FFVII Character Details, Easter Eggs, and General What-the-fuckery

[Octo]

Thanks Shademp. You have given me closure after all these years......
and this:

is how I repay you!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Historically Wutai is a part of Midgar.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, if the term has nothing specific to Cloud/Zack then why on earth should we take it seriously?

Because while not limited to the two of them, Cloud takes the idea of living on for Zack a lot more seriously than most. What CC really added to the dynamic was Zack putting that idea in Cloud's head, where in the OG he went yabbo on his own.

It's like saying Priscilla is Cloud's "living legacy" because he gave her CPR once. Oops... don't wanna give Nojima ideas.

Actually, it's really not like that at all. Now, if Priscilla began emulating Cloud, then you'd have a point about Priscilla being his living legacy.

Of course, as part of his story, she is, as it stands, a PART of his legacy, but does not embody it.

 

[Ite]

In the OG Cloud did NOT go Yabbo on his own. His mind was a soup of PTSD and Jenova cells, a creature historically known for causing hallucinations, infecting people's minds and controlling them.

The reason Jenova creates that illusionary world for Cloud to live in was because Cloud's mind was too strong to be broken by her. His will was too great to become one of those cloaked figures (which is why Hojo dubbed him a 'failed experiment'). So Jenova (or Sephiroth, ymmv) fucked with what s/he could in order to give Cloud a reason to get his ass to the Reunion.

Yes, Cloud's sad pathetic past is a factor in his adoption of Zack's memories, but it's only a factor in that Jenova/roth saw a weak point in his mind and exploited it for his/her own gain.

That moment is so fucking important to the story that I almost would have preferred a narrator explaining what the fuck was going on for people who can't read into subtext. Because as powerful as that moment was in the OG, if it didn't properly communicate what was going on, it failed. So much so that even some of the original writing staff have misinterpreted what that moment meant. (or more likely they didn't care)

And now we have Cloud's mind being split because he's sad about his buddy's death? And he wants to keep his friend alive by pretending to be him?

That sounds way more like going yabbo on his own. And it undermines the entire plot of FFVII.

I understand that Crisis Core wasn't about Jenova, and that it wanted an ending that was relevant to its own story, but what it accomplished instead was probably the worst retcon in the Compilation so far: this legacy bullshit.

 

[ForceStealer]

And now we have Cloud's mind being split because he's sad about his buddy's death? And he wants to keep his friend alive by pretending to be him?

That's not even close to what CC's ending says happened. He doesn't "want" anything. His mind is still a mess of PTSD and Jenova cells, how did that change? His mind is split because he's sad? How do you figure? He was still a walking vegetable up to that point, its not like they portrayed him as perfectly fine until Zack dies. All it changed is that Zack's words caused Cloud's perception of his personality to get mixed up into Cloud's new persona instead of Cloud doing that on his own. That's all.

 

[Dana Scully]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but I don't see how Cloud being Zack's legacy is separate from Jenova fucking with his head.

Like ite said, Zack's death is just one of many factors that would make Cloud's mental state vulnerable, the rest including being comatose for the last ~5 years and all the shit that happened in Nibelheim.

Take all that, and then add the stress of being told by your dying friend, who's also a straight-up hero, that hey, bub, now it's your responsibility to uphold all those honourable values of mine and be awesome and good-looking and shit.

Not only is that quite the weight to bear, but all of a sudden Cloud feels he has to become this person of what he sees as superheroic proportions. Both these factors would add to everything else in making him the perfect target for Jenova to work her crazy-magic.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Yeah, Cloud being Jenova/Sephiroth's plaything and being Zack's living legacy are NOT mutually exclusive concepts. The living legacy thing, in an ionic twist, just hlped set Cloud's mind up in a way that allowed him to be rewritten by Jenova/Sephiroth.

Also Ite, whats this crap about Cloud being to strong willed to end up like the cloak guys? He was exactly like them for 5 years. And if I recall Hojo only called Cloud a failure because of the lack of tatoo, when in reality Cloud was the projects greatest success, and Zack was the one who was a failure.

 

[Roger]

That's not even close to what CC's ending says happened. He doesn't "want" anything. His mind is still a mess of PTSD and Jenova cells, how did that change? His mind is split because he's sad? How do you figure? He was still a walking vegetable up to that point, its not like they portrayed him as perfectly fine until Zack dies. All it changed is that Zack's words caused Cloud's perception of his personality to get mixed up into Cloud's new persona instead of Cloud doing that on his own. That's all.

Want is a strong word, but AC/C has Cloud remember it a conscious decision at the time. And a vegetable doesn't have the place of mind to say goodbye to their friend. They didn't portray him as fine but he was FAR more aware of his surroundings then in the OG.

And nevertheless, UO still describes his persona as condescending towards others, cold, pitiable, indifferent toward the opposite sex, are we really okay with the idea that this was primarily based on Zack as you say CC clearly would have us think? That Cloud does not know the first thing about what his best and first (and at the time only) friend was like.

 

[ForceStealer]

He had a moment of clarity - which he had in the original game anyway. How else would have had the presence of mind to pick up Zack's sword and scream/mourn/whatever lego Cloud was doing when he looked at the sky?

And was it actually said anywhere that Zack was Cloud's first, best, and only friend? Going by CC, they only serve on two missions together, and happen to run into one another in Junon. And Zack is not the only personality mixed into the new persona, even with CC's events.

 

[Roger]

He had a moment of clarity - which he had in the original game anyway. How else would have had the presence of mind to pick up Zack's sword and scream/mourn/whatever lego Cloud was doing when he looked at the sky?

Uh no. clinging to whatevers nearest and looking up=/=a conversation.

And was it actually said anywhere that Zack was Cloud's first, best, and only friend? Going by CC, they only serve on two missions together, and happen to run into one another in Junon. And Zack is not the only personality mixed into the new persona, even with CC's events.

Going by CC, two years flew by in all three/four days. And Zack's DMW puts him on level with Angeal in terms of importance. Yes they were friends,

And considering the only other guy that survived a mission with him can't connect Cloud, the spiky-haired SOLDIER First Class carrying the Buster Sword hunting Sephiroth to Cloud, that grunt that was working for me that I suspect killed Sephiroth five years ago in an incident that i have been composing a report on and who I have been hunting for the past year now along with a SOLDIER First Class carrying the Buster Sword, I'd say he must have been very unmemorable to other people.

 

[ForceStealer]

Uh no. clinging to whatevers nearest and looking up=/=a conversation.

Clinging to whatever's nearest? He pulled himself uphill to where Zack was dead, after not moving at all even when gunshots were ringing out right next to him to pick up the sword before looking at the sky and spreading his arms. An animation the game had Barret use mourning Dyne's death.
Also, parroting Zack's words back at him =/= a conversation. (And I know he says "Good night, Zack." But Jenova wasn't going to have him forget Zack existed when he's right in front of him, as we said before, Tifa was probably the catalyst that started a lot of the self-insertion)

Going by CC, two years flew by in all three/four days. And Zack's DMW puts him on level with Angeal in terms of importance. Yes they were friends,

Of course they were friends. But "first, best, and only friend" is a bit of an assumption. Nor does it say anything about how well Cloud really knew the guy. No matter how important he was to Zack, Zack viewed him as a trainee, protege, younger brother, whatever you wanna call it. He obviously acted differently around him than he did, say, Kunsel. Why would Cloud have ever seen Zack's womanizing tendencies, for instance.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The reason Jenova creates that illusionary world for Cloud to live in was because Cloud's mind was too strong to be broken by her. His will was too great to become one of those cloaked figures (which is why Hojo dubbed him a 'failed experiment'). So Jenova (or Sephiroth, ymmv) fucked with what s/he could in order to give Cloud a reason to get his ass to the Reunion.

Minor correction, to expand on what Noctis said: Cloud's will, in fact, was utterly broken by Hojo's experiments, and it was Zack who was dubbed the failed experiment rather than Cloud. If not for Zack's interference, Cloud would have ended up in a black cloak and with a tattoo like the rest of those poor souls.

Remember, Hojo's experiment was to test the Reunion theory. The objective was for the subjects' minds to break, so the JENOVA in them could take over and guide them to the Reunion.

Hojo actually tells Cloud on the Sister Ray that he was the only successful Sephiroth copy (Hojo hadn't seen any of the others arrive at the Reunion, because Sephiroth had killed them already).

Pg. 213 of VII's Ultimania Omega also clears all this up.

Now, that being said, both the CC Complete Guide (pg. 286) and CC itself inaccurately -- and retconily -- refer to Cloud as a failure, but do so on the basis that he's so fucked up that he's going to die:

(From the documents on the table in the lab in CC)

Analysis of Procedural Failure
Failure Case #1: SOLDIER 1st Class
Summary: Desired effect did not occur. Strong tolerance to Jenova cells due to SOLDIER conditioning assessed as cause.

Failed Case #2: Shinra Infantryman
Summary: Weak tolerance to Jenova cells led to toxicosis. Lack of response to outside stimuli suggests severe system damage. Recovery highly unlikely.

Such a sad and pathetic retcon given that documents in the same lab in the original game even said Cloud had a reaction to JENVOA, whereas these reports say that they couldn't get Cloud to react to any outside stimuli at that point.

One of many retcons that makes Crisis Core garbage.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In the OG Cloud did NOT go Yabbo on his own. His mind was a soup of PTSD and Jenova cells, a creature historically known for causing hallucinations, infecting people's minds and controlling them.

Which is all true, but misses the point I was making- in CC, Zack puts the idea of a legacy into Cloud's head. In the OG, this is Cloud's own doing. CC doesn't change that there are other factors which make him yabba dabba, either.

The reason Jenova creates that illusionary world for Cloud to live in was because Cloud's mind was too strong to be broken by her. His will was too great to become one of those cloaked figures (which is why Hojo dubbed him a 'failed experiment'). So Jenova (or Sephiroth, ymmv) fucked with what s/he could in order to give Cloud a reason to get his ass to the Reunion.

While plausible, this is all just speculation on your part.

Yes, Cloud's sad pathetic past is a factor in his adoption of Zack's memories, but it's only a factor in that Jenova/roth saw a weak point in his mind and exploited it for his/her own gain.

That moment is so fucking important to the story that I almost would have preferred a narrator explaining what the fuck was going on for people who can't read into subtext. Because as powerful as that moment was in the OG, if it didn't properly communicate what was going on, it failed. So much so that even some of the original writing staff have misinterpreted what that moment meant. (or more likely they didn't care)

Careful, Ite, you seem to be straying into 'I know the series better than the writer' territory here.

And now we have Cloud's mind being split because he's sad about his buddy's death? And he wants to keep his friend alive by pretending to be him?

That sounds way more like going yabbo on his own. And it undermines the entire plot of FFVII.

Whoa. No one said that at all. CC doesn't even imply that. All it does is have Zack suggest the idea of a legacy to Cloud, rather than Cloud come up with that concept on his own, having his last words, meant to inspire Cloud be a tool that ultimately helps Cloud's foes fuck him over.

I understand that Crisis Core wasn't about Jenova, and that it wanted an ending that was relevant to its own story, but what it accomplished instead was probably the worst retcon in the Compilation so far: this legacy bullshit.

But it doesn't actually retcon the rest of why Cloud has issues in the OG, it just explains, in part, why he incorporated Zack's stories specifically into the shell he crafted.

ADDENDUM:

Such a sad and pathetic retcon given that documents in the same lab in the original game even said Cloud had a reaction to JENVOA, whereas these reports say that they couldn't get Cloud to react to any outside stimuli at that point.

One of many retcons that makes Crisis Core garbage.

Except that having Toxicosis leading to complete lack of response to stimuli IS a reaction to Jenova cells. Just as a fatal allergy is a reaction to what you're allergic too.
Unless the 'sad and pathetic retcon' is something more specific, this one really isn't.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Except that having Toxicosis leading to complete lack of response to stimuli IS a reaction to Jenova cells. Just as a fatal allergy is a reaction to what you're allergic too.

Well, yeah, you could call it that. I guess at that point they were looking for a response to stimuli that would indicate he could recover, which would be a separate thing altogether from whether his body reacted to JENVOA's cells earlier, in line with the experiment.

So that's a distinction worth making.

Unless the 'sad and pathetic retcon' is something more specific, this one really isn't.

The part about Cloud being a failure remains so. Just shift those adjectives over there, I guess.


By the way, for everyone's ease of reading -- and to emphasize that the specific kind of reaction Cloud had was what the experiment wanted and was in contrast to Zack's lack of reaction -- I'm going to post the text of the original game's documents too:

Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

 

[Roger]

Also, parroting Zack's words back at him =/= a conversation. (And I know he says "Good night, Zack." But Jenova wasn't going to have him forget Zack existed when he's right in front of him, as we said before, Tifa was probably the catalyst that started a lot of the self-insertion)

"I swore, that I would never forget. (Sure, I was just randomly parroting what the **** came my way but I still)." This is how you took that scene?

Of course they were friends. But "first, best, and only friend" is a bit of an assumption. Nor does it say anything about how well Cloud really knew the guy. No matter how important he was to Zack, Zack viewed him as a trainee, protege, younger brother, whatever you wanna call it. He obviously acted differently around him than he did, say, Kunsel. Why would Cloud have ever seen Zack's womanizing tendencies, for instance.

The other dozen guys that left to join Shinra never knew what happened to him, and the flashbacks seem to paint a pretty clear picture of Cloud's interpersonal skills. Zack was pretty clearly set up to be an exception to the rule. Though I dunno what makes you say Cloud was his trainee/protegee whstever. Nor do I know why you think he acted differently around Kunsel. Not at all obvious to me. As for the last part 1. All the other stuff couldn't be further off from Zack's personaliy as well. And 2. He doesn't need to. Jenova can absorb people's traits and memories.

In FFVII he absorbed Tifa's memories of him and Zack, used the story Zack told him to explain what the f he's been up too for the past 7 years and the rest was his personal impression of what SOLDIER should be like. Because Zack is dead when Cloud wakes up. Whether him looking at the sword was suppose to be when he got the idea and he just happened to run the only person in the world that would make the impersonation matter to him personally, or whether it all thanks to his subconcious desire to impress Tifa and the Jenova in him using that to it's advantage, the fact remains Zack was dead before he could have a greater part in this.

In CC, when the idea is obviously first born in Cloud's head, he is not. And Meteor Shots was pretty much put in to tell us that Cloud's Jenova cells did have a peak inside Zack's brain. The guy we get on Disc 1 of FFVII, pretty much anti-Zack in every way, is partly derived from Zack's psyche. This does not fly with me.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And considering the only other guy that survived a mission with him can't connect Cloud, the spiky-haired SOLDIER First Class carrying the Buster Sword hunting Sephiroth to Cloud, that grunt that was working for me that I suspect killed Sephiroth five years ago in an incident that i have been composing a report on and who I have been hunting for the past year now along with a SOLDIER First Class carrying the Buster Sword, I'd say he must have been very unmemorable to other people.

You underestimate Tseng's deviousness.

In fact, the assumption is frequently made on these boards that the FFVII characters know their own minds, have perfect recall, understand themselves and their motives, and are always honest with themselves and others.

"I swore, that I would never forget. (Sure, I was just randomly parroting what the **** came my way but I still)." This is how you took that scene?

Cloud has been through a lot by the time he says this: a lot of suffering, a lot of 'therapy' with Tifa rootling around in his unconscious, a lot of reflection, a lot of recovering from amnesia. He's looking back over three years to an event he wasn't entirely himself for. Is there not at least a degree of potential for mentally re-writing the past in that scenario?

Finally, nobody ever said Cloud was a good Zack impersonator. Some elements of him reminded Aerith of Zack. Tifa, as far as I can remember, just thought his behaviour was weird and out of character.

 

[tibiquera]

Finally, nobody ever said Cloud was a good Zack impersonator. Some elements of him reminded Aerith of Zack. Tifa, as far as I can remember, just thought his behaviour was weird and out of character.

I actually disagree with this part. Here's what Aeris said in the date scene:

First off, it bothered me how you
looked exactly like. Two completely different people, but look exactly the
same. The way you walk, gesture... I think I must have seen him again, in
you... But you're different. Things are different...

As you see in the bolded parts, there's no indication Aeris sees Zack's personality in Cloud, just the way he acts reminds her of him.

Also Tifa did say he was acting strange, but then it doesn't make sense she would be all in love with Cloud if he was being a different person. Cloud was screwed up, but he still had the same personality.

 

[Roger]

Also Tifa did say he was acting strange, but then it doesn't make sense she would be all in love with Cloud if he was being a different person. Cloud was screwed up, but he still had the same personality.

Well he was a different person. The real Cloud is the voice telling you that this isn't a normal reactor and all that jazz. Tifa knew Cloud had always been kind to her but didn't think much of Cloud's attidute towards Barret because he was in her eyes that eager to get into fights when they were little, she didn't know everybody in town blamed Cloud for Tifa's coma and that her three best friends went along with it to cover their own asses.

 

[ForceStealer]

First off, it bothered me how you
looked exactly like. Two completely different people, but look exactly the
same. The way you walk, gesture... I think I must have seen him again, in
you... But you're different. Things are different...

And this is the disagreement, I think. I don't see how what Zack says to Cloud changes any of this. Some seem to think that if a remake were not made based on CC, Cloud would spend the first half of the game mimicking Zack. Does the glimpse of him we see after the credits really suggest that? Sure he does the sword-to-his-head thing, but Zack would be smiling, for one thing. Cloud is glaring forward and decidedly not running down the length of the train screaming "IRASSHAIMASE!!"

Want is a strong word, but AC/C has Cloud remember it a conscious decision at the time. And a vegetable doesn't have the place of mind to say goodbye to their friend. They didn't portray him as fine but he was FAR more aware of his surroundings then in the OG.

"I swore, that I would never forget. (Sure, I was just randomly parroting what the **** came my way but I still)." This is how you took that scene?

Why is momentary lucidity upon seeing Zack dead/dying irreconciliable but the fact that Cloud is perfectly fine mere moments after seeing Tifa totally acceptable? As I said before, he was obviously already in better shape in the original game evidenced by the fact that he was moving, which he had been incapable of doing up to that point. And he was still mourning when he looked up to the sky, I'm convinced. There is no other explanation why Cloud would have spread his arms to the sky.

I could be remembering wrong on this one as its been a long time since I last saw it, but didn't the original AC have him say the line that he said he wouldn't forget before CC existed?

 

[Roger]

And this is the disagreement, I think. I don't see how what Zack says to Cloud changes any of this. Some seem to think that if a remake were not made based on CC, Cloud would spend the first half of the game mimicking Zack. Does the glimpse of him we see after the credits really suggest that? Sure he does the sword-to-his-head thing, but Zack would be smiling, for one thing. Cloud is glaring forward and decidedly not running down the length of the train screaming "IRASSHAIMASE!!"

Zack grew up just a little in the six years after that scene. i don't remember him putting the Buster Sword againt his head while grinning from ear to ear.

I could be remembering wrong on this one as its been a long time since I last saw it, but didn't the original AC have him say the line that he said he wouldn't forget before CC existed?

Yeah I said AC/C. AC started this questionable interpretation then CC showed it and ACC put the two together. He has flashbacks when to the scene when he is saying the unaltered line in ACC. CC and AC/C are reasonably consistent with each other, even if the Comp failed in every other regard (two out of seven ain't that bad a score right )?

 

[Ite]

AC =/= OG

 

[ForceStealer]

Really? I didn't know that...

My point was that CC's version of the scene did not exist. And, unless you're about to accuse SE of forethought, that suggests that even the original scene's mourning could lead one to believe he had some lucidity in that moment. Minor point anyway.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud was cognizant during the scene in the OG. He REMEMBERS it later, for fuck's sake. He just wasn't coherent.
Chalk it up to a brief moment of lucidity, which then deteriorates as he heads into Midgar, leading to being found conked out in the trainyard.

Also, expecting Cloud to be exactly Zack because of the living legacy thing is unreasonable. He's still a mix of four or so influences, Zack among them, but also Cloud's own idea of what a cool cocky Soldier would be like.

Also,Cloud being a failure in the eyes of the scientists isn't a retcon, since he wasn't a proper success until much later and they'd be justified in thinking he was a failure, though if the CCU labels him a failure (instead of noting he was labeled as a failure), then that's a retcon, but still not worth the label 'sad and pathetic' IMO.

Or Hojo's just an asshat. I can always go with Hojo's just an asshat to explain my continuity blunders. Even if he's not involved. Even in other series. It's just Hojo's fault. Somehow.

 

[tibiquera]

Also, expecting Cloud to be exactly Zack because of the living legacy thing is unreasonable. He's still a mix of four or so influences, Zack among them, but also Cloud's own idea of what a cool cocky Soldier would be like.

For what I remember from the OG, Cloud's fake persona was a mixture of other people's memories, but not personality. There's nothing in the game that suggests his personality was linked to Zack or Tifa.

Why is momentary lucidity upon seeing Zack dead/dying irreconciliable but the fact that Cloud is perfectly fine mere moments after seeing Tifa totally acceptable? As I said before, he was obviously already in better shape in the original game evidenced by the fact that he was moving, which he had been incapable of doing up to that point. And he was still mourning when he looked up to the sky, I'm convinced. There is no other explanation why Cloud would have spread his arms to the sky.

That always seemed odd to me. The way I would explain it is that when he saw Tifa, Jenova just used Tifa's memories and built his persona at the spot. It's a lame explanation, but no other explanation makes more sense than that to me.

 

[Ite]

I think that's a misdirection. Jenova had five years to worm around in Cloud's brain, so it doesn't seem so sudden to me. Tifa's memories are also his memories after all, Sephiroth wasn't telling the whole truth in the Whirlwind Maze, methinks. Considering that Train Graveyard scene happens while Cloud is missing, after Tifa has been told a half-truth about Cloud's 'composition', I don't take the whole 'absorbing Tifa's memories' thing too seriously.

Cloud spasm-ing over Zack's body always seemed more to me like Cloud's mind coming around and trying to fight off Jenova, only to fail and wind up at the train station.