FFVII from a newcomers perspective

[Fiz]

That's clearly not the narrative, but okay lol. cc the LTD thread though.

Well its that or its playing harems. My point is that there is no Cloud x Tifa and there is no Cloud x Aerith. The shippers are wasting their time.

AC Spoilers:

Spoiler

Seriously tho, the narrative hot take is pretty easy to argue from AC, and honestly, I was just trying to throw the shippers something because any romantic conclusion isn't it. Cloud is wandering around treating Tifa like garbage, never being around, ignoring her calls, while he struggles with his own illness and "oh Aerith", being unable to let go. But for some reason shippers seem to think they're in a romantic relationship in AC. So yeah, if its anything its something like that I said... or its a harem anime and we all know how they work.

Personally, I think its probably harems considering AC and the compilation a whole is basically fan service... AC is basically Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth and Marlene fan service.

 

[KindOfBlue]

While I don’t disagree about the game playing around with the Aerith vs Tifa thing and that it’s not clear what Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is post-OG, if you look at the statements from the devs about the Lifestream scene, the scene under the Highwind, AC, and what’s shown in the novels, it’s pretty clear that whatever they have is definitely mutual and not platonic.

My take is that both romances were designed with some validity but they both go in very different directions that the player ultimately does not have a choice in. It’s really not a dating sim, or the Witcher 3, and I think shippers have a weird way of conflating what they like with what actually happens. Like yeah, if you like Cloud x Aerith, good. You’re supposed to so that her death hurts even more. But you don’t have to look very far to see what the devs were going for with their characters.

I think what @Stiggie said speaks to something I mentioned in another thread about how our brains fill in the gaps about certain things in the OG, which sets the remake up for failure if it doesn’t meet the expectations you put on it because “it’s not like how I imagined”. And when people latch on to their interpretations especially when it involves self-inserting and shipping, it can be pretty hard to let go. But hey, themes of things not being as they seem and accepting reality are pretty in-line with what happens in FF7.

 

[Fiz]

While I don’t disagree about the game playing around with the Aerith vs Tifa thing and that it’s not clear what Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is post-OG, if you look at the statements from the devs about the Lifestream scene, the scene under the Highwind, AC, and what’s shown in the novels, it’s pretty clear that whatever they have is definitely mutual and not platonic.

I wasn't saying it isn't mutual, my hot take was more like "none of them are meant to be", "both doomed to failure (but for different reasons)". More like that.

I raised AC because they're either not at all romantically involved and Tifa is getting hurt wanting him around, or they are supposedly romantically involved but hes absent because he is busy being emo over Geostigma and Aerith and its shit. Either way its shit. But for a shipper it throws some crumbs, which the shippers eat up, deciding that they're together with an adopted son, and Marlene, playing happy families. Which is weird but seems to be a thing.

What its doing though, is throwing crumbs to both Clerith and Cloti shippers, where Cloti's will argue they're technically involved in some way and Cleriths will argue that Cloud loves her because so much of his mental state is revolving around losing her. They're both simultaneously correct, because its all just crumbs.

My take is that both romances were designed with some validity but they both go in very different directions that the player ultimately does not have a choice in. It’s really not a dating sim, or the Witcher 3, and I think shippers have a weird way of conflating what they like with what actually happens. Like yeah, if you like Cloud x Aerith, good. You’re supposed to so that her death hurts even more. But you don’t have to look very far to see what the devs were going for with their characters.

Well, yeah, I think Aerith was being setup as a legit romantic pairing for the purposes of making her death more painful.

I think what @Stiggie said speaks to something I mentioned in another thread about how our brains fill in the gaps about certain things in the OG, which sets the remake up for failure if it doesn’t meet the expectations you put on it because “it’s not like how I imagined”. And when people latch on to their interpretations especially when it involves self-inserting and shipping, it can be pretty hard to let go. But hey, themes of things not being as they seem and accepting reality are pretty in-line with what happens in FF7.

I agree.

 

[KindOfBlue]

eciding that they're together with an adopted son, and Marlene, playing happy families. Which is weird but seems to be a thing.

That’s the thing though. According to the devs, Cloud IS happy with Tifa and the new life they have together and the premise of AC is that the more happy he is, the more afraid he is of losing that happiness because he blames himself for Aerith and Zack’s deaths and once everything is cleared up, he ultimately goes back to Tifa. Now, was AC clear about this? Hell no. But that’s what the devs said, so I take it for what it was.

The reason this even matters to me (because I generally don’t care about shipping) kind of connects to the point of this thread about the newcomer’s perspective. For me, it’ll be almost a year since I first dove into this crazy world but one of the things keeping me from jumping into this for years was my assumption that Cloud was just this boring emo edgelord who meets the perfect manic pixie dream girl that completely changes his life and when she dies he spends the rest of his life moping over her. You can imagine my surprise that not only is Cloud not like that, but he quickly became my favorite video character of all time.

Anyways, I walked away from AC thinking “okay, I could see why people might interpret it this way but I really can’t tell”. Then I read the interviews and the translations of the novels and was relieved that what they were going for was way more interesting then what some people took away from it. Problem is, it just wasn’t a very good movie. So I think because people revere FF7 so much, it leads people to think that certain things were intentional creative choices and not just flukes or missteps in storytelling even in the OG itself. As far as AC goes, I think the breadcrumbs thing has less to do with them trying to satisfy both ships and more to do with them just not being that good at filmmaking. The devs’ statements definitely improved my impression of the movie at least.

 

[Odysseus]

This doesn't seem like the correct place to hold this debate.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I do see the validity in discussing it from the angle of the newcomer's perspective, but if we venture more into the nitty gritty details of the LTD, then the LTD section of the forum would be the place for that.

Only other thing I'll add is a question for @Fiz in case they choose to continue discussing the topic: it sounds like you may be unfamiliar with the depiction in "On the Way to A Smile" of the time between the original game and AC; and/or the many things that have been said about that time (developer and Ultimania comments)? It would probably be worth your time to investigate those if you're serious about discussing the subject.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah pretty much anything that needs to be said about the LTD specifically has been said already, I’m more interested in the overall relationship between the fan’s perception of the story and the creator’s intent and how they seem to be at odds with one another sometimes...hell, look at all the chatter about what the devs are doing with the remake

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I've just never understood what's so hot about that LTD thing. 'Tis all moot.

 

[Odysseus]

I never understood why it matters to people so much either, really. I've never been a shipper though, not really.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I understand it all too well from my years of Naruto fandom...honestly I feel bad for newcomers who do ship but aren’t complete wackjobs like the worst of this fanbase, it’s far too easy to get wrapped up in all of this when you’ve got really obsessive behavior flying around like a virus

Shoot, me and my whole family all caught COVID, but at least we ain’t shippers

 

[rkss]

When I played the first time, i've never got the impression of LT, may be I'm the minority.

Over the years, Cloud's become Link, an avatar for audiences to project themselves onto. He's whatever you think he is. Conceptually, it worked because Cloud was a larper sorta but he should be himself after that, hanging on the idea for long is not healthy.

Men, I just want this shit to end. It's like they're not allowed to have their own characters anymore.

 

[Fiz]

Yeah, I do see the validity in discussing it from the angle of the newcomer's perspective, but if we venture more into the nitty gritty details of the LTD, then the LTD section of the forum would be the place for that.

I don't think its a good idea for me to jump in and give my 2 cents in conversations with shippers. I'm pretty sure my opinions would be baity as fuck to them, I'd piss everyone off and the last time I did that I wound up getting weird messages from someone. lol

So, I shall drop the discussion.

Only other thing I'll add is a question for @Fiz in case they choose to continue discussing the topic: it sounds like you may be unfamiliar with the depiction in "On the Way to A Smile" of the time between the original game and AC; and/or the many things that have been said about that time (developer and Ultimania comments)? It would probably be worth your time to investigate those if you're serious about discussing the subject.

But, I'll reply to your question. I'll put in spoiler tags to collapse my reply and because it will include some spoilers.

Spoiler

I don't think its that I need to educate myself better on the content though, while many of you are certainly better versed about the more intricate details of FFVII lore than me, I do have a general understanding and have seen AC, read the short novels, etc.

I think its more that I have different feelings towards it and what it represents.


As a result of my "discussions" with some of you in other threads, I wondered if I had missed something and totally misunderstood it all. I decided to rewatch Advent Children Complete yesterday evening, re-read Maiden and started re-reading On The Way to a Smile.

So far it hasn't brought me around to your way of seeing things, if anything its hardening them.


When I first watched AC I was thoroughly dissapointed, I felt like it wrecked the characters and threw OG's themes to the wall for the sakes of gratuitous fan service, oftentimes undermining the characters in the process. Its rare that I find myself struggling to give some kind of praise to something, but with AC I really struggle to find positives at all, even when I really try.

The issue with AC is that its pandering to fan service at the expense of the characters.


Tifas character is being seriously undermined, they turned her into this subservient love interest who is in limbo and being treat like garbage, and to make matters worse shes taking it and Cloud still has her as an option at the end because she loves him and shes totally there for him and he said hes ready to embrace his friends.

If they're trying to say something about Cloud and Tifas relationship then what exactly is it?

That Tifa will sit there laking care of two kids while waiting for Cloud to be interested? While he's off elsewhere, ignores her calls, and beats himself up over Aerith? That she will take that? That she will be miserable for him? That he can repeatedly hurt her and she will stay? That she will be there waiting like the good little girl that she is?

If it was trying to portray something melancholy and write something meaningful about it, then I can accept that. But it isn't self aware, its pandering to Harem Anime 101 tropes. When I wrote that possible explanation above it was an attempt to give something really shitty a pass, to try to give it some legitimacy.

The novels explain whats going on but they're doing it from the perspective of Clouds character development while lacking any awareness for the situation its writing for the other characters involved and the implications it has for them and of its own messaging. When I explore the subject matter I feel like its balancing a bit of Cloti fanservice with a bit of Clerith fan service, and justifying itself with a bit of Cloud character development.


When I said that the compilation was undermining the stories original themes re Aerith, just watching AC again reinforced that. They're saying that her death carries this weight while putting her front, back and centre all over the thing. Shes chatting away to him from the afterlife, shes making phone calls, appearing to Cloud, we have Zack having little chats, we have the team throwing Cloud up towards Bahamut for no other reason that it looks cool, and ofc, we can't leave Aerith out so shes the last one to join in the chain throwing him through to kicking Bahamuts butt. Oh, and she commands the lifestream again to help Cloud and cure Geostigma.

For a dead character whose death is supposed to be this painful, final, thing... shes very, very much all over this thing and that in itself is underminding the OG more than Remake could ever do.

While some of you say that I need to go read the background more, I find they make it worse, not better... because shes all over those too, and being OP'd and given all these abilities. Its making it worse.

On the LTD I wholeheartedly believe its nothing but fan service, which shippers of both camps are taking and running with... building up into their own little things. If I were a Tifa shipper I'd be thoroughly upset at the compilation.


But... I am going over the entire compilation again, maybe I will have an epiphany. I'm giving it a chance to see it in a different way, but so far, I feel still like its a fan servicey spin off thats taking a massive dump on the characters and the OG while claiming not to.

 

[Stiggie]

I also think this isn't the place to discus it, it's been discussed ad nauseam in a dozen other threads so I won't go into "well that's because a..b..c.." style argumentation.

I'll just say that for me personally, while I never really saw the LTD as particularly valid, seeing it resolved basically with Aeriths death and the lifestream sequence, that I also never really understood Cloud when I was younger. So I also kind of went the "he treats Tifa like crap" route when thinking about AC.

But one day I literally woke up thinking about FFVII, and I wasn't quite sure why, but it's like I dreamed about it, and somehow while sleeping, my mind had worked something out, had come to some sort of realization.
I basically just woke up feeling like I understood Clouds character, and that day I kept thinking about it, I couldn't get it out of my head, I went over every scene in FFVII that I remembered, and every scene in Advent children, every action Cloud every took and all of a sudden everything was just so clear to me. Like there was only one story here, and it was so blatantly obvious that I was a bit ashamed I never really noticed it.

So then I watched Advent children again, and everything fit, everything.
And then I started doing research and looking up developer statements, and everything was exactly what I'd come to realize.


The moment I really realized what FFVII was about, and what Clouds character was about, was the moment the LTD just absolutely died for me, now I really can't take the "Cloud was an asshole to Tifa, clearly this is LTD bait" arguments seriously anymore. They're not, they can only be viewed as such in lieu of context, when you look at these points individually, some of them might seem to hold up, but not when you take in the big picture.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I mean it’s not like Aerith showing up everywhere is a regular thing that happens, nor does Cloud exist in a perpetual state of misery and constantly treats Tifa like garbage and never shows any interest as a result...it’s a rough patch that gets resolved in like what, a week after almost two years of being happy with her? The poor boy isn’t always suffering lmao though Square is guilty of flanderizing Cloud in AC, WoFF, and KH especially but there’s this thing called character development you see

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud was not flanderized in World of Final Fantasy. And considering the referenced conflict originates in AC, that's to be expected. You raise an accurate point about KH but I would suggest looking at World of Final Fantasy more closely if you somehow equate it to Kingdom Hearts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But, I'll reply to your question. I'll put in spoiler tags to collapse my reply and because it will include some spoilers

I appreciate your replying.

Understand that I don't think where you're coming from is altogether baseless. I just think it's an incomplete assessment, often built off misunderstanding, inevitably limited as it is by the lack of the full picture.

Not all of those misunderstandings are your fault, mind you, particularly where we're talking about AC. The movie watches like a fever dream, and I say that as someone who enjoys it.

But when you say something like this:

Spoiler

If they're trying to say something about Cloud and Tifas relationship then what exactly is it?

That Tifa will sit there laking care of two kids while waiting for Cloud to be interested? While he's off elsewhere, ignores her calls, and beats himself up over Aerith? That she will take that? That she will be miserable for him? That he can repeatedly hurt her and she will stay? That she will be there waiting like the good little girl that she is?

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding, as that's precisely the opposite of what was intended. The developers have talked at length about all that was intended.

Spoiler

We're actually looking at a situation where a very-much interested man, facing his mortality and believing that he's failed his family, goes into self-imposed exile to punish himself rather than further burden the family he believes he doesn't deserve.

And yes, it was dumb. Even arguably self-absorbed. None of what you describe with Tifa was the developers' intention, however, nor what they believe they conveyed.

Tifa has been patient about Cloud's recent disappearance, yes, but she is also justifiably angry. She tempers that anger a bit when she learns the full picture of what's going on (i.e. his infection) and puts her concern before her anger. But she lets him have it, too, when she sees that he's allowed himself to become so enfeebled with self-doubt that he not only won't try to help himself but won't try to help the kids either when she knows he can make a difference, even if he doesn't.

She can be and do all of those things because the developers did paint a multi-faceted picture of her character: strength, vulnerability, anger, compassion, maternal, formidable, concern for her own need, consideration of others' needs, etc.

Originally, Tifa was going to say "sorry" at the end of that scene in the bedroom. It was even animated and voiced. They took it out, though, because they recognized that Tifa was entitled to her feelings and they wanted to show her steadfast in her position. She lays into Cloud because he does need a wake-up call, and because she isn't going to wait forever for him to pull his head out of his ass.

If you missed it, I can understand why, but it's not because that's not the real story.

 

[KindOfBlue]

but I would suggest looking at World of Final Fantasy more closely if you somehow equate it to Kingdom Hearts.

Do they both not just boil down to “Cloud wants revenge on Sephiroth”? It’s a plot point that was resolved in the OG, yet it seems that’s all that gets attention in outside portrayals of Cloud. At what point in Cloud’s development is WoFF supposed to take place anyways?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud literally chooses not to seek out revenge when presented with the opportunity and instead stays with his friends to help defend Grymoire with Lann and Reynn. He becomes good friends with Terra and Lightning, not to mention Tifa as well.

Cloud never encounters Sephiroth in WoFF. He has one chance of going after him but he turns his back on it and sticks around with everyone.

This is why you should play it and see for yourself

 

[KindOfBlue]

Cloud literally chooses not to seek out revenge when presented with the opportunity and instead stays with his friends to help defend Grymoire with Lann and Reynn. He becomes good friends with Terra and Lightning, not to mention Tifa as well.

Cloud never encounters Sephiroth in WoFF. He has one chance of going after him but he turns his back on it and sticks around with everyone.

This is why you should play it and see for yourself

That last bit is weirdly dismissive, but my point is that it narratively puts Cloud in a similar position to what we’ve seen already being rehashed...was another story about Cloud learning the power of friendship really necessary? I think by itself it’s not a big deal, but when you factor in all the other portrayals of Cloud outside of the OG then it just feels redundant to me, not to mention that his side story still ends with him wanting to pursue Sephiroth anyways

 

[Makoeyes987]

The portrayal is distinctly opposite of Kingdom Hearts though because it doesn't end with him wanting to pursue Sephiroth, that's what I'm telling you. Any cameo appearance is going to by definition "rehash" certain aspects of a character's personality because that's what makes them identifiable, however the aspect that WoFF chose to focus on wasn't Cloud's obsession with pursuing Sephiroth and pushing people away to do it. It instead focused on his personality which embraces his friendships and people close to him. He states his goal of doing that but he rejects it because it would distance himself from his friends and he prioritizes their safety and friendship more than revenge.

It's that personality that is more in line with how he acts in FFVII after he reintegrates his true personality, versus Kingdom Hearts which features his Disc 1 persona where he's the aloof uninterested SOLDIER obsessively pursuing Sephiroth.

That's not the "flanderization" you're referring to. Those games do different portrayals. Equating those cameos as the same isn't accurate, since the "emo/standoffish" Cloud is seen more in Kingdom Hearts 1, 2 and the first Dissidia game.

 

[Fiz]

I appreciate your replying.

Understand that I don't think where you're coming from is altogether baseless. I just think it's an incomplete assessment, often built off misunderstanding, inevitably limited as it is by the lack of the full picture.

Not all of those misunderstandings are your fault, mind you, particularly where we're talking about AC. The movie watches like a fever dream, and I say that as someone who enjoys it.

But when you say something like this:



That shows a fundamental misunderstanding, as that's precisely the opposite of what was intended. The developers have talked at length about all that was intended.

Spoiler

We're actually looking at a situation where a very-much interested man, facing his mortality and believing that he's failed his family, goes into self-imposed exile to punish himself rather than further burden the family he believes he doesn't deserve.

And yes, it was dumb. Even arguably self-absorbed. None of what you describe with Tifa was the developers' intention, however, nor what they believe they conveyed.

Tifa has been patient about Cloud's recent disappearance, yes, but she is also justifiably angry. She tempers that anger a bit when she learns the full picture of what's going on (i.e. his infection) and puts her concern before her anger. But she lets him have it, too, when she sees that he's allowed himself to become so enfeebled with self-doubt that he not only won't try to help himself but won't try to help the kids either when she knows he can make a difference, even if he doesn't.

She can be and do all of those things because the developers did paint a multi-faceted picture of her character: strength, vulnerability, anger, compassion, maternal, formidable, concern for her own need, consideration of others' needs, etc.

Originally, Tifa was going to say "sorry" at the end of that scene in the bedroom. It was even animated and voiced. They took it out, though, because they recognized that Tifa was entitled to her feelings and they wanted to show her steadfast in her position. She lays into Cloud because he does need a wake-up call, and because she isn't going to wait forever for him to pull his head out of his ass.

If you missed it, I can understand why, but it's not because that's not the real story.

I don't mean to derail this, so I'll take it on board and I'll continue through the compilation and see if it changes my mind. However, while I appreciate what you've said, I still feel that its problematic, and they arrived at a certain destination. I also feel like the thing you said they cut, its presence in the first place, says a lot.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

There's a case to be made that the happiest moments in Cloud's life are when he is "traveling" and not bound to one location. And that the bad things all happen to him when he is stuck in a location he can't leave. In Nibelheim, he's the town pariah. It's not until he leaves and ends up in Shinra's Security Forces that he meets Zack (when they're in the middle of nowhere to boot) and finally makes a genuine friend. Then Cloud gets trapped in the Nibelheim Manor and gets experimented on and loses his sense of self in the process. The OG presents him as being... pretty happy to be traveling around with everyone else regardless of his mental state. So I could see Cloud having issues staying in one place all the time afterwards (even if he doen't realize that is what is going on himself). That he makes a business out of traveling around the Planet isn't that surprising. Riding around on Fenrir with the Fusion Sword is something he actively pursued after the OG ended. So it's safe to say he likes doing that.

Tifa meanwhile, is a bartender, and that is something she is apart from Cloud. She did it after Nibelehim burned and she's doing it after Midgar fell. She doesn't have a case of wanderlust Cloud does. However, she doesn't see Cloud leaving on his delivery jobs as Cloud leaving her. She isn't demanding he stop doing the job he likes doing and always comes back home from. Instead, she's worried when he leaves on what isn't a delivery job and then never comes back home or calls her. She's treating Cloud leaving on a job differently than Cloud leaving to go die. People can not be around while still being in a relationship in many different ways. Some reasons are fine (being away on a job) and others aren't (being away to not "burden" your family).

I also think it says something that in DoC, no one has a problem getting a hold of Cloud. He just shows up to the battle of Edge with everyone else without any drama. So he seems to have gotten over the communication problems he had in ACC. At least when it comes to picking up the phone when he recognizes the number.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Any cameo appearance is going to by definition "rehash" certain aspects of a character's personality because that's what makes them identifiable,

Personality’s one thing, but repeating a character arc? We already saw him learn this lesson before

He states his goal of doing that but he rejects it because it would distance himself from his friends and he prioritizes their safety and friendship more than revenge.

It's that personality that is more in line with how he acts in FFVII after he reintegrates his true personality,

This aspect of his personality isn’t exclusive to true Cloud though, we can already see this going back as far as him saving Tifa from Corneo or saving Aerith from Shinra...nah, his true personality is him being a dork more than anything

 

[Makoeyes987]

Personality’s one thing, but repeating a character arc? We already saw him learn this lesson before

That's literally every FF cameo. Show me one that isn't a repeat of their Greatest Hits from their most memorable character arc.

This aspect of his personality isn’t exclusive to true Cloud though, we can already see this going back as far as him saving Tifa from Corneo or saving Aerith from Shinra...nah, his true personality is him being a dork more than anything

It's not "exclusive" but it's more pronounced and less tsundere. Cloud's far more open with his feelings when he is himself. And yes, him being an awkward dork is part of that too. Which is also showcased in WoFF. It's not comparable to Kingdom Hearts at all.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Show me one that isn't a repeat of their Greatest Hits from their most memorable character arc.

If that’s truly the case, then I can’t say that’s a good thing

It's not comparable to Kingdom Hearts at all.

I think you’re too hung up on me mentioning KH and WoFF in the same sentence that you’re missing my point, I’m saying when you compile all of these portrayals of Cloud outside of the OG then it paints this picture of him who is constantly just brooding about revenge and needs to learn about friendship, and I just find it repetitive. Not that I think it really matters all that much anyways so I don’t know why you felt it necessary to split hairs, but I’m not even sure what point in time WoFF Cloud is from. Cloud’s hunting Sephiroth but Tifa’s still dressed like she’s 15?