SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 13 Spoiler Discussion

[crazyrabbits23]

I didn't have a lot of problems with the way the platedrop was handled. I felt myself in much more danger as I ran up the pillar: this danger, combined with the sense of urgency I felt (wanting to get to Barret) and the difficulty of finding the route, was pretty effective in heightening my stress levels. The moving death scenes went on a bit too long. I think it would have been more poignant if Jessie had died without getting any closure or any cute last words.

Yeah, those were my concerns too. Knowing that

Spoiler: (ending spoiler)

Biggs ultimately survives the pillar drop (the Chapter Select menu for that part even spoils it by saying he's comatose instead of dead) rings a bit hollow seeing it the second time around,

while Jessie's death is romanticized and goes on for too long - I feel the same thing could have been accomplished if they'd pared down the lines about wanting to have everyone over for pizza and her reaction to Tifa's crying just a bit.

That, and the Cait Sith reveal is going to be something that relies on future installments to make more sense - you can see in the reaction of new players that they're completely confused. The action just stops in the middle of a high-stakes moment (characters literally seconds away from death) so that an anthropomorphic Scottish cat with a crown and towel can show up. We, as long time players, know what it means and what Reeve is doing, but I still think the reveal would have been better saved for the Saucer.

 

[oty]

Should you spoiler tag that or no? I mean, I sure was surprised even with Chapter Select stuff.

But yeah, my biggest problem with the platefall is the ending. The ending pre-rendered CGI with Cait is....not good at all. I mean, no specific track? No "silent" moment with the sounds of screams like the OG? I dont know what they were thinking. And of course, the Cait scene which doesnt make any kind of sense considering the consistency of that whole segment.

 

[Clement Rage]

That just ends up punching a big hole in the characterisations of the Turks, though. Why do they do what they do? They're not loyal to Shinra. They're not afraid of the consequences of disobeying Shinra. They don't think that Shinra is a necessary evil or that destroying AVALANCHE is for the greater good.

They're completely unafraid of wriggling out of or defying their orders whenever they don't want to do something. So why is it that they go ahead and do this despite not wanting to? They're personally loyal to each other, but that's all, they don't care at all about any other Shinra or civilian lives. If they really don't want to do it, why did they?

It's not really an OG versus remake thing. My preferences play a role, but I really think this is a terrible writing choice. Everyone else within Shinra is written in a more one dimensional way (yes, I know about new recruit gate guard person, that's not enough) . Everyone except the Turks. It comes off like a ham fisted attempt to take responsibility away from the people that actually pulled the trigger. (I'm tempted to make a comparison to the Jedi and Anakin, but that's likely to be disputed.) The Turks get their nuance, but no one else does. If you write something properly, you don't need to break everyone else to make certain characters look good.

Re Tifa, it's just another achievement taken away from our lead characters. Both reactor bombings happened because Shinra allowed them to happen, now the Resistance at the pillar happened because it was allowed to happen too. Rude goes easy on Tifa in the OG, but it was never indicated that that was the only reason she survives, or that she couldn't kick the crap out of him in a fair fight anyway.

 

[oty]

Well, the Turks need that humanity to them. It's the trait that explains why can they be redeemed throughout the story, and specially after (like AC). And it can also explain why they distance themselves even more of Shinra, turning into a family of it's own, and stop following orders. I think you are reading too much into it. This isnt the Turks that defies everything Shinra says already. They obviously got their loyalty strained at maximum now because of the platefall.
Rude did lost in a fair fight, aka, the final fight before the button was pressed.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

They're completely unafraid of wriggling out of or defying their orders whenever they don't want to do something. So why is it that they go ahead and do this despite not wanting to? They're personally loyal to each other, but that's all, they don't care at all about any other Shinra or civilian lives. If they really don't want to do it, why did they?

Tseng says it point blank in Chapter 16 (I think?). There's a scene where Reno, Rude and Tseng are sitting in the latter's office. After Reno suggests that he's not happy with the way things went on the plate, Tseng tells him to take a vacation. Rude then points out his concerns with what they did, and Tseng tries to calm his conscience by telling him if they didn't drop the plate, someone else would have been ordered to.

I haven't seen any other evidence in the game yet that they can just willfully disobey orders at will. They're loyal to Shinra, and most of the time, we see Reno/Rude conducting business on behalf of Tseng, who gets his marching orders from the top.

Everyone else within Shinra is written in a more one dimensional way (yes, I know about new recruit gate guard person, that's not enough) .

In the OG? All the soldiers in Midgar were faceless grunts. I don't remember any single soldier having any kind of characterization until you hit Junon, and that was mostly for comic relief.

OTOH, the Remake has the gate guards, the soldier who recognizes Cloud (also the same soldier who recognizes him in the Shinra Building?), the soldier who freaks out and runs away when Cloud throws the sword into the window as they're escaping, and the soldiers arguing about their jobs with Reno in the church while Aerith is stuck. That's not counting the soldiers' terrified reactions to Roche at the upper-plate Shinra base, the information gleaned from the Assess tab, the reference to Kunsel or the unique variants like The Huntsman.

Everyone except the Turks. It comes off like a ham fisted attempt to take responsibility away from the people that actually pulled the trigger.

Ultimately, that was President Shinra's call, and the action stops for several minutes so that he and Barret can argue about the difference between Shinra and Avalanche, and why the former adopts the "end justifies the means" mentality. The Turks turned into comic relief as soon as you stepped outside of Midgar in the OG. When you meet them in the Crystal Cave(?) and Gongaga, Rude mentions having a crush on Tifa, Elena shows up and spoils the group's plans, and Tseng acts exasperated before walking off. This from the same group that tacitly oversaw the operation and displayed no remorse or conflict at doing the job.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I imagine they will alter their characterisation of the Turks throughout the whole game. Like I said before, Noima loves Rufus, and I think we are going to see a more rounded and nuanced development of his character. He'll still be ruthless, though.

Crazyrabbit, don't forget the trooper who is being bullied by Heidegger and threatened with the loss of his job, or worse, if he doesn't carry out Heidegger's erratic and impossible orders.

 

[jeronimus]

Even though I understand (and agree with) the concerns being raised in this thread, I think having the focus on Barret absolutely made up for it, and this is the first chapter that really succeeded at making me feel things.

Tifa's concerns for what might happen in previous chapters felt like stalling for time. The death scenes in the previous chapter felt needlessly dragged out - but the final scene of this chapter was wonderfully effective. Regardless of however many people actually die, Tifa saying they "returned to the planet", calling back to the phrase that Aerith uses in the flashback ties those two moments together. The flashback was great, not just because it was so true to the OG.

Do I think it's stupid that the Whispers whisk the party away to the exact place they were before they went underground? No doubt about it, but at this point there's no point in denying it. Yes, every time they appear I'll find myself thinking "surely there was a more elegant way to achieve the same thing", because they also start to feel like a tool that the writers can pull out to put things on track instead of, you know, writing a plot.

 

[Roger]

Rude did lost in a fair fight, aka, the final fight before the button was pressed.

If Rude had lost, he'd be down and out like Reno, not stonecold outmaneuvering everyone, pressing the button and living to tell about it.

 

[oty]

You dont need to be taken down to have lost, tho? He most certainly had lost that battle, given that there was no way in hell he could have possibly defeated Cloud and co. all by himself. He wasnt even going to press the button if it wasnt bc of the Whispers.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Fate was determined that those four nameless NPCs, the 3 Avalanche dudes Barret talks about later, and 2 of Wedge's 3 cats, should die.

 

[Roger]

You dont need to be taken down to have lost, tho? He most certainly had lost that battle, given that there was no way in hell he could have possibly defeated Cloud and co. all by himself. He wasnt even going to press the button if it wasnt bc of the Whispers.

He had strength to keep fighting, he allocated towards doing the thing they were there trying to stop him from doing. That's not losing. The Whispers were there from the beginning, it's only after the fight that Rude zips under Cloud's blade easypeasy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Whispers do block Barret's gunfire from stopping Rude, though.

 

[Roger]

The Whispers do block Barret's gunfire from stopping Rude, though.

Rude's affection for Tifa is the only reason he wasted his bombing runs and the minigun fire of his helicopter, the Whisper don't even break things even with that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just pointing out that he won (i.e. accomplished the Turks' objective) because he was rescued. He lost the fight yet won the battle.

 

[Roger]

Just pointing out that he won (i.e. accomplished the Turks' objective) because he was rescued.

They'd stopped trying to kill him by the time the helicopter arrives, he'd stopped trying to fight them too (nothing indicates that he couldn't, if he wanted too). He'd definitely already succeeded in doing what he entered that fight to do, they'd already definitely failed in what they entered the fight to do. One can argue that doesn't decide the fight itself but to say they beat him, is an overstatement. If they beat him, he'd be in Reno's conditions, who was meant to press the button and whom the whispers were obviously there to support.

 

[oty]

Wait, I'm not understanding things here. Rude missed Tifa, which is a cool little nod to his OG crush for her, nothing to do with the Whispers. Then came the fight in the Plate, Reno and Rude x Cloud and Co. Cloud and Co. very much beat the former, even completely incapacitating one of them (Reno). Rude rushes to the control panel, since he knows he cant beat the 3, and Barret would have very much hit him, Cloud and Tifa would have gotten to him, if the Whispers didnt intervene. Isn't that the set of events that happened?

 

[Clement Rage]

Uh, maybe don't talk about chapter 16 in the chapter 13 thread?

I'm skeptical of 'someone else would have been ordered to', because the Turks are specifically the dept for dealing with Shinra's scummy secrets, and that's not a good excuse even if it was true.

In the OG? All the soldiers in Midgar were faceless grunts. I don't remember any single soldier having any kind of characterization until you hit Junon, and that was mostly for comic relief.

OTOH, the Remake has the gate guards, the soldier who recognizes Cloud (also the same soldier who recognizes him in the Shinra Building?), the soldier who freaks out and runs away when Cloud throws the sword into the window as they're escaping, and the soldiers arguing about their jobs with Reno in the church while Aerith is stuck. That's not counting the soldiers' terrified reactions to Roche at the upper-plate Shinra base, the information gleaned from the Assess tab, the reference to Kunsel or the unique variants like The Huntsman.

The train guards are Shinra soldiers. We get bits and pieces of dialogue in the OG. You're right that it amps up once we hit Junon, but given nearly everything else is expanded in Midgar, we could very easily have had more conversations written in between Shinra military that were not about how lazy and callous they are. But they didn't.

What we do see largely plays them for comedic incompetence and callousness, and being the victims of comedic incompetence. It's all the same, little variety.

Rude does overcome Tifa when she's at the control panel, and earlier, when they're shooting, the implication is that Rude saves Cloud and Tifa's lives by interfering.

And earlier Reno doesn't press the button because he chooses to, not because he was stopped.

I've only seen those cutscenes once, so details may be wrong.

 

[oty]

How come they didnt? You got stern soldiers who are dicks, soldiers who refuse orders to save people, soldiers being bossed around and abused, soldiers being lazy, arrogant, dickish You even got freaking soldiers that recognize SOLDIERs (aha!). I dont see how is that not expanded from the original Midgar.

Rude saving Tifa is a cool nod to his OG crush. Reno not pressing the button comes down to his assessment of the situation, that he chooses to make it personal in order to deal with the weight of what he has to do. And them they both got their arses handled.

 

[Mayo Master]

Carrying on with my screenshots of the PS5 playthrough. To be honest, I'm always having a bit of a hard time to make a picture selection of all the snapshots I took (I probably took ~80 pics in this chapter), I hope you'll enjoy this set

Spoiler: Back to Elmyra's

 

[Mayo Master]

Spoiler: And back to Sector 7

 

[Mayo Master]

Spoiler: The underground base

I really like the pic of Barret on the bench - also taken when the screen faded to black, as discussed in other threads (the picture of Cloud sitting on the bench in the previous post was also with this method).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I noticed in my recent playthrough that the metal grille Tifa, Barret and Cloud fall through when they go down to find Wedge is miraculously back in place by the time Barret and Tifa fight their way back up to him.

Or is that chapter 14?

 

[Odysseus]

I noticed in my recent playthrough that the metal grille Tifa, Barret and Cloud fall through when they go down to find Wedge is miraculously back in place by the time Barret and Tifa fight their way back up to him.

Or is that chapter 14?

Wedge never falls, he's off to the side of the grate, near the area you fight the boss.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, I know. He's inside a big room like a hangar, but when Cloud, Tifa and Barret first follow the cat underground, just before they reach him a grating breaks under them and they fall further down into the secret lab and are separated. Then you control Barret for a while, and he makes his way back up and is reunited with Tifa, and the two of them find Wedge, and when they do, the grating they fell through is back in place.

 

[Odysseus]

No, I know. He's inside a big room like a hangar, but when Cloud, Tifa and Barret first follow the cat underground, just before they reach him a grating breaks under them and they fall further down into the secret lab and are separated. Then you control Barret for a while, and he makes his way back up and is reunited with Tifa, and the two of them find Wedge, and when they do, the grating they fell through is back in place.

Ooooh. Sorry I misunderstood. Yeah, that's definitely an oversight.