- AKA
- TresDias
Cool. Let me get back to you on that in a bit, if @Shademp hasn't already beaten me to it. I'm going to try getting a nap in. This Covid vaccine has really kicked my ass.
FFVII Iceberg
- Thread starter Odysseus
- Start date
- AKA
- Ody
Gotcha
- AKA
- TresDias
Okay, done. I want to reiterate that the video is super cool and shows a lot of hard work. I'm not in any way crapping on it and had no intention of compiling all this until I was asked to. And yeah, even with as much as it is, there's still way more the video maker gets right than wrong.
---
Approx. 3:10 - This should say that the Jenova vessel was being controlled by Seph rather than Jenova.
Approx. 7:40 - The original game does have Barret mention that someone else founded Avalanche. It's during the party's first visit to Cosmo Canyon: "There was this guy who studied 'Planetary Life' here. He couldn't take things the way they were, so he went to Midgar to form AVALANCHE."
Approx. 8:00 - Vincent is chronologically closer to 50 than 57. He sealed himself away for about 23 years rather than 30.
Approx. 9:40 - Even I'll say this one is kind of nitpicky and inconsequential on my part, but Zangan only has the 128 students (including Tifa) rather than 128 students other than Tifa.
Approx. 13:45 - The Kaitai Shinsho journal entries haven't ever received an official English localization, but fans have gotten around to them. Not sure if he meant no official localization or no translation at all, though.
Approx. 25:30 - Lots of little things here in relation to the FFX-FFVII connection. "You can find this scientist man named Shinra" is a tad off because Shinra is a kid rather than a grown-up, and also you don't so much find him as he's just a member of your team from the beginning of the game. "Theories say he went to another planet and created the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company" is off because it's supposed to be his descendants who founded the company. Next, the comment from Nojima at the end of this segment is from the X-2 Ultimania rather than the VII Ultimania Omega; the FF Wiki got its citation wrong. Finally, the photograph in the Shinra museum does show someone wearing Shinra of the Gullwings's mask, but it's not necessarily him in the picture.
Approx. 29:45 - Gaia thing; though they could probably make some funny comment here about how that hasn't been given as the name in Japanese -- at least not until the Remake sequel blindsides all of us with it anyway.
Approx. 31:30 - Endorsement of the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is a tad odd. Is this just how an Iceberg video is supposed to work when you get to the more outlandish stuff?
---
Approx. 3:10 - This should say that the Jenova vessel was being controlled by Seph rather than Jenova.
Approx. 7:40 - The original game does have Barret mention that someone else founded Avalanche. It's during the party's first visit to Cosmo Canyon: "There was this guy who studied 'Planetary Life' here. He couldn't take things the way they were, so he went to Midgar to form AVALANCHE."
Approx. 8:00 - Vincent is chronologically closer to 50 than 57. He sealed himself away for about 23 years rather than 30.
Approx. 9:40 - Even I'll say this one is kind of nitpicky and inconsequential on my part, but Zangan only has the 128 students (including Tifa) rather than 128 students other than Tifa.
Approx. 13:45 - The Kaitai Shinsho journal entries haven't ever received an official English localization, but fans have gotten around to them. Not sure if he meant no official localization or no translation at all, though.
Approx. 25:30 - Lots of little things here in relation to the FFX-FFVII connection. "You can find this scientist man named Shinra" is a tad off because Shinra is a kid rather than a grown-up, and also you don't so much find him as he's just a member of your team from the beginning of the game. "Theories say he went to another planet and created the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company" is off because it's supposed to be his descendants who founded the company. Next, the comment from Nojima at the end of this segment is from the X-2 Ultimania rather than the VII Ultimania Omega; the FF Wiki got its citation wrong. Finally, the photograph in the Shinra museum does show someone wearing Shinra of the Gullwings's mask, but it's not necessarily him in the picture.
Approx. 29:45 - Gaia thing; though they could probably make some funny comment here about how that hasn't been given as the name in Japanese -- at least not until the Remake sequel blindsides all of us with it anyway.
Approx. 31:30 - Endorsement of the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is a tad odd. Is this just how an Iceberg video is supposed to work when you get to the more outlandish stuff?
Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
I had so much joy watching it! The feeling of impending doom and horror the further down the iceberg went was remarkable. It's just mindblowing how much work had indeed been put into compiling all of this first, and then equally much into creating the video.
I didn't get the feeling he was insisting on it though... Was he? He did mention that the planet was referred to as "Planet" in the game itself and that it was only in the manual that the planet's name was oddly revealed.I just wish the video creator hadn't insisted on Gaia being the name of FF7's planet.
Yeah, I wish he wasn't rushing through the contents so much. Sometimes it was hard to keep track of where one item was over and another one began.
- AKA
- Ody
This one might be my fault lol. I had trouble finding fan translations myself.
I don't know if "a fish's paradise" intends to re-upload the video with corrections but I've written the commentary below as though that's their intention. Fair warning, my feedback may come off as a bit ruthless.
6:03 "Buying the house at Costa del Sol"
If he is going to make a re-upload, I suggest he edit the voiceover to include the mention that you can rest up in the villa, rather than limiting the mention to a note where he corrects his own voiceover.
7:03 "Bugenhagen worked for Shinra"
The above statement is probably incorrect, though I'm sure @The Twilight Mexican or @Strangelove can tell me if my own assessment is correct. I recall them actually raising this point before but I can't find the forum posts.
Here is Cait Sith's line on the Highwind, spoken right before you go to visit Bugenhagen and ask for his advice on how they might stop Meteor.
JP version
This may actually be an error.
DeepL translation:
The term used here is 得意, which according to this online dictionary can mean...
- triumph, prosperity
- pride
- one's strong point, one's forte, one's specialty
- frequent customer (client, etc.)
The translator must have used the third meaning to extrapolate that Bugenhagen was a good "Shinra worker", but you need fewer leaps of the imagination if you simply translate it as "client/customer". Seeing as Bugenhagen never bought any weapons or mako, we can assume that he bought other tech from Shinra instead.
So this actually changes the iceberg so that the title is "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer" or "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer, NOT a Shinra worker".
But perhaps most egregious "flaw" is this part.
a fish's paradise: "Cait Sith tells you at some point but I honestly don't remember where"
I don't know if it's a style of iceberg videos, but saying "I couldn't be bothered to look this up" doesn't give a good impression.
9:05 "Fort Condor bad ending"
a fish's paradise: "I assume the bad ending is referring to how if you fail you are forced into a boss fight with the CMD.Grand Horn"
The bad ending can happen as a result of the final Fort Condor battle during the Huge Materia quest. If the enemy reaches the shack and you LOSE the fight against the CMD.Grand Horn, the fort is lost.
The party wakes up at the bottom of the hill, the rope leading you up to the fort is now gone and the Condor is now gone, presumably killed by Shinra troops. The dialogue here by the party, especially the unused text, heavily implies that the villagers were all killed as well. It's a super dark scenario.
14:17 "Unused text"
The TCRF article they link is woefully incomplete. It's easier to start reading than my own Unused Text Series, but I still recommend that he
link the Unused Text Series in the video description even if he won't mention it in the voiceover.
https://thelifestream.net/ffvii-the-original/final-fantasy-vii-the-unused-text-series/
15:07 "Chests covering unused background elements"
a fish's paradise: "This chest right here is actually covering up an unused sidequest pertaining to this book shelf"
There is no confirmation that the book shelf and its books were ever related to a sidequests.
Yes, it is curious that in the data this shelf has three books: One green, one red and one yellow, but with the green book never showing up in-game. Without any additional info to support a sidequest theory, it's equally likely that the books are merely a background element to embellish the scene.
Ergo, I disagree with the statement "actually covering up an unused sidequest".
15:23 "Mystery Panties"
a fish's paradise: "I assume this segment where you got them was cut out along with the other Honey Bee Inn content for being too icky"
Technically nothing wrong here, but in case he wants to edit the video to show the Mystery Panties being obtained, I point to this timestamp.
15:50 "Secret cave in Ancient city"
It is a pity that he doesn't go into the probable theory that the cave was an exit from the Ancient Forest, but I won't insist on this segment being expanded.
16:10 "Original resolution backgrounds"
While it is true that the low-resolution backgrounds have been AI-upscaled to match or surpass what the original drawings might have been, I feel that it is misleading to title this "Original resolution backgrounds". It should instead be titled for what it is, "Backgrounds upscaled with machine learning". Perfectly okay with commentary saying something like "upscaled closer to what the backgrounds might have looked like before they were compressed for the PS1".
16:41 "Unused Fields"
HYOU14 is a speculative name for a field only shown in promotional artwork.
For a consistent experience I recommend not including any field names during this montage of unused background (that way he can show the ice cavern no problem). Or whatever works for them, so long as the name HYOU14 is not attached to this promotional image of an unused ice cavern field.
18:34 "Black Materia in Icicle Inn weapon shop"
This section is fine as is, but in the field data this Black Materia is called "goods" and so was probably a placeholder for what would eventually show this weapon shop's goods. Just mentioning this in case the video creator decides to expand the content.
20:30 "FFVII CG Collection DVD"
a fish's paradise refers to these videos as "uncompressed" which is a bold claim to make. Definitely "less compressed" than the PS1 versions, but the DVD movies still suffer from conversion to the format.
a fish's paradise: "Thankfully there is a 1080p upload on YouTube for everyone to enjoy"
Each video in my playlist does technically allow you to choose "1080p", I don't remember if this is because of an error on my part or because of YouTube itself, but strictly speaking the videos are closer to 720p pr 480p. Changing to 1080p won't actually make the videos higher quality on YouTube. So the more correct commentary would be...
"Thankfully there is a YouTube playlist for everyone to enjoy these higher-quality cutscenes".
It would also make sense for him to actually link the playlist in the video description.
21:48 "European manual memory card ad uses an unused map background"
The name "HYOU14" is speculative. It's better if the video just skipped the speculative name at this point and mentioned that the background shows up in full in promotional FF7 material.
29:30 "Hell House evolved to prey on homeless slum dwellers"
I might once again be misunderstanding the iceberg format, but why is this popular fan theory mentioned as though it is confirmed fact?
Agreed that the fan theory is no crazier than Hell House itself and indeed makes sense but far as I know we don't have word-of-god as to how much Hell House was considered on the world-building/lore level. Ideally, each item on the iceberg make clear distinctions between fact, speculation and popular headcanon.
29:48 "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea"
It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
Future titles might introduce new lore and decide on a canon name for the planet but at the time of writing that has not happened.
32:12 "beating the final opponent in 3D battler"
"...that if you actually did beat the final opponent, this dude right here would challenge you. Probably not though."
The NPC decidedly does not challenge you so ending this segment with "Probably not though" irks my nitpicky side. I would have preferred if he ended with "They don't [challenge you]".
35:14 "Sephiroth infects Cloud with red lifestream"
a fish's paradise: "you can see this red lifestream substance come out of Sephiroth and absorb into Cloud"
At no point is the red lifestream seen touching Cloud and it always remains distinct from the green mako until the red energy is then purified by the green. I feel that this item is particularly awkward because it relies so much on assuming that the red energy enters Cloud off-screen. Is it a popular fan theory? Is the red energy supposed to explain how Sephiroth keeps himself alive "via" Cloud? (Big quotation marks because Sephiroth technically doesn't need Cloud to stay alive between OG and AC, he only needs the idea of Cloud) Without a better video script, this item doesn't work.
If he is going to make a re-upload, I suggest he edit the voiceover to include the mention that you can rest up in the villa, rather than limiting the mention to a note where he corrects his own voiceover.
7:03 "Bugenhagen worked for Shinra"
The above statement is probably incorrect, though I'm sure @The Twilight Mexican or @Strangelove can tell me if my own assessment is correct. I recall them actually raising this point before but I can't find the forum posts.
Here is Cait Sith's line on the Highwind, spoken right before you go to visit Bugenhagen and ask for his advice on how they might stop Meteor.
Cait Sith
“This's just between you 'n' me but…”
“That there Bugenhagen feller, used
to be a pretty handy Shinra worker.”
“Yep, he ain't never bought
no weapons or Mako though……”
JP version
{CAIT SITH}
「ナイショやけども……」
「ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅の
お得意さんやったんです」
「あ、武器と魔晄は絶対に
買いはらへんかったんですけどね」
This may actually be an error.
DeepL translation:
"It's a secret, but......
Mr. Bugen was a long-time customer of ours.
Oh, he never bought any weapons or anything."
The term used here is 得意, which according to this online dictionary can mean...
- triumph, prosperity
- pride
- one's strong point, one's forte, one's specialty
- frequent customer (client, etc.)
The translator must have used the third meaning to extrapolate that Bugenhagen was a good "Shinra worker", but you need fewer leaps of the imagination if you simply translate it as "client/customer". Seeing as Bugenhagen never bought any weapons or mako, we can assume that he bought other tech from Shinra instead.
So this actually changes the iceberg so that the title is "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer" or "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer, NOT a Shinra worker".
But perhaps most egregious "flaw" is this part.
a fish's paradise: "Cait Sith tells you at some point but I honestly don't remember where"
I don't know if it's a style of iceberg videos, but saying "I couldn't be bothered to look this up" doesn't give a good impression.
9:05 "Fort Condor bad ending"
a fish's paradise: "I assume the bad ending is referring to how if you fail you are forced into a boss fight with the CMD.Grand Horn"
The bad ending can happen as a result of the final Fort Condor battle during the Huge Materia quest. If the enemy reaches the shack and you LOSE the fight against the CMD.Grand Horn, the fort is lost.
The party wakes up at the bottom of the hill, the rope leading you up to the fort is now gone and the Condor is now gone, presumably killed by Shinra troops. The dialogue here by the party, especially the unused text, heavily implies that the villagers were all killed as well. It's a super dark scenario.
14:17 "Unused text"
The TCRF article they link is woefully incomplete. It's easier to start reading than my own Unused Text Series, but I still recommend that he
link the Unused Text Series in the video description even if he won't mention it in the voiceover.
https://thelifestream.net/ffvii-the-original/final-fantasy-vii-the-unused-text-series/
15:07 "Chests covering unused background elements"
a fish's paradise: "This chest right here is actually covering up an unused sidequest pertaining to this book shelf"
There is no confirmation that the book shelf and its books were ever related to a sidequests.
Yes, it is curious that in the data this shelf has three books: One green, one red and one yellow, but with the green book never showing up in-game. Without any additional info to support a sidequest theory, it's equally likely that the books are merely a background element to embellish the scene.
Ergo, I disagree with the statement "actually covering up an unused sidequest".
15:23 "Mystery Panties"
a fish's paradise: "I assume this segment where you got them was cut out along with the other Honey Bee Inn content for being too icky"
Technically nothing wrong here, but in case he wants to edit the video to show the Mystery Panties being obtained, I point to this timestamp.
15:50 "Secret cave in Ancient city"
It is a pity that he doesn't go into the probable theory that the cave was an exit from the Ancient Forest, but I won't insist on this segment being expanded.
16:10 "Original resolution backgrounds"
While it is true that the low-resolution backgrounds have been AI-upscaled to match or surpass what the original drawings might have been, I feel that it is misleading to title this "Original resolution backgrounds". It should instead be titled for what it is, "Backgrounds upscaled with machine learning". Perfectly okay with commentary saying something like "upscaled closer to what the backgrounds might have looked like before they were compressed for the PS1".
16:41 "Unused Fields"
HYOU14 is a speculative name for a field only shown in promotional artwork.
For a consistent experience I recommend not including any field names during this montage of unused background (that way he can show the ice cavern no problem). Or whatever works for them, so long as the name HYOU14 is not attached to this promotional image of an unused ice cavern field.
18:34 "Black Materia in Icicle Inn weapon shop"
This section is fine as is, but in the field data this Black Materia is called "goods" and so was probably a placeholder for what would eventually show this weapon shop's goods. Just mentioning this in case the video creator decides to expand the content.
20:30 "FFVII CG Collection DVD"
a fish's paradise refers to these videos as "uncompressed" which is a bold claim to make. Definitely "less compressed" than the PS1 versions, but the DVD movies still suffer from conversion to the format.
a fish's paradise: "Thankfully there is a 1080p upload on YouTube for everyone to enjoy"
Each video in my playlist does technically allow you to choose "1080p", I don't remember if this is because of an error on my part or because of YouTube itself, but strictly speaking the videos are closer to 720p pr 480p. Changing to 1080p won't actually make the videos higher quality on YouTube. So the more correct commentary would be...
"Thankfully there is a YouTube playlist for everyone to enjoy these higher-quality cutscenes".
It would also make sense for him to actually link the playlist in the video description.
21:48 "European manual memory card ad uses an unused map background"
The name "HYOU14" is speculative. It's better if the video just skipped the speculative name at this point and mentioned that the background shows up in full in promotional FF7 material.
29:30 "Hell House evolved to prey on homeless slum dwellers"
I might once again be misunderstanding the iceberg format, but why is this popular fan theory mentioned as though it is confirmed fact?
Agreed that the fan theory is no crazier than Hell House itself and indeed makes sense but far as I know we don't have word-of-god as to how much Hell House was considered on the world-building/lore level. Ideally, each item on the iceberg make clear distinctions between fact, speculation and popular headcanon.
29:48 "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea"
It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
Future titles might introduce new lore and decide on a canon name for the planet but at the time of writing that has not happened.
32:12 "beating the final opponent in 3D battler"
"...that if you actually did beat the final opponent, this dude right here would challenge you. Probably not though."
The NPC decidedly does not challenge you so ending this segment with "Probably not though" irks my nitpicky side. I would have preferred if he ended with "They don't [challenge you]".
35:14 "Sephiroth infects Cloud with red lifestream"
a fish's paradise: "you can see this red lifestream substance come out of Sephiroth and absorb into Cloud"
At no point is the red lifestream seen touching Cloud and it always remains distinct from the green mako until the red energy is then purified by the green. I feel that this item is particularly awkward because it relies so much on assuming that the red energy enters Cloud off-screen. Is it a popular fan theory? Is the red energy supposed to explain how Sephiroth keeps himself alive "via" Cloud? (Big quotation marks because Sephiroth technically doesn't need Cloud to stay alive between OG and AC, he only needs the idea of Cloud) Without a better video script, this item doesn't work.
Last edited:
- AKA
- TresDias
I meant to touch on this one myself and forgot. It's a fan theory that resulted from folks with either poor eyesight (in which case, condolences) or a poor handle on angular perspective seeing Sephiroth's red tendrils as entering Cloud because they overlap with his model in the center of the screen.
Of course, the perspective of the camera here is such that the red and green tendrils collide right in front of the camera (after it swivels from looking at Cloud straight on to looking down at him) in the air well above Cloud.
- AKA
- hitoshura
お得意さん is a set expression for a frequent customer or client, it's a bit weird to get 'worker' from that. i don't think i've ever seen it used to describe an employee or anything. plus given that cait sith/reeve is part of shinra it's probably not right to be referring to someone in his ingroup (if bugen were an employee) in a polite way like お得意さん if he's speaking to someone outside the group. i mean, he's a talking robot cat with a funny accent but still.
- AKA
- Ody
Okay, these are just a misunderstanding on how this format works. Dumb fan theories get presented in earnest, with the understanding that their placement low on the iceberg makes them untrue. He was just wrong about the Planet's name, but stuff like this is fine. Some people do make totally factual versions of these lists, but that wasn't my intention. The only change I'd make in the video would be presenting these items in a more speculative fashion. The red life stream one is literally taken from the TV Tropes FF7 WMG (Wild Mass Guessing) page.
This one's my fault. When I told him about it, that was my own speculation for why the books were like that, he probably took it as a fact.
Probably should have pointed this out to me when I originally made the image lol. It's not the video creator's fault I was mistaken.
Last edited:
- AKA
- TresDias
I thought this may be the case with the way the Daddy Vinnie thing was handled, but was likewise unsure.
- AKA
- Ody
I talked to him about that one, yeah he was just presenting it that way on purpose for comedy's sake.
The Blindfolded
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- The Birdwatcher
I wouldn't call them errors- but-
8:42 Gast is seen as a genius in FFVII. Sephiroth sees him as such, which is another reason why he compares Gast with Hojo- "the walking mass of complexes"- inferior. In FFVI, NPCs (a mother?) in Vector will call Dr. Cid a genius- Gast is Dr. Cid's direct parallel from FFVI. (Hojo is Kefka's parallel, and he blackmails(?)/forces? Gast to do work with him in a similar fashion to Kefka's actions with Dr. Cid (to force him to extract magic from Espers, etc.).
Also:
Secret of Mana>FFVI>FFVII
Makes sense with developmental history right? (Secret of Mana- 1991/1992, FFVI-1993-to early 1994, FFVII- pre-production-1995-production-1996).
Tell me that this:
Doesn't correspond with this:
Granted. I didn't find any concept art of the SOLDIERS from FFVII, and I know that in-game they have a lot more blue to them (on the head portion, etc.). But I find it interesting how much the Crisis Core, FFVII Remake (2015) trailer, and final version of the FFVII Remake has these soldiers line up with almost exact-gray helmets with a "cap" with three sections (mohawk top, side coverings, and then a side that wraps around the jaw area), then the gray pauldron coverings, though the Remake has this double-lapped (to reference Sephiroth's). There is a neck scarf, and most of the remaining outfit is blue.
Also, coincidental themes line up. I know Sakaguchi was said to have created the idea of the lifestream (I found an interview that says otherwise....https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/2006_Interview_with_Hiromichi_Tanaka_and_Koichi_Ishii.html), but the environmental themes are nothing new to Square's products- it seems to be from Secret of Mana.
Mana is also seen as a finite resource, with people arguing against the use of it in "video flashbacks". This is similar to finite use of Mako energy in FFVII's plot. Also, the use of the Mana Beast seems similar to how Weapons are utilized in FFVII- to destroy threats (weapons of war, humans' metal cities, etc. and restore Mana/lifestream). The Mana Beast was unleashed in response to how humans used Mana for war (Mana Fortress), which upset the gods in that game, so they sent it in order to destroy the Fortress (and it destroyed other places of human dwelling, apparently). The Weapons are unleashed originally (and I have read in some Ultimanias) because the planet gave up on humanity or saw it as a threat. In other cases, it seems to be to destroy Sephiroth (but they can't because of his shield). In another, it's to stock up on lifestream by destroying everything. In any case, the use of the Weapons are similar to the Mana Beast.
So, after the hodge-podge that was FFVI's plot, and I have proof of that:
"Creation[edit]
Final Fantasy VI entered development after the release of its predecessor Final Fantasy V in December 1992.[25] The development of the game took just one year to complete.[26] Series creator and director Hironobu Sakaguchi could not be as intimately involved as in previous installments due to his other projects and his promotion to Executive Vice President of the company in 1991.[25][27][28] For that reason, he became the producer and split director responsibilities for Final Fantasy VI up between Yoshinori Kitase and Hiroyuki Ito: Kitase was in charge of event production and the scenario, while Ito handled all battle aspects.[25][29] Sakaguchi supervised Kitase's cutscene direction and ensured that the project would coalesce as a whole. The idea behind the story of Final Fantasy VI was that every character is the protagonist. All members of the development team contributed ideas for characters and their "episodes" for the overall plot in what Kitase described as a "hybrid process".[25] Consequently, Terra and Locke were conceived by Sakaguchi; Celes and Gau by Kitase; Shadow and Setzer by graphic director Tetsuya Nomura; and Edgar and Sabin by field graphic designer Kaori Tanaka.[25][29] Then it was Kitase's task to unite the story premise provided by Sakaguchi with all the individual ideas for character episodes to create a cohesive narrative.[25][30] The scenario of Final Fantasy VI was written by a group of four or five people, among them Kitase who provided key elements of the story, such as the opera scene and Celes' suicide attempt, as well as all of Kefka's appearances.[27][31][32]"
Lack of connection caused a disparate plot to be produced, with Kitase's idea unifying the premise. The idea seems to be unification and a cohesive narrative than so much as inspiration or a direct idea or approach to writing the plot, and the story shows evidence of that, I think.
FFVII is still more straightforward than FFVI, with ties to the main story (i.e. Barett's backstory, Avalanche). Even Red XIII, who seems to be the least connected to FFVII's main plot, has ties to Cosmo Canyon, which is linked to main story ideas.
Why is FFVII more straightforward? Because it takes story/plot elements from FFIV and Secret of Mana. It also streamlines stuff from FFVI as well. I could literally give a 1-1 ratio of specific characters from FFVI, or at least cite combinations of characters that made their way into FFVII.
Look, when you've got a production that lasted roughly a year and four months for FFVI, and at most, a two-year production (really 1, but pre-production was in 1995) for FFVII, that had a emergency called for employees during the last three months of development, then things are going to be streamlined as can be. There is laziness in FFVI and FFVII in terms of plot and what happens, with creative differences coming from the staff. And much of that, I think, is because of the lack of time and inspiration in areas. Not everywhere- I think the psychological angle and detective/mystery angle paid off for FFVII, anyways.
Which Means:
Hiromichi Tanaka- the guy who supposedly ruined/mismanaged FFXIV is responsible for FFVII's plot.
8:42 Gast is seen as a genius in FFVII. Sephiroth sees him as such, which is another reason why he compares Gast with Hojo- "the walking mass of complexes"- inferior. In FFVI, NPCs (a mother?) in Vector will call Dr. Cid a genius- Gast is Dr. Cid's direct parallel from FFVI. (Hojo is Kefka's parallel, and he blackmails(?)/forces? Gast to do work with him in a similar fashion to Kefka's actions with Dr. Cid (to force him to extract magic from Espers, etc.).
Also:
Secret of Mana>FFVI>FFVII
Makes sense with developmental history right? (Secret of Mana- 1991/1992, FFVI-1993-to early 1994, FFVII- pre-production-1995-production-1996).
Tell me that this:
Doesn't correspond with this:
Granted. I didn't find any concept art of the SOLDIERS from FFVII, and I know that in-game they have a lot more blue to them (on the head portion, etc.). But I find it interesting how much the Crisis Core, FFVII Remake (2015) trailer, and final version of the FFVII Remake has these soldiers line up with almost exact-gray helmets with a "cap" with three sections (mohawk top, side coverings, and then a side that wraps around the jaw area), then the gray pauldron coverings, though the Remake has this double-lapped (to reference Sephiroth's). There is a neck scarf, and most of the remaining outfit is blue.
Also, coincidental themes line up. I know Sakaguchi was said to have created the idea of the lifestream (I found an interview that says otherwise....https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/2006_Interview_with_Hiromichi_Tanaka_and_Koichi_Ishii.html), but the environmental themes are nothing new to Square's products- it seems to be from Secret of Mana.
Mana is also seen as a finite resource, with people arguing against the use of it in "video flashbacks". This is similar to finite use of Mako energy in FFVII's plot. Also, the use of the Mana Beast seems similar to how Weapons are utilized in FFVII- to destroy threats (weapons of war, humans' metal cities, etc. and restore Mana/lifestream). The Mana Beast was unleashed in response to how humans used Mana for war (Mana Fortress), which upset the gods in that game, so they sent it in order to destroy the Fortress (and it destroyed other places of human dwelling, apparently). The Weapons are unleashed originally (and I have read in some Ultimanias) because the planet gave up on humanity or saw it as a threat. In other cases, it seems to be to destroy Sephiroth (but they can't because of his shield). In another, it's to stock up on lifestream by destroying everything. In any case, the use of the Weapons are similar to the Mana Beast.
So, after the hodge-podge that was FFVI's plot, and I have proof of that:
"Creation[edit]
Final Fantasy VI entered development after the release of its predecessor Final Fantasy V in December 1992.[25] The development of the game took just one year to complete.[26] Series creator and director Hironobu Sakaguchi could not be as intimately involved as in previous installments due to his other projects and his promotion to Executive Vice President of the company in 1991.[25][27][28] For that reason, he became the producer and split director responsibilities for Final Fantasy VI up between Yoshinori Kitase and Hiroyuki Ito: Kitase was in charge of event production and the scenario, while Ito handled all battle aspects.[25][29] Sakaguchi supervised Kitase's cutscene direction and ensured that the project would coalesce as a whole. The idea behind the story of Final Fantasy VI was that every character is the protagonist. All members of the development team contributed ideas for characters and their "episodes" for the overall plot in what Kitase described as a "hybrid process".[25] Consequently, Terra and Locke were conceived by Sakaguchi; Celes and Gau by Kitase; Shadow and Setzer by graphic director Tetsuya Nomura; and Edgar and Sabin by field graphic designer Kaori Tanaka.[25][29] Then it was Kitase's task to unite the story premise provided by Sakaguchi with all the individual ideas for character episodes to create a cohesive narrative.[25][30] The scenario of Final Fantasy VI was written by a group of four or five people, among them Kitase who provided key elements of the story, such as the opera scene and Celes' suicide attempt, as well as all of Kefka's appearances.[27][31][32]"
- "The Making Of... Final Fantasy VI". Edge. Future Publishing (251): 124–127. March 2013.
- ^ Ishaan (August 6, 2013). "Final Fantasy VI Took Just One Year To Make Says Director Yoshinori Kitase". siliconera.com. Archivedfrom the original on April 19, 2014. Retrieved April 28, 2014.
- ^ Jump up to:a b Parish, Jeremy (February 24, 2010). "Final Fantasy: Kitase's Inside Story". 1UP.com. UGO Networks. Archived from the original on May 26, 2016. Retrieved September 11, 2010.
- ^ "Hironobu Sakaguchi/Chairman and CEO". Square USA. Archived from the original on May 11, 2000.
- ^ Jump up to:a b c Square Co., Ltd. (April 2, 1994). Final Fantasy VI (Super Famicom) (in Japanese). Square Co., Ltd. Scene: staff credits.
- ^ "Interview with Hironobu Sakaguchi". Shūkan Famitsū. ASCII Corporation. June 5, 1998. Archived from the original on July 17, 2011."
Lack of connection caused a disparate plot to be produced, with Kitase's idea unifying the premise. The idea seems to be unification and a cohesive narrative than so much as inspiration or a direct idea or approach to writing the plot, and the story shows evidence of that, I think.
FFVII is still more straightforward than FFVI, with ties to the main story (i.e. Barett's backstory, Avalanche). Even Red XIII, who seems to be the least connected to FFVII's main plot, has ties to Cosmo Canyon, which is linked to main story ideas.
Why is FFVII more straightforward? Because it takes story/plot elements from FFIV and Secret of Mana. It also streamlines stuff from FFVI as well. I could literally give a 1-1 ratio of specific characters from FFVI, or at least cite combinations of characters that made their way into FFVII.
Look, when you've got a production that lasted roughly a year and four months for FFVI, and at most, a two-year production (really 1, but pre-production was in 1995) for FFVII, that had a emergency called for employees during the last three months of development, then things are going to be streamlined as can be. There is laziness in FFVI and FFVII in terms of plot and what happens, with creative differences coming from the staff. And much of that, I think, is because of the lack of time and inspiration in areas. Not everywhere- I think the psychological angle and detective/mystery angle paid off for FFVII, anyways.
Which Means:
Hiromichi Tanaka- the guy who supposedly ruined/mismanaged FFXIV is responsible for FFVII's plot.
Last edited:
The Blindfolded
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- The Birdwatcher
7:03 "Bugenhagen worked for Shinra"
The above statement is probably incorrect, though I'm sure @The Twilight Mexican or @Strangelove can tell me if my own assessment is correct. I recall them actually raising this point before but I can't find the forum posts.
Here is Cait Sith's line on the Highwind, spoken right before you go to visit Bugenhagen and ask for his advice on how they might stop Meteor.
JP version
This may actually be an error.
DeepL translation:
The term used here is 得意, which according to this online dictionary can mean...
- triumph, prosperity
- pride
- one's strong point, one's forte, one's specialty
- frequent customer (client, etc.)
The translator must have used the third meaning to extrapolate that Bugenhagen was a good "Shinra worker", but you need fewer leaps of the imagination if you simply translate it as "client/customer". Seeing as Bugenhagen never bought any weapons or mako, we can assume that he bought other tech from Shinra instead.
So this actually changes the iceberg so that the title is "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer" or "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer, NOT a Shinra worker".
29:48 "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea"
It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
Future titles might introduce new lore and decide on a canon name for the planet but at the time of writing that has not happened.
35:14 "Sephiroth infects Cloud with red lifestream"
a fish's paradise: "you can see this red lifestream substance come out of Sephiroth and absorb into Cloud"
At no point is the red lifestream seen touching Cloud and it always remains distinct from the green mako until the red energy is then purified by the green. I feel that this item is particularly awkward because it relies so much on assuming that the red energy enters Cloud off-screen. Is it a popular fan theory? Is the red energy supposed to explain how Sephiroth keeps himself alive "via" Cloud? (Big quotation marks because Sephiroth technically doesn't need Cloud to stay alive between OG and AC, he only needs the idea of Cloud) Without a better video script, this item doesn't work.
Well, I put the text that you supplied into Google Translate, and here is what came out:
`Naishoyakedomo……' `būgen-san wa mukashi kkara shinra no otokuisan yatta ndesu' `a , buki to makō wa zettai ni kai harahen katta ndesukedo ne'
[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
"Naisho burns ..."
"Mr. Bougen has always been in Shinra.
I did it as a good customer. "
"Oh, weapons and magic are absolutely
It was hard to buy, though. "
The "I" seems to be legitimate, as tinkering with the Japanese characters, don't change this to a "he" or "she" or anything like that. If that's true, then Cait Sith might be comparing himself to "Mr. Bougen", as in Cait Sith did it for the money, but Bougen had always been in Shinra. "Naisho" appears to be meaning a "close secret", so that is correct.
"お得意さんやったんです". I keep inserting this phrase into Google, and "Otokuisan" keeps popping up. "I did it as a good customer" might mean more along the lines of "Otokuisan, I did it". Or, "I did it Otokuisan". "Otokuisan" seems to be referring to some sort of (crafting) philosophy or person from the translated Google pages that I've come across. It could mean a style of buying.
Another phrase popped up:
"What from doing 've got to, what is this made've got to" seems to be an Otokuisan philosophy or something.
If the phrase:
It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
What about the cliff? It's in the game's files. ガイアの絶壁- Gaia cliff, or "Gaia of cliff", literally- Gaia no zeppeki. It was thought (among fans, from the later naming of the planet to be "Gaia" in the Compiliation and whatnot) to be implied that Gaia's cliff was referring to the name of the planet for some time.
The above statement is probably incorrect, though I'm sure @The Twilight Mexican or @Strangelove can tell me if my own assessment is correct. I recall them actually raising this point before but I can't find the forum posts.
Here is Cait Sith's line on the Highwind, spoken right before you go to visit Bugenhagen and ask for his advice on how they might stop Meteor.
Cait Sith
“This's just between you 'n' me but…”
“That there Bugenhagen feller, used
to be a pretty handy Shinra worker.”
“Yep, he ain't never bought
no weapons or Mako though……”
JP version
{CAIT SITH}
「ナイショやけども……」
「ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅の
お得意さんやったんです」
「あ、武器と魔晄は絶対に
買いはらへんかったんですけどね」
This may actually be an error.
DeepL translation:
"It's a secret, but......
Mr. Bugen was a long-time customer of ours.
Oh, he never bought any weapons or anything."
The term used here is 得意, which according to this online dictionary can mean...
- triumph, prosperity
- pride
- one's strong point, one's forte, one's specialty
- frequent customer (client, etc.)
The translator must have used the third meaning to extrapolate that Bugenhagen was a good "Shinra worker", but you need fewer leaps of the imagination if you simply translate it as "client/customer". Seeing as Bugenhagen never bought any weapons or mako, we can assume that he bought other tech from Shinra instead.
So this actually changes the iceberg so that the title is "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer" or "Bugenhagen was a Shinra customer, NOT a Shinra worker".
29:48 "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea"
It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
Future titles might introduce new lore and decide on a canon name for the planet but at the time of writing that has not happened.
35:14 "Sephiroth infects Cloud with red lifestream"
a fish's paradise: "you can see this red lifestream substance come out of Sephiroth and absorb into Cloud"
At no point is the red lifestream seen touching Cloud and it always remains distinct from the green mako until the red energy is then purified by the green. I feel that this item is particularly awkward because it relies so much on assuming that the red energy enters Cloud off-screen. Is it a popular fan theory? Is the red energy supposed to explain how Sephiroth keeps himself alive "via" Cloud? (Big quotation marks because Sephiroth technically doesn't need Cloud to stay alive between OG and AC, he only needs the idea of Cloud) Without a better video script, this item doesn't work.
Well, I put the text that you supplied into Google Translate, and here is what came out:
`Naishoyakedomo……' `būgen-san wa mukashi kkara shinra no otokuisan yatta ndesu' `a , buki to makō wa zettai ni kai harahen katta ndesukedo ne'
[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
"Naisho burns ..."
"Mr. Bougen has always been in Shinra.
I did it as a good customer. "
"Oh, weapons and magic are absolutely
It was hard to buy, though. "
The "I" seems to be legitimate, as tinkering with the Japanese characters, don't change this to a "he" or "she" or anything like that. If that's true, then Cait Sith might be comparing himself to "Mr. Bougen", as in Cait Sith did it for the money, but Bougen had always been in Shinra. "Naisho" appears to be meaning a "close secret", so that is correct.
"お得意さんやったんです". I keep inserting this phrase into Google, and "Otokuisan" keeps popping up. "I did it as a good customer" might mean more along the lines of "Otokuisan, I did it". Or, "I did it Otokuisan". "Otokuisan" seems to be referring to some sort of (crafting) philosophy or person from the translated Google pages that I've come across. It could mean a style of buying.
Another phrase popped up:
"What from doing 've got to, what is this made've got to" seems to be an Otokuisan philosophy or something.
If the phrase:
ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅の is linked up with お得意さんやったんです, then it could be that the "I" is actually a "he", "she" or some sort of connecting clause.
"ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅" as translated is "Mr. Bougen has always been Shin-Ra". The の, turns it into "Mr. Bougen has always been in Shin-Ra." Or maybe, the の, means "of" or "to". So, "Mr. Bougen has always been of Shin-Ra". Maybe this means that he's a patron of Shinra. Or, he's of the company.It is important to mention that no official guidebook or in-universe material actually identifies the planet as being called "Gaia". I should have given more feedback on the iceberg and insisted that this section be titled "The Planet's name is Gaia/Gaea...except it's not" for clarity.
What about the cliff? It's in the game's files. ガイアの絶壁- Gaia cliff, or "Gaia of cliff", literally- Gaia no zeppeki. It was thought (among fans, from the later naming of the planet to be "Gaia" in the Compiliation and whatnot) to be implied that Gaia's cliff was referring to the name of the planet for some time.
- AKA
- hitoshura
i was saying 'naisho burns...'
google translate seems to struggle with his accent and translates words as if they were standard/hyoujungo japanese. that's how it got 'naisho burns' instead of 'it's a secret/don't tell anyone, but...' it must not have pick up 'naisho' written in katakana, and mistook やけども (regional variant of だけども mean 'it is ~, but') for the word やけど which means a burn wound. that's also how it ends up giving 'i did' in the next line, where it takes やった (regional variant of だった) as the past tense of やる (the verb 'to do'). it also doesn't seem to register the line break properly so splits single sentences into two.
if you remove the line break from the second and third lines, you get a different result that are closer:
「ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅のお得意さんやったんです」
Mr. Bougen has always been a good customer of Shinra.
「あ、武器と魔晄は絶対に買いはらへんかったんですけどね」
Oh, I never bought weapons and mage, though.
('mage' is what it translated 'mako' as for some reason, even though with the line break it does 'magic' instead, and it doesn't connect the subject of the first sentence also being that of the second, so it defaults to 'i')
- AKA
- TresDias
All that's more than a bit of a stretch.
To start, the comments from the interview you linked speak only of FFVII recycling a setting in which all life is linked and each individual life is an equal part of a greater whole. Those comments do not claim credit for the Lifestream specifically, however.
Obviously the Lifestream is also a fixture of setting design holding that all life is linked and each individual life is an equal part of a greater whole -- but a river of green ectoplasm flowing through a planet's mantle is pretty obviously a different expression of that concept than the tree in "Secret of Mana."
Secondly, it's tremendously pertinent to point out and acknowledge that Sakaguchi isn't meant to be credited specifically with inventing the Lifestream itself -- i.e. the river of green ectoplasm flowing through a planet's mantle and serving as a specific expression of the concept that all life is linked and each individual life is an equal part of a greater whole.
Yoshinori Kitase has explained that he invented that specific expression of the concept for FFVII based on Sakaguchi's personal philosophy, which in turn was based on studying various cultures' notions about the nature of death and life of the spirit after death.
Third, Sakaguchi's philosophy that would be adapted into the Lifestream was something he developed in his personal life in the late 80s as a response to personal loss, and no one -- including neither Ishii nor Tanaka there in that interview -- has ever contested that. Until you just now. =P
In fact, the interview you linked points out that Tanaka and Sakaguchi joined Square around the same time and worked together over the course of several years on early FF projects, including during the critical period in question when Sakaguchi's mother died. Ishii worked with both of them on the same projects during that period, and he mentions (in the interview you linked) that inspiration for "Secret of Mana" was drawn from "all over."
(It also appears to be Ishii rather than Tanaka whom the "Sakaguchi-san also recycled that idea with lifestream in Final Fantasy VII" quote is attributed to.)
For all we know, Sakaguchi's philosophy influenced the development of SoM, then simply had influence again years later in the making of FFVII, a game that was also being designed to feature some similar themes. That is almost certainly a more viable notion than your suggestion.
Right, it's something that would make sense for that reason, but the point is that only English-language marketing materials or products have specifically identified the planet as such while Japanese counterparts to the same marketing materials or products haven't. That elicits doubt.
Sutsivoiran
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- AverageNoid
They straight up went and forgot about my man the Shinra manager 
Sutsivoiran
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- AverageNoid
I only noticed the Shinra managers reappearance the other day on my second playthrough. The video helped me to discover all sorts of weird stuff I've missed.
- AKA
- TresDias
The Johnny thing definitely deserves a place in the video. I remember so many arguments about that in the pre-Ultimania days.
- AKA
- Ody
Obstinate Melon made me aware of the issue originally, because he plays it up so much in his comic that Johnny is just this crazy weirdo that makes no sense. Apparently it used to be believed that Johnny wrote the letter you find in Tifa's room too. I saw it on the FF7 citadel somewhere. It's an easy mistake to make if you don't talk to the NPCs early on too much and don't meet Johnny's parents. Tifa says the other boys went to to Midgar, Johnny claims to be Cloud's "childhood friend" and lives in Midgar, so it kind of makes sense. A bit. Sorta.
Obviously everyone should know better by now though.
- AKA
- TresDias
That myth was perpetuated by a couple of fans (probably one and the same ...) who insisted that the Kaitai Shinsho confirmed this background for Johnny. After I imported the book to satisfy my own curiosity and provided scans of what little mention the book did have about Johnny, those folks vanished from the Internet.