent is irrelevant.

All he did was confuse his own reality with his memories of Zack. How does that even constitute a legacy?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

A legacy has nothing to do with being called one. Cloud is Zack's legacy regardless of whether he knew he was one or not.

If we're going by this definition

legacy - noun

-anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor

then everyone in FFVII is somebody's legacy even though they never call themselves one. Cloud is Zack's/Hojo's/Sephiroth's. Tifa is Zangan's/Nibelheim's. Barret is Corel's. Aerith is Ilfana's/Elmrya's. Red XIII is Bugenhagen's/Cosmo Canyon's. Yuffie is Wutai's. Cid is Rocket Town's. Vincent is Lucrecia's/Hojo's. Sephiroth is Hojo's.

The only difference is that Cloud is the only one who verbalizes that he is Zack's legacy and so he's the one that comes under fire for being a legacy.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Way off topic here, but the thrad title is annoying me.

*Eggs

Not Egss.

That is all. It would be nice if some staff member would fix it so it would stop irking me.

 

[ForceStealer]

So the ghey sequence of Zack rising from the grave whilst the Jpop plays had nothing to do with Cloud & Zack's tender moment either?

In a word, no. That seemed to have much more to do with Zack and Angeal than Zack and Cloud.

 

[Roger]

then everyone in FFVII is somebody's legacy even though they never call themselves one. Cloud is Zack's/Hojo's/Sephiroth's. Tifa is Zangan's/Nibelheim's. Barret is Corel's. Aerith is Ilfana's/Elmrya's. Red XIII is Bugenhagen's/Cosmo Canyon's. Yuffie is Wutai's. Cid is Rocket Town's. Vincent is Lucrecia's/Hojo's. Sephiroth is Hojo's.

The only difference is that Cloud is the only one who verbalizes that he is Zack's legacy and so he's the one that comes under fire for being a legacy.

Yes, if the moment you meet someone or repeat anyting they say you become their living legacy then yes, I dunno why this dynamic needs to be beaten into our heads. I'm sure Zack has hundreds of living legacies running around.

 

[ForceStealer]

Come now, there was always more to it than repeating something said. Are you saying that unless someone flat out says t you "You're my legacy" you're not one?

Way off topic here, but the thrad title is annoying me.

*Eggs

Not Egss.

That is all. It would be nice if some staff member would fix it so it would stop irking me.

We're not here to tend to your OCD

 

[Roger]

Come now, there was always more to it than repeating something said. Are you saying that unless someone flat out says t you "You're my legacy" you're not one?

Either Zack or Cloud having any kind willing, deliberate or even concious part in the matter would have made the sentiment more appropriate, yes.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

To reiterate what were (I think) Force Stealer's and Grudge's points, when Zack gives his 'living legacy' death speech, what he means is, "Bud, I gave my life to save yours. You're proof that I didn't live in vain. Don't screw up my sacrifice: do something worthwhile with your life." The [clearly intentional] irony is that Cloud's fried brain takes these words literally, and amalgamates his original self with Zack's self. He doesn't become Zack, and he doesn't think he IS Zack, but he's certainly forgotten that there ever was a Zack - and since the loss of Zack and the recognition of Zack's sacrifice would be devastating for him, the kind of denial he's in is, i think, very astutely done, psychologically speaking.

 

[minimosey]

Remember when Jessie says,
“……whisper……whisper……
(When the lights go off,
you never know what kind of
creeps'll come out.)”

I noticed last year when I was playing that during the time trial where you run from carriage to carriage on your way to Mako Reactor #5, in the second carriage an old man is feeling her up while she's talking. Then he runs away, pretends like nothing happens, and proceeds being punched by Jessie.

I didn't realise until now that the writers must have intentionally connected this event, which is easily missable in my opinion, with her dialogue about creeps coming out.

Oh wow. I am definitely going to have to watch out for this now.

 

[Shademp]

Oh wow. I am definitely going to have to watch out for this now.

Correction on my part though; it happens in the third carriage.

 

[Masamune]

then everyone in FFVII is somebody's legacy even though they never call themselves one. Cloud is Zack's/Hojo's/Sephiroth's. Tifa is Zangan's/Nibelheim's. Barret is Corel's. Aerith is Ilfana's/Elmrya's. Red XIII is Bugenhagen's/Cosmo Canyon's. Yuffie is Wutai's. Cid is Rocket Town's. Vincent is Lucrecia's/Hojo's. Sephiroth is Hojo's.

The only difference is that Cloud is the only one who verbalizes that he is Zack's legacy and so he's the one that comes under fire for being a legacy.

Well, if the term has nothing specific to Cloud/Zack then why on earth should we take it seriously?

It's like saying Priscilla is Cloud's "living legacy" because he gave her CPR once. Oops... don't wanna give Nojima ideas.

 

[Shademp]

I just checked out Turk Vincent's PC field model. I know that's supposed to be his mouth, but really it looks like a mustasche.

LOOK OUT, IT'S HITLER VINCENT!

 

[Octo]

I just checked out Turk Vincent's PC field model. I know that's supposed to be his mouth, but really it looks like a mustasche.

LOOK OUT, IT'S HITLER VINCENT!

This is brilliant. I've had a really shit day and seeing Hitler Vincent has cheered me up no end .

Shademp have you got other character models? I tried getting them to work via Milkshape and that other FFVII model viewing programe (I forget its name) anyway it didn't work for whatever reason. Possibly because I have the LAPTOP FROM HELL™

Obviously I'm only really interested in the Turk models, in particular I want to know if they bothered giving Tsengs model a 'dot' or not! If you can confirm this I will give you my firstborn child. ^_____^

 

[Shademp]

Sorry to disappoint Octorawk, but my only experience with viewing FFVII's models are Noesis, http://oasis.xentax.com/index.php?content=downloads,
and Makou Reactor, http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=9658.msg133843#msg133843.

With the former I've only been able to view the battle models and with the latter I only have a limited view of the PC field models. Though upon checking every field where I remember Tseng appears in, there is no forehead dot to be seen.

In the case of Makou Reactor, I got the field model viewer working by first loading the flevel.lgp file (of course) and then in configurations connecting Makou Reactor with the char.lgp file. Maybe those other programs you've tested just requires you to connect with the char.lgp file? (Wild guessing on my part)

For good measure, here is Hitler-Vincent when he is just standing still.