SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 17 Spoiler Discussion

waw

waw

Pro Adventurer
Obsidian Fire said:
*makes a note to track down what the JP OG says there given the myriad localization issues it has*
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Rufus is pretty diabolical in BC and doesn't seem to care much about the people or AVALANCHE, which he manipulates to his own ends, I feel. So I am very interested in this line in the JP OG. Please share it if you find it! I feel that Rufus was originally a total magalomaniac until post OG, when fandom, interest, and his damn good looks get the creators to reform him a bit.

Reno killed how many people with the plate drop? But he's a comic relief, lovable dude in AC. Rufus is a total BAMF who genuinely seems to care about repairing the planet. The writings there make me feel he had a real "Come to Minvera" moment when he's staring up at the Big R in his father's escape hatch. The end of the world changed these characters, I think.

At the same time, OF, if you find evidence of Rufus speaking about profits/efficiency over power to support that reading of the character, I'd love to see them. I don't really recall it.

The Twilight Mexican said:
The Ultimanias point out the irony of Rufus embracing becoming protector of the people when he had so casually spoken of ruling them with fear -- so, nope, it's not a localization misfire. He just understood himself to be very different than he actually was (which became even more clear in "On the Way to A Smile," as he's forced to deal with someone genuinely sadistic, and finds himself repulsed).
Click to expand...

Thanks for this! I'm curious where they'll go with Rufus now. If they make him too much of a megalomaniac in early Remake stuff, before his turn, they risk making fans not like him. Maybe that's why that quote isn't prominent yet in Remake. Hmm.
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
BC is a bit weird when it comes to Rufus because it takes place over a period of seven years. Quotes from Rufus at the beginning are... rather different from quotes of Rufus at the end. To the point SE even gave Rufus different character portraits to get across the change in attitude.

Rufus goes from using AVALANCHE for his own ends to assassinate his dad at the start to lying to his dad (and the rest of Shinra!) about what the situation at the end of BC is with the Turks for... really no reason. The most he "gains" from it is the loyalty of a bunch of people he just got declared legally dead (and so aren't going to be able to really do anything for him in Shinra in the future) and the three people who still work for a company he doesn't even run yet (Tseng, Rude and Reno). Heiddegar and Scarlet hate the Turks because they know they were betraying Shinra for the past few months before the OG and as a result they don't like Rufus from keeping the "surviving" Turks from being executed.

This is a... pretty big shift from how Rufus was at the start when he really didn't care what happened to AVALANCHE. And the Turks full well knew it. It was part of why President Shinra put Rufus under... essentially house arrest under the Turks. They were the ones who figured out he was a "traitor" to Shinra orriginally. Five years later... sometime in Rufus' stay with the Turks he became loyal enough to them to lie about them to everyone else in Shinra for basically no political gain. There's a reason Heiddegar and Scarlet are not happy about Rufus being the President in Remake; they already know who his favorites are and it's not them. It would be Tseng.

If you want to read more about BC, this is the best repository of scripts nowadays: https://turkleader.tumblr.com/bcepisodes

Before Crisis is probably the best perspective to get a feel for how President Shinra runs his company and how the other company executives interact with each other and the Turks. It's a lot less about efficiency and a lot more about saving face and PR.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
There's a pretty good scene in Before Crisis between Veld and President Shinra where Veld is pretty clearly describing that concept and says it shapes Shinra's policy/response to situations. Shinra is more than happy to operate an economic *loss* so long as it's reputation stays intact.
BC said:
Veld
Sir. I’ve received the latest report on the stronghold.

President Shinra
Did we get the ringleaders? As long as they’re alive, the organization will carry on.

Veld
They’ve all been eliminated.

President Shinra
Oh! That means AVALANCHE is completely destroyed.

Veld
Be that as it may, the aftereffects of AVALANCHE’s activity are widespread. The world’s trust in Shin-Ra has been compromised.

President Shinra
We’ve let AVALANCHE do what they’ve wanted until now…

Veld
It’ll be necessary to consolidate the company’s reputation once more.

President Shinra
There’s an event being planned now, isn’t there? The world’s first rocket launch. The launching ceremony will be broadcast around the world. Begin preparations.

Veld
Yes, sir.
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In fact... Rufus at the start of BC doesn't care anything about his or Shinra's reputation. He's backing the people who are trying to destroy Shinra's reputation himself and constantly badmouthing whatever Shinra is doing *because* it make no economic sense. By the end of BC, he's a lot more respectful of both his Father and Shinra's reputation. And he still manages to get his own people out alive while saving face at the same time. Which is a signal he'll be a *good* leader of Shinra later on and his father is very happy at how the outcome turned out.

You could almost sum up the plot of BC by saying it's a conflict between groups of people who ensure that Shinra saves face. Only... the Turks are genuinely personally loyal to each other, so being.... callous... with each other's lives isn't seen as an option for them. And that personal loyalty put them at odds with Shinra's goals on more than one occasion. Heidegger and Scarlet and AVALANCHE aren't loyal to the people working for them, so they have no problems with spending lives without regard. Rufus' emotional arc is him learning how personal loyalty works while also saving face at the same time.

I think this is what causes some of the cognitive dissonance in FF7 about Shinra for Western Audiences. Because... the business culture of the West is a lot more... honest... about the nature of business culture in general. Everyone knows there's a general kind of sleazy underbelly to it and the top layer of that isn't seen as worth hiding. Meanwhile, Shinra is spending *tons* of capital and hours keeping a lid on it. And from an economics standpoint, it doesn't make sense.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
@waw Here's the reasons BC gives for why Shinra doesn't have Aerith yet... and why the President wants her.
BC said:
President Shinra
It seems we’ve received reports of the Ancient’s movement.

Veld
Yes, sir. I’ve sent Tseng out to apprehend her.

President Shinra
How many years have you been trying to capture her with no success at all, Veld?!

Veld
We’re using all available resources to locate and capture her, sir.

Rufus
Send out the army, President. The Turks will only take up precious time and labour. The Ancient won’t be able to put up much of a resistance if she’s got a bullet in her, will she?

Veld
Let’s think about this rationally for a moment. We need to get the location of the Promised Land from her.

President Shinra
That’s right. The Promised Land is a legendary place nobody but the Ancients would know the location of. If she is harmed before we can get the location, all of our efforts will have been for nothing.

Rufus
……

President Shinra
The Promised Land… A place that spews forth boundless Mako. If we have the Promised Land, we can draw Mako out without using the reactors. We’ll be cutting costs and ensuring that the company stays at the top for ages to come. When I think about it that way, the time we’ve invested isn’t a waste.

Rufus
Hmph. The time that’s being wasted with all these unnecessary precautions cancels out any good that might come from it.

Veld
……
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As for why Tseng personally hasn't turned Aerith in even though he very well knows where she is...
BC said:
Player
Tseng… don’t go after her.

Tseng
Player, get yourself under control. I’m not going to do anything to her.

Player
But… the company wants Aerith, right?

Tseng
That’s true. They’ve placed much on her capture.

Player
And that’s why you’re after her.

Tseng
No, you’re wrong. I wanted to see if I could get Aerith’s cooperation. I’m not just doing this because it’s my job. It’s all part of my plan.

Player
Your plan?

Tseng
Aerith’s cooperation is the world’s salvation. Her cooperation means that the world will be a better place for everybody. That’s why I want her cooperation. But… She doesn’t want anything to do with Shin-Ra.

Player
I see. That’s why this isn’t over.

Tseng
It doesn’t matter how long it takes. I’ll wait for her as long as I have to.
Click to expand...
BC is like... the story of how a bunch of people's personal values interact with Shinra's general policies on various topics. With the Turks having at least some personal lines they *really* don't like crossing while the other higher ups don't have any personal lines to speak of.
 
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C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Rufus had characterisation creep from the OG. When he was killed in at the end of disc 2, he never did turn over a new leaf. When they brought him back for AC, they needed to defang him so he could plausibly be alive and out of jail.

So we have this weird faux redemption where he seems to want people to trust him, but doesn't want to actually earn their trust by, for instance, not lying to people.

Old Prez knew that the Promised Land might well be a baseless legend, he says as much when Barret calls him on it in Shinra HQ. He just figures, hy might as well give it a shot.

Prez: Even so, it's just too appealing not to pursue.

I miss the 'rule the world with fear' speech, because without it, we don't really learn anything about Rufus other than that he's pretty and badass, so the scene doesn't have much of a point anymore.
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I do expect we'll still hear that speech in the next game, probably during an encounter with Rufus during the time of his inauguration ceremony.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Maybe, but if he does deliver it, it'll be slightly tongue in cheek, unless Nojima plans to backtrack on all that Rufus character building he's been doing since the OG came out. That Rufus is a pretty chilly and ruthless individual, but he also has a clear sense of right and wrong and is not gratuitously cruel. He also has a lively sense of humour dominated by an awareness of the absurdity of life. He wouldn't aspire to rule people with fear just because he can. I hope they don't go down the road of characterising him as someone driven by pure love of money, that would make him rather uninteresting. and also less believable. People who grow up surrounded by all the money they could possibly want tend to take it for granted. Power hunger, now, that makes sense.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
True, but people who are innately cruel don't suddenly become not innately cruel, and people who love money for its own sake don't suddenly become people who take money for granted. No matter how great the epiphany.
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I don't think the speech fits in Junon, because he's not talking to known enemies privately. He's not going to make a speech saying 'I'm not going to waste money on you gullible idiots anymore' to said gullible idiots.

That was the interesting thing about Rufus, he believes he's so very different from his father, but acts very similarly. his mission statement is not to waste money on extravagant cover ups and scapegoats any more, but the first thing he does is throw a giant unnecessary parade celebrating the new era. When he sees the mako in the North Cave, he's on board with Neo-Midgar 'this truly is the promised land'. When Crisis hits, he takes a leaf right out of his old man's playbook, in staging an elaborate execution of AVALANCHE as scapegoats and covering up the real problem.
 
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