SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 13 Spoiler Discussion

[Odysseus]

I can see why fanfic writers wouldn't like it. When you pour your heart and soul into exploring and developing on the original in stories and fan art, seeing that world you loved so much get overwritten by something that doesn't always line up with your vision of things can be tough.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think you put your finger on it, Ody.

When I first came into this fandom I would eat up any and all fanfic I came across, with any and all pairings. My own headcanons weren't fixed then. I would even read fanfic about Genesis! Over the years I've noticed myself becoming less and less tolerant of any interpretations/headcanons that don't align perfectly with my own, and I really dislike that aspect of myself. I want to be able to enjoy Cloud/Jessie, or Sephiroth/Tifa, or Zack/Cloud, or Tseng/Elena (which let's face it is pretty much canon). I want to get the same simple pleasures out of fannish products that I got in the beginning, instead of turning all crotchety and "get-off-my-lawn" and "Tseng doesn't look like that!" about it, which seems to be the way I am going.

I really want to lovingly embrace everything about this fandom - even the more turbulent waters of the LTD. Even Scarlet/Scamp the Dog pornfic. Even the endless discussions about timelines and time travel. This is why I made the conscious decision to enjoy the Remake for what it is. At the end of the day, this game doesn't belong to me. It belongs to its creators and they are free to do what they like with it, and I want to be able appreciate the effort they made to create something meaningful for them - and, I think, for me. I think they wanted it to be meaningful for me, too.

Whatever they do with it doesn't invalidate what my own imagination did with the OG. The OG is a gift to the world which they cannot take back or over-ride.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I wonder what happened to Betty's mum/other dad/parent/family? Also is Betty supposed to be one of the children from Advent Children? I like that they gave Marlene a friend and that the player was given a chance to form a connection to her through Marlene, Aerith, and finding her again in c14.

 

[looneymoon]

I just had to use the example of wraithy things guiding Wedge to death as the example for my longer post for chapter 12

glad my man is alive and all, but this is a bit puzzling. onwards to chapter 14 I guess

 

[RhinoKart]

I know this is a silly question but I'm trying so hard to make sense of the passage of time in these last few Chapters...

So we head out to reactor 5 during the day, we run through some tunnels, climb around the underplate, fight airbuster and that is all one day. But when Cloud wakes up in Aerith's church is it the same day still, or was he there overnight, it's almost dinner time, so I guess it is the same day?

But then he stays at Aerith's house, leaves, climbs through the expressway, sees Tifa, does the entire wallmarket thing, wanders around some sewers, fights on the piller, and then goes back to Aerith's house? Is this the same night we left her house earlier?

In which case, what a day and night the team is having....

 

[Theozilla]

I know this is a silly question but I'm trying so hard to make sense of the passage of time in these last few Chapters...

So we head out to reactor 5 during the day, we run through some tunnels, climb around the underplate, fight airbuster and that is all one day. But when Cloud wakes up in Aerith's church is it the same day still, or was he there overnight, it's almost dinner time, so I guess it is the same day?

But then he stays at Aerith's house, leaves, climbs through the expressway, sees Tifa, does the entire wallmarket thing, wanders around some sewers, fights on the piller, and then goes back to Aerith's house? Is this the same night we left her house earlier?

In which case, what a day and night the team is having....

The Reactor 5 bombing run is implied to start in the morning. Chapters 8-13 occur during the afternoon, evening, night, and late hours of that same day (and technically the night-time a.m. hours of the next day).

 

[RhinoKart]

The Reactor 5 bombing run is implied to start in the morning. Chapters 8-13 occur during the afternoon, evening, night, and late hours of that same day (and technically the night-time a.m. hours of the next day).

Okay, thanks! I wasn't sure because I felt like the airbuster fight was occurring at night but that didn't seem to really fit with Aerith's response when Cloud wakes up. Also from leaving Aerith's house to the plate drop just felt like so much to happen in one night.

 

[Theozilla]

Okay, thanks! I wasn't sure because I felt like the airbuster fight was occurring at night but that didn't seem to really fit with Aerith's response when Cloud wakes up. Also from leaving Aerith's house to the plate drop just felt like so much to happen in one night.

Oh wait you are right that the Aribuster fight does appear to take place during night-time, so either that's an inconsistency or Cloud actually wakes up during the morning of the day after the Airbuster fight. Guess Aerith had been trying to wake him up since dawn then if she actually witnessed his crashing through the roof?

 

[ForceStealer]

I always thought Cloud was coming to the next morning.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe she just found him there like that.

 

[Theozilla]

I always thought Cloud was coming to the next morning.

If the Airbuster fight being at night isn't a visual continuity error/inconsistency, that does have to be the case.

Maybe she just found him there like that.

Her dialogue, at least in English, implies she also witnessed him falling through the roof though. And since it was still dark-ish when Cloud fell from Reactor 5, it creates the implication Aerith must have been trying to wake him for at least a couple of hours.

 

[ForceStealer]

No he startled her coming through the roof. But yeah it just took him awhile to wake up. Doesn't have to be that long. It doesn't take between just before dawn and the sun being up. An hour, maybe two.

 

[Odysseus]

You'd think she'd go get her doctor friend if cloud was out for a few hours

 

[ForceStealer]

I doubt Aerith has any trouble determining whether someone is near death or not. Especially if he was muttering in his dream-thing

 

[Theozilla]

I doubt Aerith has any trouble determining whether someone is near death or not.

Especially since, as mentioned earlier, Aerith's already had specific experience in dealing with men falling from the sky before (hallelujah).

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Especially if he was muttering in his dream-thing

She did seem to know a lot about Cloud. I would choose to believe that it's because he was spilling the beans in his sleep over this time around she's more aware of the events of the OG.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Now back at chapter 13 on Hard mode. I took so many screenshots in chapter 12 ?

 

[Gazzdw]

Thought this was another excellent chapter with the addition of the underground lab. Loved laying the seed for the potential fight later with a certain beast.

Only thing I HATED more than any single thing in the plot so far was the whispers just suddenly pushing the group away. I cant extend my belief that they literally just pushed all the way down those tunnels, all the way up back to the exit, so ridiculous. It was like how a child would write how to get out of the situation.

But aside from that, loved every second of this chapter.

 

[Odysseus]

Thought this was another excellent chapter with the addition of the underground lab. Loved laying the seed for the potential fight later with a certain beast.

Only thing I HATED more than any single thing in the plot so far was the whispers just suddenly pushing the group away. I cant extend my belief that they literally just pushed all the way down those tunnels, all the way up back to the exit, so ridiculous. It was like how a child would write how to get out of the situation.

But aside from that, loved every second of this chapter.

I don't know if this would improve your opinion, but when they find Wedge they're right by the entrance, they aren't deep underground anymore. They didn't go very far when the Whispers pushed them.

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler: ch 12

They did it, you guys. They actually did it. They undermined every other character in the game to prop up the Turks. Thank you, Rude, for deliberately swooping to save Tifa and Cloud. Can't let our leads have any unassisted accomplishments, can we?

And Tseng spots Aerith on the ground among the 50,000 people in sector 7 (Reeve has dialogue to this effect). And confronts her in Seventh Heaven, just to make the whole thing even dumber. They took out him striking her too.

Aargh, that whole fight. At least the ghosts intervene to keep them alive, but still, the whole thing is silly. Yeah, Reno, climb over that fence, no way they can reach you there.

It's a well tailored action scene and a tense sequence, but it's so strange. The entire rest of Shinra has had their skills played down so far, moving towards comedic incompetence and callousness, from the execs to the infantry. Everyone but the Turks. Their skills get played up instead and they even get sympathetic moments right after pulling the trigger.

Spoiler: ch 13

They sort through the survivors and it's a good scene, strange we don't get any subquests to pull people out of rubble and such. Sector Seven's in surprisingly good shape when they're done. I die against Fat Chocobo again as we pass Chadley, run past as many encounters as possible, and then we fall into a lab. A Barret perspective is nice, they should probably have done this more so we get to adjust to everyone's combat style. We wander around the hidden labs, which I'm a little dubious of, as it raises the question of why more of DG didn't escape sooner, and then face a difficult encounter against a failed experiment.

In line with Hojo's usual priorities, the failed experiment is more dangerous than the successful ones. I die the first time, and it comes down to the wire the second time. I have to use some of my Elixirs to survive, which is painful for me as a gamer, I normally hoard them all til the final dungeon.

Hmm... I dunno about this. Seems like a needlessly elaborate way to motivate us to go after Aeris, you could do things just as easily by having us linger in the aftermath of Sector 7 for a while until we find a way up.

So, Wedge is alive for now. Against the will of the ghosts, or did they allow it since enough other things were kept on track? Kind of interesting to see that for once things have not yet lined up with the OG

On the plus side, we're now past sector 7, which was hanging over me from the start of the game. On the minus side, I wasn't very happy with it.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

The entire rest of Shinra has had their skills played down so far, moving towards comedic incompetence and callousness, from the execs to the infantry. Everyone but the Turks. Their skills get played up instead and they even get sympathetic moments right after pulling the trigger.

I'd rather see that than the way the Turks were presented in the OG. Maybe it's just because I didn't play the game fully until I was older, but I was never happy with the way the Turks (or the collapse of Sector 7) was presented.

Yes, people point to the trainman at the station as evidence of well-written dialogue in the OG (talking about how he has nowhere to run to) before the plate falls, but actually playing that moment, after years of hearing about it, angered me. Some of the residents flee the area, while others just seem content to stand around and gawk at what's happening. You can choose to be a dick to the dying Avalanche members... which is just there for flavour and has no impact otherwise, with half the lines treating it like some random conversation they're having in the middle of the day. Reno gets his ass kicked by the entire party and is still no worse for wear, pressing the button with no remorse whatsoever. The plate falls, and with the exception of a couple of characters afterwards, it's never brought up for the rest of the game, while the Turks are relegated to comic relief that the game keeps throwing at you in an attempt to distract you.

I never understood why the OG made it so that you could refuse to fight the Turks in the Midgar tunnels during the Raid, because I was so pissed off at those characters by that point that I wanted to destroy them. Reno was this game's version of a "Karma Houdini", and I had no interest as a player in wanting to see them get off scot-free for what they did. I'm incredibly glad the devs opted to give the Turks nuance and morality (they don't want to do the job, but have to follow their orders) versus the one-note way the played that moment in the OG, and I love that sequence otherwise.

 

[Odysseus]

I wish I could like that post more than once.

Ive seen people say the plate drop lacked impact in the remake, and maybe the cutscene itself did, but everything before and after was much more well handled. The Turks having morals, the citizens of sector 7 crying and trying to remain calm, it was all great. You could tell this had a lasting effect on both the party and Midgar at large, rather than being immediately forgotten like in the original.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thank you, Rude, for deliberately swooping to save Tifa and Cloud. Can't let our leads have any unassisted accomplishments, can we?

Rude has always gone easy on Tifa, though, including in the original game.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't have a lot of problems with the way the platedrop was handled. I felt myself in much more danger as I ran up the pillar: this danger, combined with the sense of urgency I felt (wanting to get to Barret) and the difficulty of finding the route, was pretty effective in heightening my stress levels. The moving death scenes went on a bit too long. I think it would have been more poignant if Jessie had died without getting any closure or any cute last words.

I really don't think the writers had any choice but to give Rude and Reno a conscience. You'd have to be Sephiroth-levels of psychopathic not to at least question the morality of dropping a zillion tons of concrete on thousands of innocent people's heads. And a character like that has no scope for development. Soldiers in real life do this kind of thing all the time - drone-bombing a wedding party in Afghanistan is qualitatively no different from a plate drop. Soldiers do it and struggle with what they did under orders for the rest of their lives. If the Turks are going to be interesting secondary characters, then the plate drop should represent some kind of turning point for them, even if all it represents is their awakening to the truth that the organisation they serve is wholly evil. (It's that "Are we the bad guys?" moment). However, that awakening is somewhat redundant since the man who made Shinra evil is almost immediately killed and the company is taken over by a man to whom the Turks owe personal loyalty.

Reno is able to block out the voice of his conscience by making the battle personal (which is why I love the line "It's nothing personal, bitch"). Let's suppose no one was up at the top of the pillar standing between him and the execution of his orders. Would he still have been able to press the button in cold blood? We'll never know. The fight between Reno and Avalanche allowed him to focus solely on winning and not on what the consequences of winning would be. Rude is able to block out the voice of his conscience by focusing on supporting and saving his partner.

 

[ForceStealer]

I didn't have a lot of problems with the way the platedrop was handled. I felt myself in much more danger as I ran up the pillar: this danger, combined with the sense of urgency I felt (wanting to get to Barret) and the difficulty of finding the route, was pretty effective in heightening my stress levels. The moving death scenes went on a bit too long. I think it would have been more poignant if Jessie had died without getting any closure or any cute last words.

Agreed, especially the intensity felt when trying to desperately climb the pillar. Even though I knew what was happening I felt stressed to get there "in time"