SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[MelodicEnigma]

I think the two universes being joined, and sephiroth showing the edge of creation cosmos, is not a coincidence

Definitely don't think that's whats happening there, but it's fair enough to think that. It's all pretty different, after all.

I remember someone years ago saying it would take a picture of kid Shinra in the Shinra Company as one of the founding members of the family, to make them believe it was more than an "Easter Egg."

I mean, considering that's one of many literal applications of an Easter Egg in media, it's still in the scope of that. That isn't enough to provide the certainty of a shared continuity, but it definitely makes for the interest of speculation.

And FFVII and FFX wouldn't be the first entry to take place in the same universe.

FF Tactics->Vagrant Story->FFXII say "what's up." They've been in a shared universe since 1998.

That's a VERY specific application, that has also been very upfront about as well. They even have a title for it. If the creators decide to do the same with FFX and FFVII, we'd go well beyond what we have.

 

[Noble0ne]

...at least that is a implication if only as a Easter egg implication

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Edge of Creation was more than likely Sephiroth's grandiose name for the space they were in. Since it was on the edge of the past, present and future. And he was about to begin the creation of a new future with himself as a God.

 

[Noble0ne]

Looked like a good fit to bugenhagen source point everything returns to, to me.

But believe or not, I agree with ya

 

[OWA-2]

There's more than that. Aside from the actual X-2 scene, there's Dirge of Cerberus and the Sierra, with the conversation Cid has about the Sierra airship utilizing unknown alien technology.. Not to mention its interior looking extremely similar to airships from the world of Spira.



Okay and that applies to literally anything.

And who said that? There are plenty others who have not expressed that at all and don't find an evocative reference to KH as a negative. They see it as a possitive.

Dude, even KH fans complain about it's convoluted plot. And everything is pointing to FFVIIR going the same direction.

 

[Wol]

I remember someone years ago saying it would take a picture of kid Shinra in the Shinra Company as one of the founding members of the family, to make them believe it was more than an "Easter Egg."

And look where we are now.

People can keep sleeping on him all they want. When Part 3 includes a hidden boss fight with a sealed up Almighty Shinra kept below Midgar... Well. Everyone will know the truth.
oh cmon, FFT, FF
And FFVII and FFX wouldn't be the first entry to take place in the same universe.

FF Tactics->Vagrant Story->FFXII say "what's up." They've been in a shared universe since 1998.

except both those games share common themes, aesthetics, musical flavour.. it feels natural for them to be part of the same universe, not the same with FFVII and FFX.

I guess you could say Nanaki's race comes from Kihmari's though, and that Sin is also a kind of devouring alien.

 

[Noble0ne]

FF Tactics->Vagrant Story->FFXII say "what's up." They've been in a shared universe since 1998.

Further more each of those game are explicitly stated to be in Ivalice from the start if im not mistaken. Not a later bread crumb vauge plot addition

 

[Wol]

Dude, even KH fans complain about it's convoluted plot. And everything is pointing to FFVIIR going the same direction.

It kinda became a parody for some of them, do you know Just a Pancake's youtube channel.. is amazing lol

 

[Noble0ne]

...not the same with FFVII and FFX.

I guess you could say Nanaki's race comes from Kihmari's though, and that Sin is also a kind of devouring alien.

Nanaki's race from Kihmari's... Looool

I'm eating all this this junk food up.

Feed me (7•_•)7 *°'`

 

[Makoeyes987]

Further more each of those game are explicitly stated to be in Ivalice from the start if im not mistaken. Not a later bread crumb vauge plot addition

No, Vagrant Story did not ever state its in Ivalice. It takes place in the Valendian Kingdom and specifically, the city of Lea Monde. The hints of Vagrant Story taking place in Ivalice are just as loose, hidden and further expanded as Spira being connected to VII. It was only ever outright confirmed in 2004. Just like FFX, it's a thread that was woven over the years since.

except both those games share common themes, aesthetics, musical flavour.. it feels natural for them to be part of the same universe, not the same with FFVII and FFX.

I guess you could say Nanaki's race comes from Kihmari's though, and that Sin is also a kind of devouring alien.

FFX and FFVII definitely share common themes and certain aesthetics. And they have the same composer so lol not sure what you mean. Sin is also not an alien. It's a being of pure pyreflies condensed and shaped into the being that exists in X. Jenova is a foreign alien from space. And I think the differences between a bipedal blue horned lion creature versus a red, flaming tailed, quadraped wolf-like creature are apparent.

It kinda became a parody for some of them, do you know Just a Pancake's youtube channel.. is amazing lol

They also have a channel just like it for Final Fantasy. I guess that means it's parody too.

Dude, even KH fans complain about it's convoluted plot. And everything is pointing to FFVIIR going the same direction.

There's a difference between "convoluted" and "ambiguous." We don't know what direction (if any) the time manipulation will go towards now. We know it has been concluded for now. And that's certainly not the same thing. How convoluted Kingdom Hearts is depends on who you ask, just like anything else. Yet given they're a fan, they'll probably say they enjoy it nonetheless.

 

[Wol]

They definitely do share some themes (as all FFs do), just not enough to justify a forced connection; even if they use the same composers and designers, their works are significantly different between FFVII-FFX; this difference is felt way less in Matsuno's games.

Curious to watch a FF parody channel, if you have the link. Either way, personally FF is way more digestible, and I see players criticising KH way more than FF... maybe theres a reason or we are too dumb to understand Nomura's genius. /s

 

[Eerie]

Since I'm not sure where this takes place, here is the secret boss that someone beat on reddit, and what he drops.

That necklace is going to make people talk even more now, I'm out (still reading though, a lot of theories are great and I'm having a lot of fun reading :') thanks guys!).

 

[MelodicEnigma]

No, Vagrant Story did not ever state its in Ivalice. It takes place in the Valendian Kingdom and specifically, the city of Lea Monde. The hints of Vagrant Story taking place in Ivalice are just as loose, hidden and further expanded as Spira being connected to VII. It was only ever outright confirmed in 2004. Just like FFX, it's a thread that was woven over the years since.

Except for Vagrant Story, this was established specifically from FFXII's creation, and with being firmly established to the Final Fantasy series, this wasn't even the intention for when Vagrant Story was created. Vagrant Story being connected to Ivalice is very much so more of a retcon as opposed to this elaborate thread that was purposely woven. Any suggestions towards Ivalice was originally for the sake of easter egg-like references.

The application of the "Ivalice Alliance" for every corresponding game, however, is on a completely different level than that of any connection that can be speculated on between FFVII and FFX. The games that utilize the Ivalice world specifically are written to be in the same world at different time periods, along with using the similar elements that are more unique to them than any shared with other FF games. One could even think of the similar/shared mythos of FFXIII and Type-0. They're not necessarily in the same world/universe, but they intentionally share more of their mythos that goes beyond common themes, enemies, and concepts for what you would find typically between most, if not all Final Fantasy games. The interest of the FFVII and FFX connection is much less than that, even, but still more on what would still be conducive of an Easter Egg for the sake of interest and fun speculation. Creators can just do these things without the intention of strict continuity adherence.

I'm not saying it isn't possible or anything—they literally can do whatever they want. But I will also be pretty strict in saying what is there isn't enough to bypass simply being an interesting reference.

 

[Darudius]

So why are people saying that FFVII and FFX are linked? I clearly missed something so excuse my ignorance.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They definitely do share some themes (as all FFs do), just not enough to justify a forced connection; even if they use the same composers and designers, their works are significantly different between FFVII-FFX; this difference is felt way less in Matsuno's games.

How is it felt less when Vagrant Story wasn't even close to a political, war driven story with the trappings of Final Fantasy? Vagrant Story was an entirely different kind of game, with a single protagonist about a death cult in a demonic city of death. There's nothing like Final Fantasy or Tactics in that.

FFX and FFVII share numerous design aesthetics, the same spiritual concepts and mechanics of the afterlife, and even materia. They share way more in common than Vagrant Story, and FF Tactics and XII.

FFX also is written by the same people.

Curious to watch a FF parody channel, if you have the link. Either way, personally FF is way more digestible, and I see players criticising KH way more than FF... maybe theres a reason or we are too dumb to understand Nomura's genius.

Google YouTube's Trueblade Seeker.

And that's just a function of the circles you run with. You seem to think Kingdom Hearts is lesser yet you aren't aware of how just wide an audience and fan base it holds and how it overlaps quite heavily with FF. Trying to somehow say it's less "digestible" or inferior at its stories is like insulting Super Sentai as Power Rangers trash while unaware of the fact there's a whole subculture and fan base devoted to tokustatsu.

Except for Vagrant Story, this was established specifically from FFXII's creation, and with being firmly established to the Final Fantasy series, this wasn't even the intention for when Vagrant Story was created. Vagrant Story being connected to Ivalice is very much so more of a retcon as opposed to this elaborate thread that was purposely woven. Any suggestions towards Ivalice was originally for the sake of easter egg-like references.

Right, I know it was established by the Ivalice branding combined with Matsuno's own words, however until then, the same scope of limited Easter egg-like references was all that existed between the two games, FF Tactics and Vagrant Story. Matsuno confirming the connection in an interview is also no different than Kitase and Nojima confirming the connection between Shinra and VII's Shinra as well. Given the fact we're now seeing Shinra (or someone heavily connected to him) pop up in a historical exhibit of Shinra's history... There's definitely something there. How many times does an Easter Egg get laid before it hatches, one has to ask. Etc etc.

Since I'm not sure where this takes place, here is the secret boss that someone beat on reddit, and what he drops.

That necklace is going to make people talk even more now, I'm out (still reading though, a lot of theories are great and I'm having a lot of fun reading :') thanks guys!).

Finally someone found it.

That's the Proud Clad Prototype. Heidegger and Scarlet's pride and joy.

That accessory sounds like one similar in Type 0. Interesting.

 

[oty]

Xemnas is one of the most badass antagonists of KH so

Definitely not because of those stupid lines. In fact, those kind of sentences only took away from his, and many KH villains, badassery. Just like Xenahort and his fiddly hands, that literally became a meme.

And people can pretend KH is cringe/bad/etc all they like, but the fact remains it is one of the most popular RPG series and it is heavily inspired by FF, and vice versa. It has acted as a bridge to FF for over a decade and embedded itself into a lot of fan's minds given their connection. It sounds so "Get off my lawn" trying to dismissively use KH as an insult when there's probably half of FF fans or more that are into this series thanks to KH now.

We are specifically talking about KH's most criticised points. Pretty much, "KH's bad things". Nothing to do with KH making people get to know FF, or the importance of it in jRPGs.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Right, I know it was established by the Ivalice branding combined with Matsuno's own words, however until then, the same scope of limited Easter egg-like references was all that existed between the two games, FF Tactics and Vagrant Story. Matsuno confirming the connection in an interview is also no different than Kitase and Nojima confirming the connection between Shinra and VII's Shinra as well. Given the fact we're now seeing Shinra (or someone heavily connected to him) pop up in a historical exhibit of Shinra's history... There's definitely something there. How many times does an Easter Egg get laid before it hatches, one has to ask.

I mean, Vagrant Story and Tactics connection was more established by FFXII than by Tactics, with even the interviews also point out Vagrant Story being "away" from the Tactics universe. The Easter Eggs were abundant though, and for FFVII/FFX, I think believing that it will hatch into something concrete is fine. It just hasn't happened yet, and very possibly could remain a very vague thing for the sake of interest. With the expansion of the FFVII Compilation since FFX released, there has been plenty of time to hatch it in all of its glory—would have been fitting for the times, as well, considering Ivalice and Fabula Nova.

I ain't against it, but I'm not going to be preemptive either.

FFX and FFVII share numerous design aesthetics, the same spiritual concepts and mechanics of the afterlife, and even materia. They share way more in common than Vagrant Story, and FF Tactics and XII.

FFX also is written by the same people.

Ahh, depends on your use of "share", though. There are some that are much more blatantly established shared concepts, like between FFXIII and Type-0, while on the other hand, you have all Final Fantasy games that typically share to some capacity of similar concepts, enemies, themes, etc. (really, the things that make Final Fantasy what it is). If FFX and FFVII seem similar conceptually, this is probably not only attributed to being a Final Fantasy game, but also to that fact it is written by the same people.

 

[Pizzachu]

So why are people saying that FFVII and FFX are linked? I clearly missed something so excuse my ignorance.

There was a kid from FFX-2 named Shinra, and the Final Fantasy wiki describes him better than I could: "After helping discover the ways into the Farplane, Shinra examines energy readings and speculates it could be harnessed for Spira's benefit, although it would take generations."

Now there is a photo of a man who looks a lot like a grown-up Shinra in FFVII Remake. I think there were more tiny hints from other sources, but this is all I can remember right now.

Also, @Firstone33, please be careful of browsing 4chan. I've heard that it can be an incredibly toxic place, and I don't want any TLS member to be exposed to such toxicity.

Since I'm not sure where this takes place, here is the secret boss that someone beat on reddit, and what he drops.

That necklace is going to make people talk even more now, I'm out (still reading though, a lot of theories are great and I'm having a lot of fun reading :') thanks guys!).

Whoa, nice finding! That description of the necklace sounds interesting. I wonder why it was in there?

 

[Arianna]

personally, KH is the lowest point in terms of story. I find it to be of extremely poor quality and taste, and if FF follows the same path sadly Ill probaby lose interest like I did with KH (I played KH and KH: CoM and that was enough for me lol).

just not my thing.

Agreed. I played the first Kingdom Hearts and part of the second, but I could never really get into it. I played it mainly for the Final Fantasy characters and elements. I loved the music. The convoluted aspects, like the story was just ridiculous to me. I don't know, the game turned me off.

 

[Eerie]

It is to note that the guy said:

Also I should add, the surprise you get for winning the fight is that Chadley reveals he is a cyborg who is serving as Hojo's assistant. By winning, you have released him or something.

here, so the fate thing may be related to the assistant rather than yourself/your party

 

[Makoeyes987]

Definitely not because of those stupid lines. In fact, those kind of sentences only took away from his, and many KH villains, badassery. Just like Xenahort and his fiddly hands, that literally became a meme.


We are specifically talking about KH's most criticised points. Pretty much, "KH's bad things". Nothing to do with KH making people get to know FF, or the importance of it in jRPGs.

I mean that's highly subjective. How much expression fans may or may not like Xemnas and/or his extent forms are, is merely a function of characterization. There are those who love animated, expressive characters like Joker, Junko, Doctor Doom, Orochimaru, Green Goblin, Frieza etc. And there are those who like villains who are gritty, grounded and serious like Darth Vader, Maul, Hugo Strange, Darkseid, Thanos, etc. Xemnas and his lines are hardly "bad" given he's one of the most popular villains of KH. A villain's vocabulary expressions and monologue is essentially a reflection of their je ne sais quoi. It's what distinguishes them amongst their peers. It clearly resonated with a lot.

 

[Wol]

How is it felt less when Vagrant Story wasn't even close to a political, war driven story with the trappings of Final Fantasy? Vagrant Story was an entirely different kind of game, with a single protagonist about a death cult in a demonic city of death. There's nothing like Final Fantasy or Tactics in that.

FFX and FFVII share numerous design aesthetics, the same spiritual concepts and mechanics of the afterlife, and even materia. They share way more in common than Vagrant Story, and FF Tactics and XII.

FFX also is written by the same people.



Google YouTube's Trueblade Seeker.

And that's just a function of the circles you run with. You seem to think Kingdom Hearts is lesser yet you aren't aware of how just wide an audience and fan base it holds and how it overlaps quite heavily with FF. Trying to somehow say it's less "digestible" or inferior at its stories is like insulting Super Sentai as Power Rangers trash while unaware of the fact there's a whole subculture and fan base devoted to tokustatsu.



Right, I know it was established by the Ivalice branding combined with Matsuno's own words, however until then, the same scope of limited Easter egg-like references was all that existed between the two games, FF Tactics and Vagrant Story. Matsuno confirming the connection in an interview is also no different than Kitase and Nojima confirming the connection between Shinra and VII's Shinra as well. Given the fact we're now seeing Shinra (or someone heavily connected to him) pop up in a historical exhibit of Shinra's history... There's definitely something there. How many times does an Easter Egg get laid before it hatches, one has to ask. Etc etc.



Finally someone found it.

That's the Proud Clad Prototype. Heidegger and Scarlet's pride and joy.

That accessory sounds like one similar in Type 0. Interesting.

Its not about having the same bullet story points, I can easily picture a death cult happening in a demonic city in FFT or FFXII because the world feels similar. Vagrant Story also deals with humans summoning dark powers, betrayal, and has a medieval setting.

FFX in tone is really different than the modern sci-fi setting of FFVII; differences are more pronounced (setting, music, artstyle) , and the similarities arent as strong as the ones FFT-VT-FFXII share, thats why ppls first reaction to VII-X connection is 'WTF"

 

[oty]

You are absolutely right, but it's also highly polarising. Even diehard KH fans complain about villains monologuing about darkness and light at every chance. Granted, that's far from the only reason of why KH's story is seen as a "joke" by a lot of people, an attitude I dont really approve of, even if I understand why.

 

[Pizzachu]

I looked up what Götterdämmerung meant and I came across these definitions:

• (Germanic mythology) The myth of the destruction of the gods in a final battle with the forces of evil; the apocalypse.
• Any cataclysmic downfall or momentous, apocalyptic event, especially of a regime or an institution.

dictionary.com's definition:
German Mythology. the destruction of the gods and of all things in a final battle with evil powers: erroneous modern translation of the Old Icelandic Ragnarǫk, meaning “fate of the gods,” misunderstood as Ragnarökkr, meaning “twilight of the gods.”

What is that necklace...?

 

[Wol]

I looked up what Götterdämmerung meant and I came across these definitions:

• (Germanic mythology) The myth of the destruction of the gods in a final battle with the forces of evil; the apocalypse.
• Any cataclysmic downfall or momentous, apocalyptic event, especially of a regime or an institution.

dictionary.com's definition:
German Mythology. the destruction of the gods and of all things in a final battle with evil powers: erroneous modern translation of the Old Icelandic Ragnarǫk, meaning “fate of the gods,” misunderstood as Ragnarökkr, meaning “twilight of the gods.”

What is that necklace...?

seems like a pretentious name because its OP acc. The description leads to the ending, which heavily implies a new destiny / fate aka set of events.

I say this because FFVII never focused on gods, but since this going whatever it might be related to Minerva and the Weapons, I think they are the closest to being viewed as gods in the traditional sense.